Curse

Lopezus · Jul 15, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

An elite area shouldn't be easily doable by players who aren't very good at the game but have invested a lot of time.

An elite area should be moderately challenging by players who are very good at the game and have invested a significant yet moderate amount of time.

Now that would be balance ,wouldn't be ? Right, just maybe your memeory isn't your strong point so that's exactly how things weren't before Ub and PvE skills. Because they were exactly as i have written: skill<x hours you need to invest at one go, skill<ability to find a right guild, skill<ownig all chapters to make gimmick build plus skill<if your profession is totaly sub-par to existing efective gimmick build.

What guru community so often fails to see is that in many cases that is not just skill that differs "casuals" from "elite". So it's hard to understand for me why building impenetrable barriers between these groups is so great idea, personally i would rather see it as fluid transition which imo is possible given pve is balanced the right way.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 15, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If people can't afford the luxury of "time", how are they able to afford the time to max out Norn?

Because you do not have to get to max rank in just one sitting! But you have to finish the quests/missions in one go.

DreamWind · Jul 15, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But here is the thing - I don't play PvE to be challenged.

Then you bought the wrong game. Read the boxes. Skill>time. Competitive. Skill matters. All of these were SELLING POINTS OF THE GAME and are now gone because of inbalanced garbage. If you don't play PvE to be challenged, then you can hang around and do other things in game, but you should not actually be playing PvE...ESPECIALLY hard mode and elite areas where you are EXPECTED to have a challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see where the idea that if a person isn't challenged - there is something wrong came from.

You don't see a problem with ELITE areas and HARD mode being extremely EASY? Are you serious?? You don't see something wrong with new players being able to accomplish the exact same things as more skilled players?? Are you serious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, they don't just care because there is less of them.
They care less because even out of the people that dislike the current game - the 50% chance pf purchase means that every second player will still get it.
People who are pissed about "the baddies" are most of the time just pissed. We don't SHOW how pissed we are - outside of yelling here.
Quit.
In masses.

You completely made my point for me. Anet could care less because they only care about who buys the NEXT GAME, not who plays the current game. They can turn their current game to absolute shit (which they have done) and feel no consequence whatsoever. All they have to do is turn their current game to shit, and then make promises that the next installment will fix all the problems that the current installment has!! That is exactly what they are doing.

---

I am bit frustrated that the same arguments in favor of Ursan and other inbalanced crap keep coming up over and over, and almost all of them are completely selfish. 2 examples:

1. "Don't like it don't use it"
2. "The overpowered stuff like Ursan doesn't affect me, so it is ok"

Don't people realize how selfish (and bad) these arguments are? They are essentially saying "I could give a shit less about the health of Guild Wars...I only care about MY way of playing regardless of others". Both of these arguments are not even arguments...they completely sidestep and ignore the problem at hand and add NOTHING to the thread whatsoever.

People arguing for change are people who want it to make the game better AS A WHOLE. Don't people realize how many have quit this game due to severe inbalances? The idea that newer players can accomplish the same things more skilled players can do is ridiculous.

If you are going to argue for keeping things the same in the game, you have to take the "it is beneficial to Anet" stance. It is the only legitimate argument I have read.

As far as I am concerned we are far beyond WHAT needs to be done with Guild Wars, and are now more into WHY Guild Wars has changed so drastically for the worse.

glacialphoenix · Jul 15, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

As far as I am concerned we are far beyond WHAT needs to be done with Guild Wars, and are now more into WHY Guild Wars has changed so drastically for the worse.

I said this in another thread, and I think I'll say it here as well. PvE skills in GWEN were a mistake, and that can't be changed. I think it became an imperative to do HM and other elite missions only after the Hall of Monuments came out. Why? Because they transferred over to GW2 - and it's good for Anet if more people buy GW2.

This means that a lot of people who previously didn't possess enough skill to do HM want the rewards that HM will net them - Legendary Guardian, Legendary Vanquisher, etc - and their corresponding statue in the HoM that translates into stuff in GW2. The easiest way to do this is via things such as ursanway. Better players have other options and can choose not to ursan if they want to, but weaker players who are not as familiar with their skillbars and the game in general may find that ursan is the only way of getting them to those rewards - hence the prevalence of things that a lot of players consider overpowered and broken, the prime example of which is ursanway.

Better players won't want to play in PUGs, because that's generally what you see in there - people who don't want to play anything outside of ursan, or cannot play anything outside of ursan. So if you want to pug, you don't have much choice, and if you don't have friends or guildies to play with who share your opinion of ursanway, you get bored. Some quit. End result? Less good players that you can actually meet and maybe learn things from.

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Then you bought the wrong game. Read the boxes. Skill>time. Competitive. Skill matters. All of these were SELLING POINTS OF THE GAME and are now gone because of inbalanced garbage. If you don't play PvE to be challenged, then you can hang around and do other things in game, but you should not actually be playing PvE...ESPECIALLY hard mode and elite areas where you are EXPECTED to have a challenge.

But nobody here is being challenged.
Even when we do NOT run Ursan-like crap.
I mean I played PvE for 5k hours. We all agree that the weak link in PvE are the foes - and unless you develop this insane new AI - you'll never be as challenged in PvE as you'll be in PvP.
Yet I don't move to PvP. And considering that - I MUST be aware that playing a game that challenges me isn't what's in store in GW PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You don't see a problem with ELITE areas and HARD mode being extremely EASY? Are you serious?? You don't see something wrong with new players being able to accomplish the exact same things as more skilled players?? Are you serious?

Why would it be an issue?
The fact that some shitty player has issues with something that I do not - doesn't make the game harder for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You completely made my point for me. Anet could care less because they only care about who buys the NEXT GAME, not who plays the current game. They can turn their current game to absolute shit (which they have done) and feel no consequence whatsoever. All they have to do is turn their current game to shit, and then make promises that the next installment will fix all the problems that the current installment has!! That is exactly what they are doing.

I am bit frustrated that the same arguments in favor of Ursan and other inbalanced crap keep coming up over and over, and almost all of them are completely selfish. 2 examples:

1. "Don't like it don't use it"
2. "The overpowered stuff like Ursan doesn't affect me, so it is ok"

Don't people realize how selfish (and bad) these arguments are? They are essentially saying "I could give a shit less about the health of Guild Wars...I only care about MY way of playing regardless of others". Both of these arguments are not even arguments...they completely sidestep and ignore the problem at hand and add NOTHING to the thread whatsoever.

People arguing for change are people who want it to make the game better AS A WHOLE. Don't people realize how many have quit this game due to severe inbalances? The idea that newer players can accomplish the same things more skilled players can do is ridiculous.

If you are going to argue for keeping things the same in the game, you have to take the "it is beneficial to Anet" stance. It is the only legitimate argument I have read.

As far as I am concerned we are far beyond WHAT needs to be done with Guild Wars, and are now more into WHY Guild Wars has changed so drastically for the worse.

You know what's the problem here?
It's not that the players are arguing that. I mean - that only makes sense.
"I can't do it! Waah-waah-waah! Give it to me!!"
The problem is that A.Net is dumb enough to listen.
Why are you pissed off at players?

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Now that would be balance ,wouldn't be ? Right, just maybe your memeory isn't your strong point so that's exactly how things weren't before Ub and PvE skills. Because they were exactly as i have written: skill<x hours you need to invest at one go, skill<ability to find a right guild, skill<ownig all chapters to make gimmick build plus skill<if your profession is totaly sub-par to existing efective gimmick build.

-Hours invested into what?
-Good players don't exist only in guilds. It's just that one of the most vital and required aspects - communication - is seen much moreso in guilds and seldom in pugs.
-Don't need a gimmick build to win. Just to be good.
-All professions can find a mold in PvE, just some less than others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Because you do not have to get to max rank in just one sitting! But you have to finish the quests/missions in one go.

Yet they still have to grind for it. It doesn't matter if you can do it in one sitting: for each second grinding away, you can spend 1 second playing the game.

In their current form, the skills do not help casual players. It helps people totally decked out in leet armor who prefer to have their skill take the backseat to "time invested", and have the patience and time to *grind* their way to victory.

If UB was maxed at the start, if the PvE skills relied on attributes instead of ranks, I'd be much less spiteful towards them. But as it is, they're not even helping their intended audience (unless ANet wants to cater to people who don't care about their game...and at which point doesn't sound too far off, sadly.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why would it be an issue?
The fact that some shitty player has issues with something that I do not - doesn't make the game harder for me.

Maybe not in direct effect to you (since nothing ever impacts anyone's gameplay) but more directed at the game. Considering what's happened, I am indeed rather concerned by it.

DreamWind · Jul 15, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But nobody here is being challenged.
Even when we do NOT run Ursan-like crap.

Tell that to all the people who complained that DoA was so hard that is beyond playable. There were numerous extremely long threads devoted to elite areas being far too hard. Anet listened to these people and made Guild Wars easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why would it be an issue?
The fact that some shitty player has issues with something that I do not - doesn't make the game harder for me.

Its an issue because Guild Wars has now has no learning or difficulty curve whatsoever. It is simply: put skill X on your bar, beat level Y. Rinse and repeat. There is almost no advantage at all in player skill. Many people do not want to play a game where the line between veteran and newb or skilled and unskilled is so thin.

Ursans existence puts every player in Guild Wars in the position of "I must use that skill or I am gimping myself completely". That is a problem. Not to mention many pugs require it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that A.Net is dumb enough to listen.
Why are you pissed off at players?

I'm not pissed off at the players for using the skills. All the blame should be placed squarely on Anet. I am simply pointing out that many players who use the skills are giving completely terrible reasons for keeping them the same.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

The issue for me is that even though I am indeed challenged on a few occasions, the knowledge that I'm mostly losing by not going Ursanway is a bit disheartening.

So the issue at hand is: you're not losing because you're inexperienced, you're losing because you're not grinding up your Norn title and using UB. This wouldn't be too much of a problem if UB was the most complicated and difficult thing to use in the game. Unfortunately, it's the near exact opposite.

Crom The Pale · Jul 16, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

They way I see things is that the Story should be easy and doable by anyone with any amount of skill.

The bonus zones (FoW/UW/Slavers Exile) should require some skill but still be doable by the average players.

The ELITE zones(Deep/Urgoz/Sorrows Furnace/Domain of Anguish) should require a good team of well coordinated players to clear.

Some will argue that the "bonus" zones should be "Elite" but I feel even the average player needs some End-Game-content or High-End zone to adventure and farm for cool skinned items.

ON the other hand the Elite zones should not be about making massive amounts of cash. They should actually have small rewards, titles/HoM statues only. The reward is the fun you have clearing such a difficult zone.

draxynnic · Jul 16, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They don't stack. So the fact that they can't be removed matters very little in PvE - because ench removal just doesn't happen that often.
In a game that breaks all game rules - there is just 1 prot that is really needed.
[protective spirit].
And the ritualists don't have a comparable skill.
When you are getting hit for 400 damage - it doesn't matter that your 50% chance to block can not get removed.

[shelter]?

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

My suggestion on how to balance these PvE skills is I want the title part completely removed from the skills and go back to skills being tied to a profession and attribute. As it is now the title skills allows player to have more then 2 professions since a skill like "Radiation Field" should be a necro hex tied to curses. Usran Blessing should be limited to warriors and tied directly to the strength attribute.

Something I've been saying for a while. I expect Mesmers might be a little more favoured if things like Pain Inverter and Cry of Pain were associated with Mesmer primaries rather than being something that could be used with a zero-investment Mesmer secondary at most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Now that would be balance ,wouldn't be ? Right, just maybe your memeory isn't your strong point so that's exactly how things weren't before Ub and PvE skills. Because they were exactly as i have written: skill<x hours you need to invest at one go, skill<ability to find a right guild, skill<ownig all chapters to make gimmick build plus skill<if your profession is totaly sub-par to existing efective gimmick build.

These (especially the last, which IMO is the one that was really the biggest problem) are signs the balance is off. Ideally, all professions should be equally useful at the top level of play. Many of us were hoping that PvE skills would be used as a means to keep professions regularly nerfed for PvP (Mesmers being the most obvious) useful in high-end PvE.

Ursan, on the other hand, is a sign that ANet has given up on balance entirely.

Carinae · Jul 16, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The bonus zones (FoW/UW/Slavers Exile) should require some skill but still be doable by the average players.

The ELITE zones(Deep/Urgoz/Sorrows Furnace/Domain of Anguish) should require a good team of well coordinated players to clear.

Tier 1 Zones:
Sorrow's Furnace
Tomb of Primeval Kings (Everyone forgets Tombs, even Anet. Why is there no HoM statue for this?)

Tier 2 Zones:
Underworld
Fissure of Woe

Tier 3 Zones:
Slaver's Exile (need HoM statue for this also)
Urgoz's Warren
The Deep
Domain of Anguish

EDIT: Tombs could arguably be in Tier 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

ON the other hand the Elite zones should not be about making massive amounts of cash. They should actually have small rewards, titles/HoM statues only. The reward is the fun you have clearing such a difficult zone.

That's only fun for a few times. The Elite zones need valuable rewards IMHO, rotation rewards, like new skinned items every month.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 16, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The ELITE zones(Deep/Urgoz/Sorrows Furnace/Domain of Anguish) should require a good team of well coordinated players to clear

Since when is SF an "elite zone"? You can H/H it with relative ease...

cyber88 · Jul 16, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Then you bought the wrong game. Read the boxes. Skill>time. Competitive. Skill matters. All of these were SELLING POINTS OF THE GAME and are now gone because of inbalanced garbage. If you don't play PvE to be challenged, then you can hang around and do other things in game, but you should not actually be playing PvE...ESPECIALLY hard mode and elite areas where you are EXPECTED to have a challenge.

You don't see a problem with ELITE areas and HARD mode being extremely EASY? Are you serious?? You don't see something wrong with new players being able to accomplish the exact same things as more skilled players?? Are you serious?

You completely made my point for me. Anet could care less because they only care about who buys the NEXT GAME, not who plays the current game. They can turn their current game to absolute shit (which they have done) and feel no consequence whatsoever. All they have to do is turn their current game to shit, and then make promises that the next installment will fix all the problems that the current installment has!! That is exactly what they are doing.

---

I am bit frustrated that the same arguments in favor of Ursan and other inbalanced crap keep coming up over and over, and almost all of them are completely selfish. 2 examples:

1. "Don't like it don't use it"
2. "The overpowered stuff like Ursan doesn't affect me, so it is ok"

Don't people realize how selfish (and bad) these arguments are? They are essentially saying "I could give a shit less about the health of Guild Wars...I only care about MY way of playing regardless of others". Both of these arguments are not even arguments...they completely sidestep and ignore the problem at hand and add NOTHING to the thread whatsoever.

People arguing for change are people who want it to make the game better AS A WHOLE. Don't people realize how many have quit this game due to severe inbalances? The idea that newer players can accomplish the same things more skilled players can do is ridiculous.

If you are going to argue for keeping things the same in the game, you have to take the "it is beneficial to Anet" stance. It is the only legitimate argument I have read.

As far as I am concerned we are far beyond WHAT needs to be done with Guild Wars, and are now more into WHY Guild Wars has changed so drastically for the worse.

Hmmmzzz.....if that is the case. we should remove consumables like e.g candy canes, armor of salvation oso. All these items also contribute to severe imba to the pve game. it makes wimps into tanks & party wipes is a thing of the past. if u wan to criticize, do it on the whole & not selectively.

manitoba1073 · Jul 16, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyber88

Hmmmzzz.....if that is the case. we should remove consumables like e.g candy canes, armor of salvation oso. All these items also contribute to severe imba to the pve game. it makes wimps into tanks & party wipes is a thing of the past. if u wan to criticize, do it on the whole & not selectively.

Ofcourse now you cant get rid of them as he uses them. not to mention shrine bonuses which have been ingame since near day 1.

Lopezus · Jul 16, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

-Good players don't exist only in guilds. It's just that one of the most vital and required aspects - communication - is seen much moreso in guilds and seldom in pugs.
-Don't need a gimmick build to win. Just to be good.
-All professions can find a mold in PvE, just some less than others.

seriously, what are you talking about ? It's like saying: ursan ? what ursan ? GW just doesn't look like this.

Game doesn't even check your skills because of it's unbalanced design :
- random group in term of efectivness totally sub-par to guild group
- balanced "role" builds totally sub-par to gimmick builds
- not having all chapters -totally sub-par to having all skill and secodaries at your disposal
- certain proffesion totally sub-par in pve then others

Ok, it's reasonable that things should matter, but now due to imbalance gap between them is far too large (of course i agree that closing this gap by UB is rather wrong decision)

Quote:

Many people do not want to play a game where the line between veteran and newb or skilled and unskilled is so thin.

So they only play to boost their ego ? What is so good in dividing playerbase in closed groups ? So was evryone mistaken when thinking skill>time means that even playing casually you can become good and skilled at the game given you are willing to learn ? Now many peopel think just otherwise.

fireflyry · Jul 16, 2008, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

So they only play to boost their ego ? What is so good in dividing playerbase in closed groups ? So was evryone mistaken when thinking skill>time means that even playing casually you can become good and skilled at the game given you are willing to learn ? Now many peopel think just otherwise.

I think you got that wrong.

Any online game will have skilled players and unskilled players which has little to do with player segregation or ego.

It's actually good for the game promoting an actual required skill level in order to achieve results or access content/rewards.

It's the very core principle of what makes gaming fun and in regards to MMORPG there HAS to be a divide between unskilled and skilled players else what is the motivation to attain or play the game at all?

UB goes against this core principle of needing skill to attain reward and replaces it with un-skilled repetition of content.

upier · Jul 16, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Tell that to all the people who complained that DoA was so hard that is beyond playable. There were numerous extremely long threads devoted to elite areas being far too hard. Anet listened to these people and made Guild Wars easy.

If I remember correctly - the problem of DoA was that it was pretty much doable by only a few gimmicks.
It was designed badly - rather then too hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Its an issue because Guild Wars has now has no learning or difficulty curve whatsoever. It is simply: put skill X on your bar, beat level Y. Rinse and repeat. There is almost no advantage at all in player skill. Many people do not want to play a game where the line between veteran and newb or skilled and unskilled is so thin.

Ursans existence puts every player in Guild Wars in the position of "I must use that skill or I am gimping myself completely". That is a problem. Not to mention many pugs require it.

As I had said before - to be able to Ursan PuG - you need to be max Norn.
Which means you need to unlock HM.
Which means you completed the game.
Which means you did learn what was expected of you.
Why should the players themselves set standards for OTHER players what kind of skill-level is demanded OUTSIDE of their party?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm not pissed off at the players for using the skills. All the blame should be placed squarely on Anet. I am simply pointing out that many players who use the skills are giving completely terrible reasons for keeping them the same.

I am sorry - but the reasons aren't terrible.
You just don't agree with them.
They WILL be terrible once A.Net comes out and says that the reasons stated aren't something that they will listen too.
Currently all what the "terrible" reasons are stating is that people are enjoying the game and that they do not wish a change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The issue for me is that even though I am indeed challenged on a few occasions, the knowledge that I'm mostly losing by not going Ursanway is a bit disheartening.

So the issue at hand is: you're not losing because you're inexperienced, you're losing because you're not grinding up your Norn title and using UB. This wouldn't be too much of a problem if UB was the most complicated and difficult thing to use in the game. Unfortunately, it's the near exact opposite.

Actually - if you are losing without Ursan - you are losing because you are bad (or better yet - not good enough).
The game ISN'T balanced for Ursan (meaning Ursan being "the best option" and the game being beatable only by the best option).
If there are players able to achieve what you fail at without Ursan - that means you are not good as they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

[shelter]?

Yeah, no.
Just no.

Sha Noran · Jul 16, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

And I remember the neverending thread about killing Mallyx, where for more than one month many self calling "elite" players whined that Mallyx was broken, there was some mistake from A.net and so on.

Then Racthoh came in the forum, and showed everyone how to beat.
For that occasion, he invented what is now called the Imbagon

It's cute how inaccurate this is; despite my respect for Ract, had to highlight this gem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

not to mention shrine bonuses which have been ingame since near day 1.

Umm... Shrine Bonuses were not added until the release of the Factions campaign, so either your definition of "day 1" is vastly different from mine, or your January 2006 Guru join date is more revealing than you'd like it to be.

manitoba1073 · Jul 16, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

It's cute how inaccurate this is; despite my respect for Ract, had to highlight this gem.

Umm... Shrine Bonuses were not added until the release of the Factions campaign, so either your definition of "day 1" is vastly different from mine, or your January 2006 Guru join date is more revealing than you'd like it to be.

Or maybe your guru join date is misleading and you just dont have a clue. You know the ones you knelt at before Factions was even released. like these
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Statues. OH SNAP did it again.

Lopezus · Jul 16, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

I think you got that wrong.

Any online game will have skilled players and unskilled players which has little to do with player segregation or ego.

It's actually good for the game promoting an actual required skill level in order to achieve results or access content/rewards.

It's the very core principle of what makes gaming fun and in regards to MMORPG there HAS to be a divide between unskilled and skilled players else what is the motivation to attain or play the game at all?

UB goes against this core principle of needing skill to attain reward and replaces it with un-skilled repetition of content.

No, you 've got it wrong as game doesn't promote skills nowdays but it wasn't pre EotN either.( reasons i stated in my post). It promoted dedication not skills. You know what there is quite succesful mmorpg called WoW which is doing the same but GW was suppose to be different.