Curse

Lopezus · Jul 13, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Perfecting balance in PvE content is a real challange, because you have only one side of equation: players and the fact that pve is meant and wanted to be completed. So it have to be both challanging and yet players should be able to go through it. Not to mention the orginal concept of gw: skill>time, so according to this in the ideal balanced pve content: team of skilled players with good builds should be able to complete all that devs have prepered. Such situation existed in prophecies where even hardest areas like FoW or UW can be finished be random group of skilled players in reasonable time. Of course players will come up with clever gimmick builds and find the way to go through it with ease using specific builds and then cry that game is too easy and they want more chalange. So we have place like DoA, which is way harder then UW or FoW and yet is atrocity to skill>time, because when you pick 8 skilled players with good skillbars: let's say: Rt h, mo,ele,ranger, necro, derv ,war,mesmer and such team will fail because area require gimmick build both in skills and profesion selection, so Anet try again to balance things in pve and introduce pve ss skills and they have imo rather positive impact, but seeing this Anet go all the way with this idea of balance and we have for exampple UB - gimmick build itself presented for each proffesion and tied to grind.

Sha Noran · Jul 13, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Perfecting balance in PvE content is a real challange, because you have only one side of equation: players and the fact that pve is meant and wanted to be completed. So it have to be both challanging and yet players should be able to go through it. Not to mention the orginal concept of gw: skill>time, so according to this in the ideal balanced pve content: team of skilled players with good builds should be able to complete all that devs have prepered. Such situation existed in prophecies where even hardest areas like FoW or UW can be finished be random group of skilled players in reasonable time. Of course players will come up with clever gimmick builds and find the way to go through it with ease using specific builds and then cry that game is too easy and they want more chalange. So we have place like DoA, which is way harder then UW or FoW and yet is atrocity to skill>time, because when you pick 8 skilled players with good skillbars: let's say: Rt h, mo,ele,ranger, necro, derv ,war,mesmer and such team will fail because area require gimmick build both in skills and profesion selection, so Anet try again to balance things in pve and introduce pve ss skills and they have imo rather positive impact, but seeing this Anet go all the way with this idea of balance and we have for exampple UB - gimmick build itself presented for each proffesion and tied to grind.

This is actually a relatively accurate analysis... except for your take on player skill level in this game. Unfortunately, even in Prophecies, the learning curve is rather steep; you're tromping through the Jungle with probably little problem other than getting lost in every mission, and then suddenly you're dropped in the Desert and asked to complete more complex objectives than you're used to, all while dealing with more troublesome enemies and time limits that make everything a little bit hard to take in at once. The ease with which players can be simply run past the entire first 2/3 (3/4?) of the game and immediately have the most powerful armor rating possible also did not help the overall player skill level, since many players do not even learn to play before they are ferried through to the end game content. Of course, few were complaining; the less hardcore loved the lack of unnecessary effort, and the more hardcore players enjoyed the ease with which they could avoid repetitive game play (or they were the ones doing the running... and making all the ectos, heh).

In Factions, this already spotty learning curve (which had originally been designed as a massive tutorial for players to learn how to PvP actually...) was completely abandoned; the level 20 content began basically as soon as you left pre-Searing. Again, many players were pleased, as this meant more for the veteran Prophecies player to sink his teeth into; in reality this left many players dropped onto a level 20 character without sufficient armor that they did not know how to play yet. Everything released or updated since then has only strengthened this as the status quo.

All of that said, I was really only interested in saying that you absolutely can play any area of the game with 8 skilled players in an assortment of professions (the ones you listed if you like, or any other basic collection of builds). The problem is that it's almost impossible to actually find 8 skilled players who all want to play the same thing at the same time; PUGs are typically horrid, for the reasons I just took the time to explain. Henchmen are really not very good, and heroes, while only ever exactly as good as the person controlling them, are impossible to constantly micro and thus do not equate to skilled players either. When you do actually have 8 skilled players, however, it is very much more grab-and-go than you might think.

Bryant Again · Jul 13, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

ANet really had a good chance to help the learning and difficulty curve in Normal Mode with the introduction of Hard Mode. If you wanted things harder, you could go to HM. If you were still learning the ropes, you could play in NM. Unfortunately, the curves for the normal players are both still very erratic.

Carinae · Jul 13, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

You're failing on the part where SR isn't a skill and 2 mesmer e-management skills are and an elite is and they are equal. (or in SR's case, hella better on 2 of the 3)

Boo-hoo. Warriors get 100 armor, which is both passive and doesn't take a skill slot. So, if a caster wants to match that he has to use up a 'valuable' skill slot. Clearly Warriors are IMBA. /end sarcasm

Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but then again, neither is yours.

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

This makes the N/Rt superior because Soul Reaping gives it more options that a Me/Rt and an E/Rt just do not have because they have to use slots to achieve the same effect.

N/Rt doesn't have 'options', it has 8 heals on the bar. How many heals do you need? You'll never see the case where 7 skills are recharging and that 8th heal saves the day. It literally CAN'T happen due to the low recharge times on the whole bar. Nor does it depend on the elite. Weapon of Remedy is not crucial to the build, it's just on there because it's the best option AFTER the power-heals are added. Dropping WoR doesn't affect the power of the build in the least.

There's also the fact that if it had actual options, then heroes would use them at the wrong time and in the wrong way. It's a fail proof bar because it DOESN'T have options.

So, you have 2 extra slots that don't make a significant difference, and an elite that doesn't make a significant difference. What's the combined effect? N/Rt is slighty stronger than Me/Rt, but that's only apparent in extremely contrived situations. E/Rt is flat-out superior, despite losing it's elite and an additional slot. It's not superior because it has MORE energy (which it does), it's superior because of the WAY the energy is delivered (which is better for a low cost spammable bar).

Your next post should not include the words "fail" or "bad" in reference to another poster. Your overuse of these words is clearly IMBA.

Crom The Pale · Jul 13, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But in that case, the "challenge" would still remain the same. You put together your team build based upon the area you're going in, and just swapping monster locations wouldn't change that a whole lot.

You missed the point, its not the locations of the mobs that I was changing but what the mobs were.

You set up your party expecting to deal with Scale and Mergoyls (hex heavy foes) and wind up fighting Tengu and Fire Imps.

The second part was to give each foe more than 1 build to choose from, so the Scale could be SS necro or Blood spikers, its a random selection.

This is not perfect, but its a fair sight better than what we currently have.

Another idea is to change the levels of monsters, within a set range, on each map. So outside of Lions Arch you might face anything from a lvl 8 to lvl 16(not counting bosses). They higher lvl monsters would be rarer and have slightly better drops.

Bryant Again · Jul 13, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

You missed the point, its not the locations of the mobs that I was changing but what the mobs were.

It actually wasn't too specified, but now I understand better.

Now, would the mobs be entirely random, like having any monster from the game appear on the map? Or would it be from a set list of monsters? If it's the former, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. But if it's the latter then players will still be able to build around all the possibilities they may face.

But it's still a pretty good idea, since broader builds are usually harder to set up.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 14, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

So, you have 2 extra slots that don't make a significant difference, and an elite that doesn't make a significant difference.

The point of a skillbar is to make the best use of every skill you possibly can. 2 skillslots IS a huge difference. One of those skills could've been a Res, which would mean another party member could drop their res for somethin useful. Necs get Foul Feast to keep the phys clean. Add WoR or Plague Sig and that nec alone can deal with pretty much all conditions, which means the rest of the team can drop their condition removal for even more skillspace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

E/Rt is flat-out superior, despite losing it's elite and an additional slot. It's not superior because it has MORE energy (which it does), it's superior because of the WAY the energy is delivered (which is better for a low cost spammable bar).

Far from superior. With 14 SR, an N/Rt really shouldn't be running out of energy. Assuming you're getting stuff killed fast, you're getting about 42 energy every 15secs. That's more than enough for a Restor bar. As for the elite slot, WoR isn't the only option - Spirt Light Wep can do a 200+ heal.

Leave the Restoration to the Necs and overkill-prot-spamming to the Ele's.

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Boo-hoo. Warriors get 100 armor, which is both passive and doesn't take a skill slot. So, if a caster wants to match that he has to use up a 'valuable' skill slot. Clearly Warriors are IMBA. /end sarcasm

You're right!
That's why we all have 2 pips of regen.
And rely on adrenaline.
And need to stand next to the foe to really hurt it.
That fits a casters description perfectly, right?

Mr.Bimble · Jul 14, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Cool view .... If it works NERF it. What a waste.

R.Shayne · Jul 14, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

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Izzy regularly consults with players in top guilds, so he isn't making these changes without any input at all. --Regina Buenaobra 16:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one that feels Izzy might want to start talking to someone else? Past failed attempts and the fact that they are trying to also balance PvE now I would have believed that talking to a PvE guild would have been logical.

If anything maybe he should post his changes on wiki two weeks before they are implemented (kind of like an open beta).

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Am I the only one that feels Izzy might want to start talking to someone else? Past failed attempts and the fact that they are trying to also balance PvE now I would have believed that talking to a PvE guild would have been logical.

If anything maybe he should post his changes on wiki two weeks before they are implemented (kind of like an open beta).

Why?
They aren't balancing PvE. They are buffing everything in sight so that we finally shut up. I am pretty sure a brain-dead monkey could do that.

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 14, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why?
They aren't balancing PvE. They are buffing everything in sight so that we finally shut up. I am pretty sure a brain-dead monkey could do that.

I'm pretty sure they aren't "buffing everything in sight". If anything its been nerfs to PvP varients of skills since the initial split. If they were only interested in buffs to PvE then why in the last update weren't shadowsteps nerfed for PvP only?

In nearly 2 months there have been a total of 14 buffs to PvE varient skills, with one of them being nerfed some weeks later. Not quite the buff-fest you describe.

I Will Heal You Ally · Jul 14, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

PvE balance LOL
First of all those changes would be perfect in a perfect world... Ursan won't get a major nerf because when you're ursan it doesn't matter which prof are you. In that way mez can get into any group, sin have more survivability and people can acctually progress in the game... Instead of the regular setup Tank+Nukers+healers we now have Ursans+Healers and I support this way because now eveyone can join a group.
As far as para I only see one build that makes para good and wanted in groups... Why remove that? I'd be happy if mez had a good build cuz mez aren't really wanted in groups... people rather have Daze+Epidemic ranger in a group then mez... so instead of nerfing why not give ideas for upgrading mez... I don't have a mez so don't think it's some sort of selfish reason.

I say, every profession should have a great build that makes them wanted in a group... Peace

DarkNecrid · Jul 14, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Am I the only one that feels Izzy might want to start talking to someone else? Past failed attempts and the fact that they are trying to also balance PvE now I would have believed that talking to a PvE guild would have been logical.

If anything maybe he should post his changes on wiki two weeks before they are implemented (kind of like an open beta).

She was talking about PvP changes. Anet only talks to themselves for PvE changes.

Also just because he talks to them doesn't mean he listens though the patch last thursday was a result of him actually listening since there was absolutely 0 bad changes.

Quote:

Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but then again, neither is yours.

Mine wasn't an analogy, lol.

Mine was facts...SR is > than both e-management skills in pips, and is on equal footing (or better than, depending on your enchants and attribute spec) with ER.

SR doesn't use skill slots.
ER does. (and it takes an elite slot)
E-management skills do.

Your analogy fails because if you're a caster and you need (and I mean, absolutely 100% need) +armor skills, you are probably doing something wrong or solo farming.

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N/Rt doesn't have 'options', it has 8 heals on the bar.

oic

[Flesh of my Flesh]
[Ghostmirror Light]
[mend body and soul]
[mending grip]
[protective was kaolai]
[resilient weapon]
[soothing memories]
[spirit light]
[spirit light weapon]
[vengeful weapon]
[weapon of warding]
[weapon of remedy]

nop no options there at all. Yeah they are heals (all cept fomf) but you'd have to be pretty dumb if you don't consider those options and consider them all the same. They all have a different utility and all are used rather differently. (unless if you're bad and just spam shit when red bars go down without thinking about it)

Whether you like it or not [Ether Renewal] is sucking up either [Spirit Light Weapon] or [Weapon of Remedy] which are both rather strong utility skills and strong options for a skill to keep your energy high so you can be more spam friendly, or you're using [Leech Signet] and [Power Drain] to replace [Flesh of My Flesh], [Ghostmirror Light], [mend body and soul], [mending grip], [protective was kaolai], [resilient weapon], [soothing memories], [spirit light], [vengeful weapon], [weapon of warding]. Yes, you can very well say that oh well you're just down 2 heals with various utilities, but you're missing the point. Those 2 heals are heals that are going to keep the party alive or provide various other functions, which all keep pressure off of the HB/LoD Monks, which last time I checked don't use skills or have an attribute which give them the equivalent of 40+ pips of e-regen. Can you make by with 2 less skills to keep your blue bar up? Yeah sure, but those 2 skills aren't nearly as effective as ER/SR. Can you make by with just ER to keep your blue bar up? Yeah sure but it still has its weaknesses. Can you make by without any of them? If your entire party is skilled and doesn't suck, yeah sure, of course you can (it's PvE) but you're Monks are going to have to mop up a lot more, and they might not have the energy for that if your team starts blowing up or getting heavily pressured. SR is a lot more consistent and guaranteed than [Leech Signet] [Power Drain] or [Ether Renewal], because all 3 have weaknesses or require something. Soul Reapings only weakness is stuff dying, which means if by chance someone on your team dies, you're still gaining energy to keep the rest of the team alive anyways. (this isn't very much of a weakness, it is always on)

There are other problematic primary attributes fyi so don't think I'm just wanting SR nerfed. No primary should outdo a skill in similar function (or in the case of Soul Reaping, 108 skills (and 1 it is equal to in raw energy gain)) on its own. Strength doesn't (no skill has its exact function of just attack skills), Expertise doesn't (no skill has the same range of energy cost reduction to compare), Divine Favor doesn't (nothing has the same effect skill wise), E-Storage doesn't (the only things that can raise your energy max are items, and yes I'm including item spells in here.), Fast Casting doesn't (nothing has the same effect really, in the same widespreadness), Leadership doesn't (though it is broken by effect really.), Crit Strikes and Spawning Power don't.... Soul Reaping and Mysticism both outdo skills tho. [Pious Renewal] is the exact same effect as Mysticism, and Mysticism blows it away always. That's lame. Primarys should benefit the primary, and yet Soul Reaping and Mysticism are the only attributes that really benefit a secondary more. Mysticism can combo really well with Orders since they are fast ending Enchantments, and Soul Reaping combos well with anything caster. The other primaries do have some boons for secondaries, but you will almost never see them used that way in any good way. You don't see Warrior / Assassin's with Assassin skills abusing Strength, or really see Elementalists abusing secondary skills with high e-storage anymore. etc.

Also skills are options anyways.

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You'll never see the case where 7 skills are recharging and that 8th heal saves the day. It literally CAN'T happen due to the low recharge times on the whole bar. Nor does it depend on the elite. Weapon of Remedy is not crucial to the build, it's just on there because it's the best option AFTER the power-heals are added. Dropping WoR doesn't affect the power of the build in the least.

Yes it does? It drops the power of the build because now it is down one less heal, which also adds some (armor ignoring) pressure, and frees up your Monks energy pressure by also removing some conditions too.

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There's also the fact that if it had actual options, then heroes would use them at the wrong time and in the wrong way. It's a fail proof bar because it DOESN'T have options.

so I guess a Shock Axe has no options because heroes know how to use Bulls Strike to land a shock axe unload combo and double knockdown? well okay then.

Not that I would know, I micro my heroes anyways.

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So, you have 2 extra slots that don't make a significant difference, and an elite that doesn't make a significant difference.

They make a difference on your Monks.

E/Rt has weaknesses that N/Rt doesn't. Granted, the wait on ER isn't much with GoS, but it's still a weakness, and it is still a lost utility slot (and I think a 200+ heal is pretty good but idk?).

Quote:

N/Rt is slighty stronger than Me/Rt, but that's only apparent in extremely contrived situations.

N/Rt has 2 extra slots, gains energy when things die, and gains more energy passively than a Me/Rt will from both energy skills on recharge (assuming an enemy uses 2 skills on recharge too) combined. I'd say the N/Rt is way way stronger than the Me/Rt.

Quote:

Your next post should not include the words "fail" or "bad" in reference to another poster. Your overuse of these words is clearly IMBA.

Fail. Backseat moddin' is totally against the rules of the forum man!

You need to stop thinking in 8 skill mode, and think in 64 skill mode. Potentially the E/Rt and the N/Rt and the Me/Rt can all keep the party alive, but the N/Rt is going to be superior (yes, even 1 skill superior) at keeping the pressure off the Monks, which is going to give them more energy to throw around in general, and in a good fight that is going to save lives that might have otherwise died.

Is the E/Rt still a good build that can keep the party alive, and should Ether Renewal be re Ether Renewaled in PvE?

Duh.

But is the N/Rt better and should Soul Reaping be nerfed too?

Yes.

I wouldn't nerf Soul Reaping without nerfing Ether Renewal because that would be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid and it doesn't take a genius to figure out all the N/Rt's would go E/Rt. They are both bad and both need to be fixed.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure they aren't "buffing everything in sight". If anything its been nerfs to PvP varients of skills since the initial split. If they were only interested in buffs to PvE then why in the last update weren't shadowsteps nerfed for PvP only?

Because no one uses Shadowsteps in PvE? It was a buff for PvE anyways, since now all the monsters that do use them are going to have an aftercast.

Quote:

In nearly 2 months there have been a total of 14 buffs to PvE varient skills, with one of them being nerfed some weeks later. Not quite the buff-fest you describe.

Wait til next month.

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 14, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Because no one uses Shadowsteps in PvE? It was a buff for PvE anyways, since now all the monsters that do use them are going to have an aftercast.

Hur hur i see what you did there, very good. So a theoretical 'nerf' to Searing Flames and Savannah Heat taking them to say 10 damage per hit would have the community celebrating as they can really sock it to those ruby djinn now?

DarkNecrid · Jul 14, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

Hur hur i see what you did there, very good. So a theoretical 'nerf' to Searing Flames and Savannah Heat taking them to say 10 damage per hit would have the community celebrating as they can really sock it to those ruby djinn now?

People actually use Searing Flames and Savannah Heat in PvE.

You do realize that the 2 things Shadowsteps try to accomplish (making your opponent's kiting useless and surprising him) have no purpose in PvE right.

Even the developers said they didn't make separate PvE versions because no one uses them in PvE.

So yea, maybe you had just a slightly bad example there.

kostolomac · Jul 14, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Will Heal You Ally

PvE balance LOL
First of all those changes would be perfect in a perfect world... Ursan won't get a major nerf because when you're ursan it doesn't matter which prof are you. In that way mez can get into any group, sin have more survivability and people can acctually progress in the game... Instead of the regular setup Tank+Nukers+healers we now have Ursans+Healers and I support this way because now eveyone can join a group.
As far as para I only see one build that makes para good and wanted in groups... Why remove that? I'd be happy if mez had a good build cuz mez aren't really wanted in groups... people rather have Daze+Epidemic ranger in a group then mez... so instead of nerfing why not give ideas for upgrading mez... I don't have a mez so don't think it's some sort of selfish reason.

I say, every profession should have a great build that makes them wanted in a group... Peace

I hope mesmers don't get such a build , I sincerely do.
PvE can't be balanced just by changing the skills of the players and their builds. General pve is balanced since a good player can succeed with any profession , a decent build for him and his heroes and hench. Elite areas are created in a way that goes against that , fixing that would at least bring some balance among the professions.

Crom The Pale · Jul 14, 2008, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It actually wasn't too specified, but now I understand better.

Now, would the mobs be entirely random, like having any monster from the game appear on the map? Or would it be from a set list of monsters? If it's the former, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. But if it's the latter then players will still be able to build around all the possibilities they may face.

But it's still a pretty good idea, since broader builds are usually harder to set up.

I would think that each map should have a set list of foes, maybe take the current foes on each map +2 from maps adjacent to them.

I would even go one step further and add in a single High Level foe from any possible region of that chapter. The idea being "look what wandered down from the mountain top!". It would be either in a very large patrol route or a pop up.

At the very least this would force players out of the current "load template X for map Y and roll it" play style.

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 14, 2008, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

So yea, maybe you had just a slightly bad example there.

Using your slightly bad logic

DarkNecrid · Jul 14, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

Using your slightly bad logic

It wasn't bad logic at all.

It is a buff in PvE, because players don't use them, monsters do, and monsters will have the drawback. Maybe it isn't a buff in the traditional sense of skills being improved, but it is a buff for the players.

Nerfing SF or SH would be nerfing the skills, the monsters, and the players. Shadowsteps only accomplished 2 of those 3.