Curse

Sab · Jul 09, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Resto may be so inherently flawed that nothing can fix it. There may never be a way to make the Rt/X healer an appealing top-tier build. Still, taking back the resto line from N/Rt is an incremental improvement. "Mo/X > Rt/X > N/Rt" is better than "Mo/X ~> N/Rt >>> Rt/X," even if it doesn't entirely solve the problem with rit healers being weak.

The next incremental step is to give the rit healer a curse removal and some useful damage-mitigation skills.

If anything, Rit healers - while not as versatile as Monks - they are fine as-is. It just so happens that N/Rt provides far superior energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Overall effectiveness is a complex function of a huge number of variables that's essentially impossible to model. Sometimes you can take a variable that seems to have a strong weight in determining overall effectiveness and use it as a shorthand indicator for overall effectiveness. That's what you're doing whenever you measure builds by reference to DPS or energy gain per second or any other single variable. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. When you've got something that appears overpowered on the basis of excelling with regard to the variable you're using as a shorthand indicator, but it's not manifesting overpowered builds in-game, then that means you've found a case where your indicator isn't accurate. If you're a curious sort, you can try to figure out why something that looks overpowered actually isn't. If you're not a curious sort, you can just accept that the indicator was wrong and move on. But what you shouldn't do is go around shouting "nerf! nerf! nerf! oh please nerf!" merely because your chosen indicator says something should be too powerful, while ignoring what's actually happening in-game.

An ability doesn't have to produce a large number of overpowered builds to be considered overpowered, but it does have to produce at least one. Right now we are looking at precisely one overpowered build, the N/Rt healer, and we are disagreeing about which mechanic makes it overpowered. You think it's SR, and I think it's resto not being balanced against monk heals with DF-like mechanic.

Assume for a moment that I'm right. In that case, SR has produced exactly precisely zero overpowered builds. There's no reason to go nerfing SR, no matter how good it looks on paper, if it can't make any overpowered builds.

Assume for a moment that you're right. In that case, SR has produced exactly one overpowered build. What then? There's two options: The option that you seem to favor is hammering the crap out of SR as a whole, and damn the consequences for the not-overpowered builds that take a hit. The option that I favor is a narrowly-targeted nerf directly to the one overpowered build so that there will be zero overpowered builds left. My way is better. Here's why: We want a diversity of top-tier builds. The more good builds there are, the better. Smashing SR across-the-board will get the N/Rt alright, but it will also hurt the curse and minion builds. We don't want to do that because it will, at best, reduce the diversity of viable top-tier variants within those builds, and, at worst, totally remove one or both of those builds from the top-tier. (I think that human-run MM's are right on the border of falling out of the top-tier, and nerfing SR across-the-board would probably spell the end for them.)

Soul Reaping provides too much energy too easily - this is the point I addressed to Carinae earlier and I'm addressing it to you now. In a sense you could say that I'm arguing all Necro builds are overpowered, but that's missing the point since I'm taking about the mechanic that powers these builds. SR is overpowered and N/Rts are the most obvious symptom because of its easy comparison with Rt/X healers. Again this goes back to SR giving too much for what you put in.

I want to encourage the use of active, more interesting forms of energy management. An example would be the use of Signet of Lost Souls on human players. SR should be toned down to provide an amount of energy representative of its passive nature, and SoLS should fill in the gap. Heavy users of energy will have to actually do something to fill up their energy, rewarding active play as opposed to "wand this until it dies so I get energy." This change also removes the crutch for bad players who don't have the awareness or the timing that better players do, and will not be able to consistently regain energy.

While other professions' e-management will still be viable, the Necros' core e-management - the combined effects of passive and active skills - can be tuned as to provide slightly more than the alternatives. This, combined with the ability to use runes, remains as incentives to play as N/ primary with N/ energy management.

The goal of this is to remove Soul Reaping itself as a crutch for bad players. Active sources of energy management should be encouraged, skillful play should be rewarded. While pointing at a low target and pushing a button might not be the most skillful thing in the greater scheme of things, at least it's a lot more active than the current model of waiting around for something to die.

cellardweller · Jul 10, 2008, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In general, in order to have "no need" for "overpowered crap" for the monsters, the AI would have to emulate human behavior and human thinking patterns exactly. I don't think that this feat is going to be achieved by a simple game company.

I'd settle for adequate pathing. All the fancy target choosing logic in the world isn't going to help them as much as the basic ablility to walk around a body block would.

Carinae · Jul 10, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

I've spent all day toying with builds and genuinely trying hard not to be biased towards SR and give a fair evaluation. I can, however, conclusively state that SR is NOT responsible for the effectiveness of the Restoration-secondary builds.

Introducing Carway: (Me/Rt healers)

Norgu:
[Weapon of Remedy][Vengeful Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Power Drain][Leech Signet][Death Pact Signet]

Gwen:
[Weapon of Remedy][Vengeful Weapon][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Life][Power Drain][Leech Signet][Death Pact Signet]

Restoration: 12
Inspiration: 14
Fast Cast: 4

Add any two damage dealers, and any hench you want. Healers not needed. I added a pure Necro SS and MM, but Splinter-Barragers would work, or any damage sources. Henchmen can be anything you want, but you DON'T need ANY additional healing. That's right Me/Rt! Finally those Mesmer heroes can get some exercise!

I then took these Me/Rt healers, went into Hard Mode and vanquished Pongmei Valley in 34 minutes with shitty henchmen...with NO deaths. Not convinced that was a sufficient demonstration, I took these guys to the Realm of Torment, again in Hard Mode, and proceeded to crush the crap out of mobs in Nightfallen Jahai. A friend then PMed me for help in Eternal Grove, so I went to help. I dropped the Mesmer with PWK and kept the Lifer. We did the normal 4-4 split and I easily held my side with ONLY little Gwen as a healer.

Neither Me/Rt was properly runed-out. Gwen had 13 Inspiration. They also had Illusion wands/focii. A correct rune set and a Restoration staff would further boost performance.

Next, I returned to Pongmei Valley (HM) and dropped the Me/Rts, instead using E/Rts with NO e-management at all. No monk healers, or ANY other healing. Furthermore, I intentionally played bad. I ran from mob to mob as fast as possible, didn't even pick up loot. Did not to rest unless absolutely necessary. We vanquished the zone easily.

NEVER, not once, with either build did we die because the healers ran out of energy. We did die a few times, but the healers ALWAYS had lots of energy when that happened. So, what's this say:

1) The MM isn't crucial to the Sabway in terms of e-management. (Sab was right)
2) Neither is SR. (Carinae was right)
3) The Restoration-secondary healing build is really, really strong.

Running it on an Ele primary with NO E-MANAGEMENT AT ALL or additional healing and we VQ'd a zone. There was some struggle with the Eles. Then I went back out and VQ'd it again with BloodRit enabled, not exactly strong e-management. Yawn, easy VQ. I didn't even try to add Ether Renewal, obviously it'll work great.

The Me/Rts performed so strongly I am going to use them on a regular basis from now on. They walked through HM ROT like butter, with the exception of the bosses. We needed Prot for the bosses. The Mesmers didn't run out of energy, but they couldn't keep up with the damage. I took one hit for 254 damage with Dark Bond up! (No, it wasn't stripped)

That should dispell any doubt that SR is NOT responsible for the strength of the N/Rts, although it does synergize well. The Restoration skills can be easily powered from ANY e-management source. In fact, the 4x interrupts on the Me/Rts give you something SR doesn't...actual offensive capability on top of everything else. (Because two Mesmers supporting the whole team in HM ROT isn't enough

)

Previously, it was stated that there was exactly one SR supported uber-build. Now there are Zero. People can point to ZERO SR DEPENDENT uber-builds, despite it being "godmode". Give me a break. If it was so abuseable, it would be everywhere. It would drive every other class out of business. Despite it looking so good on paper, it doesn't actually translate to that in real gameplay.

The only real solution (if one is wanted) would be to implement a cap on the number of secondary skills that can be used. Just like PvE skills, only allow 3 secondary skills on a bar at the same time. This has the added advantage that it stops ALL secondary abuse across the board. It also enforces the concept that secondary skills are meant to augment a build, rather than BE the build. Having 6-8 skills from your secondary necessarily introduces problems, especially when dealing with hyper-efficient healing spells.

You could also simply make Restoration the primary attribute for Rits. That also breaks secondary abuse here, but it doesn't address other e-management forms. It might introduce Spawning abuse. (I don't know off the top of my head)

I think the 3-skill limit might be the best option. The situation is really a symptom of power-creep. It's clear to me though that nerfing SR would do nothing but push he whole build to another e-management form and the situation would repeat. ...or we could leave it alone.

Turbobusa · Jul 10, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Difference is you actually have to bring Emanagement skills whereas a necro just invests in SR, which they all do, and have 8 free skill slots.

The restoration line is no doubt very effective but what makes necros so effective at healing with them is that they can run the same exact bar as a rit primary, but they can carry one using skills a lot longer.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Regarding Spawning/resto - you need to remember what the ritualists lack.
The guys don't have Protection prayers.
And it's because of that that the heals are numerically bigger on the ritualist - because the monky can prevent INSANE amounts of damage and then just heal up what comes through.
The ritualist on the other had - needs that raw healing power!
So if you were to "balance" resto by creating a DF-like bonus - you kill off resto. Because nobody in their right mind would waste 2 lines worth of attribute points to have something that will resemble a healing monk.

Like, for instance, using Diving Favor and Healing Prayers to make something that resembles a healing monk really, really closely?

My suggestion would still give them that healing power - the actual Rt would probably have MORE healing power under my suggestion. Splitting 12/12 Rest/SP, or 11/11/10 Chan or Comm/Res/SP should give a decent amount of utility and healing... and is there really any problem with making members of a profession actually want to use their primary attribute?

Besides, Ritualists do have a few damage mitigation abilities. Resiliant Weapon, Weapon of Warding, and Weapon of Shadow can all reduce damage just from the Restoration line. Communing used to be infamous for the party protection it could provide with Union, Displacement and Shelter, and maybe with skills being split into PvP and PvE versions, it soon may be again.

The gripping hand is that by making SP actually important to Ritualist healing, you can nerf not only Sabway but Carway as well, encourage primary Ritualists, and actually make what many call the worst primary attribute actually worth something. From a balance perspective, I don't see the downside.

(All that said, though, I propose a test for Carway: Replace those Me/Rts with Rt/Mes with identical bars and attribute allocations (put the points in FC into SP. It might make a tiny difference somewhere) and see if that build works as well.)

Crom The Pale · Jul 10, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I know I keep repeating myself...but every time I read posts in this thread it keeps coming back to the fact that secondary profession skills are far to powerfull.

I also still believe that changing the break point for skills(not all skills just those that we know for certain are being abused) will create some balance in professions once more.

Some examples of what I mean:

[weapon of remedy] change the Vamp aspect to 15...45...85 where 45 is at 12 Restoration and 85 at 16. The same for [vengeful weapon]

[mend body and soul] change too 20..60..135 again 60 is at 12 Restoration.

these changes would greatly reduce the effectiveness of RT secondary healing but would leave primary rits with 13+ in Restoration as very powerfull healers.

My numbers are certainly not perfectly balanced, just off the top of my head, but they do give a good example of how to better balance these skills.

DarkNecrid · Jul 10, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

If your argument that SR isn't overpowered because you took 2 e-management skills to make up for it then freaking L-O-L. There's a pretty big difference between having a 6 skill skill bar and an 8 skill skill bar with passive e-management that is very fire and forget. The N/Rt is far superior to the Rt/Me builds you posted, simply because it has more room for versatile utility.

upier · Jul 10, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Like, for instance, using Diving Favor and Healing Prayers to make something that resembles a healing monk really, really closely?

The problem is that healing monks - kinda aren't good.
The reason why resto works now is because you are able to run resto/channeling - which combines some pretty sweet healing with some pretty sweet offense.
You force people to run spawning - that means that channeling WILL be lowered - and then the guy isn't providing sweet offense any longer and has healing capabilities of a monky.
Which means that the rit performs worse offensively and can only reach the level of the worse monky option.
The rit dies.
The necro moves on to the /Mo secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

If your argument that SR isn't overpowered because you took 2 e-management skills to make up for it then freaking L-O-L. There's a pretty big difference between having a 6 skill skill bar and an 8 skill skill bar with passive e-management that is very fire and forget. The N/Rt is far superior to the Rt/Me builds you posted, simply because it has more room for versatile utility.

That's just plain rude!
Bad, bad, BAD DN!
BAD!
(Yeah you know I am laughing on the inside at the results of the "test". Well - on the outside also ...)

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Having interrupts on heroes is useful. While they provide energy management as well, at least in some areas having two interrupts may even be more useful than whatever else you'd be replacing them with.

Car's point is that Ritualist secondaries are still powerful without needing to be fuelled by SR.

EDIT Since upier posted while I was posting:

Without needing Spawning Power, you could have 12 Channeling and 12 Restoration.

With needing Spawning Power, you can have 11-10-10. Or 11-11-8. You lose one, maybe two, ranks off your skill. To compensate, you have whatever bonus Spawning Power grants, which I'm sure can be tweaked to be at least as strong as the skill previously was. And note that I'd included the possibility in my original proposal of damaging skills being improved by Spawning Power.

I'm quite sure it's possible to make the proposed tweaks and leave Chan/Res Rits at least as powerful as they are now.

DarkNecrid · Jul 10, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

A good part of why Resto works now (besides Ritualists being Damage/Healing whilst Monks are Healing/Prot as hybrids) also has to do with them having a heal that is just 5-15 hp shy of a healing prayers elite too.

Quote:

Car's point is that Ritualist secondaries are still powerful without needing to be fuelled by SR.

That's great, let me know when that negates SR being passive, fire and forget, providing superior flexible utility to N/Rt's that Rt/X won't have (hint: 2 interrupts is about as flexible as a piece of wood.).

If you can find me a Rt/X build that outdoes N/Rt and has all 8 skills free doing its job and not trying to make blue bar not run out, and does an equal if not better job, then I'll agree.

Until then, you're just trying to make up for not having SR, and in the process sacrificing way too much utility to do so. N/Rts > Rt/X.

Of course you can make Rt/X's "still powerful", but like hell if it's close to the same power. I could go into a huge rant about how its PvE yada yada yada and how you don't need the best thing obviously, but the topic of the thread is PvE Balance, and therefore I am applying balance processes and thoughts, and just because you found a way that is "still powerful" doesn't negate something else being "overpowered", and way better.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

We're getting back to the question of looking at just how much difference it's actually making. The point has been made that if SR was really so powerful, we'd see other secondaries being powered by Soul Reaping. In general, we don't. Does that mean that the problem is with Soul Reaping, or that the problem is that the Ritualist primary is just so underpar, and other Rit skills so secondary-friendly that you might as well grab another primary instead, and that nerfing SR into the ground will just cause peaople to make, say, E/Rts instead.

Regarding the extra utility provided by classic Sabway - if you only use one of the Carway heroes, you replace a party heal and and a combined condition removal/energy management skill with two interrupts. There are plenty of locations where I'd make that trade.

On rebalancing Rit skills to be reinforced with Spawning Power: Let's say you reduce the power of affected skills by 15%, and had Spawning Power improve affected skills by 3% per point. Now, the nature of the maths involved means that it will take more than 5 ranks in Spawning Power to break even again, but at around 8-10 ranks you've probably made up for the one or two points you've lost in Channeling and Restoration.

upier · Jul 10, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

On rebalancing Rit skills to be reinforced with Spawning Power: Let's say you reduce the power of affected skills by 15%, and had Spawning Power improve affected skills by 3% per point. Now, the nature of the maths involved means that it will take more than 5 ranks in Spawning Power to break even again, but at around 8-10 ranks you've probably made up for the one or two points you've lost in Channeling and Restoration.

Now run 13 Spawn / 14 Channeling with Destructive Was Glaive.

draxynnic · Jul 10, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

It would be interesting to see. I was just giving one example of a set of numbers, and it might turn out to be overbalanced when going fully offensive with that build. But maybe all that would be needed to prevent that is to tweak the numbers.

Or maybe you don't include damaging spells in there. Run 12/10/8 Channeling/Restoration/SP, with at least minor runes in each. Your healing skills still come out as being improved by 8% over what they were for 10 ranks before... which isn't quite enough to make up for not having 12, but it might be possible to tweak the numbers further so that it is.

Zebideedee · Jul 10, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I soo hope Ursan gets changed, it's really starting to annoy me, everywhere I go in EotN all I hear is....

"R10 Ursan lfg!"
"R9 Ursan lfg for Duncan"
"R10 Ursan lfg to go to the supermarket"
"R8 Ursan, lfg to put butter on my toast"

Sigh!

kratimas · Jul 10, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

If you don't like the skills don't use them, it is really that simple!

DarkNecrid · Jul 10, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by kratimas

If you don't like the skills don't use them, it is really that simple!

o hai this is the balance thread if you want to ignore balance issues and not contribute anything to the topic you should probably go to the QQ thread.

ignoring stuff isn't balancing anything.

Bryant Again · Jul 10, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When we are able to be aware of the foes - they are aware of us!
The random event would be that when you enter the area - a certain number of groups are randomly assigned with aggressive behavior.
That means that random teams would attack you - rather then waiting to be attacked, or they could be more aggressive in terms of following you ...
(This would of course require some testing - so that the mandatory part of the game would be a bit less random - otherwise you might get really bad random spawns all the time - which could prevent people from completing the game. Because it wouldn't be fun if you'd spawn into a map - only to be greeted by 5 teams attacking you!)

Yes, it would require a lot of testing: Being in the middle of fighting a group only to be greeted by another group can be more of a pain in the ass than a "challenge" as you've mentioned down below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You want foes that are semi-dumb. Because you want the people to get through. But I don't feel that they need to be THIS dumb.

Exactly. You want a boost to the AI, but no matter what you do the computer will still be at a disadvantage, hence the "overpowered crap". A fix here and there wouldn't hurt, but as such it won't help a whole lot either as shown below. That's why I suggest an easier and more flexible NM so players can experience the game without experiencing a whole lot of the "unfairness", as seen in most other successful games.

Granted, it would allow the players the opportunity to learn more from the monsters if they were better set up, but it's hard to determine if players learn anything from them at all. Players mostly learn from other players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Touché.
But this should also mean that there should be no reason to introduce monster skills.

There would be no need to introduce monster skills if the monster AI were on a much more coherently fair level. But even then it would still leave a lot to be desired.

More than anything, more than the "thoughtful builds" we have gone up against or the better team compositions ANet's implemented, most of the difficulty and challenge in the current game lies in the monsters being "overpowered". While it's not as thoughtful as adding challenge through improved AI, there's still much to learn from it. Unless you start off on the exact right foot (which is very rare), more damage and health from the enemies means more consequences. When you reach a point where you're "getting toast", you look at what's killing you and what you can do to remedy it. When you've been cruising through pretty well and then reach a certain area where you're squashed, you look back and think "hm, how can I improve myself? Who's the biggest target here? What is it that ultimately lead to my downfall, and what can I do to prevent it?"

None of the overpowered facets possessed by monsters is "bad game design". It's the same formula most games have been following for years. Since it's been popular as of late, look at Diablo: You go up against a horde of monsters, all with infinite mana, and sometimes against a boss with a "totally *%#& you up" aura. Do people complain about it being unfair? Far from the contrary, because we as players know how to build our character, know what to do, what to encounter, and how to kick outrageous ass.

Another very good example is FEAR: the enemies possessed some of the most groundbreaking AI at the time of its release. Not only that but you were always outnumbered, going against bad guys who had the same health as you. But when people wanted more of a challenge, what did they do? They increased the difficulty multiplier so that enemy health and damage was increased. Even then, even with enemies being able to adapt and coordinate in a more sophisticated manner, did many people require a need to "even it out".

If you want a very popular example and since we mentioned Diablo, let's look at WoW: How are instances organized? Each group of monsters that you go against are set as "elites" (save for very few exceptions). They can kill clothies of equal level in just a couple hits and have much more health. While this is definitely "overpowered", it's not shunned: players do have to figure out ways around it, they have to figure out who to properly crowd control, and when it comes to the bosses how best to beat them. It's simply Blizzard following the standard method of presenting a challenge to the players and having them figure it out - and it's fun!

All in all, monsters having "overpowered junk" is the standard method of providing a challenge. Besides some professions not fitting in too well with this mold, a large part of the problem in GW is the curve of it at points in the game. But aside from that, all the "overpowered" monsters are doing their job: encouraging new builds and strategies, leading to people having to think about new ways to conquer and play.

Snow Bunny · Jul 10, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

We're getting back to the question of looking at just how much difference it's actually making. The point has been made that if SR was really so powerful, we'd see other secondaries being powered by Soul Reaping.

Monk - Before the change to Healer's Boon, it was altogether common to see a N/Mo healer's boon necro, simply because they could maintain their energy with ease while the monk could not.

Mesmers - fast casting is a pretty sweet attribute, providing a crucial crutch as a hard-res in GvG/HA. You could make a necro mesmer if you wanted, the only thing is that so many mesmer skills are 2 seconds, and in any pvp setting, they get interrupted.

Elementalist - loaded with energy management spells, many of which provide damage. Not to mention that many necromancers (Including Carinae) back in the day used necros to power N/E nukers. Carinae used one for SF farming if I recall.

The rest are physicals and therefore not wholly dependent on energy, or they're built with a minimal energy management attribute which fuels the low costs they have.

The type of class that requires the most energy management traditionally, the healer, has been commonly supplanted by necromancers simply because of SR.

Vazze · Jul 10, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Soul Reaping provides too much energy too easily - this is the point I addressed to Carinae earlier and I'm addressing it to you now. In a sense you could say that I'm arguing all Necro builds are overpowered, but that's missing the point since I'm taking about the mechanic that powers these builds.

Exactly. There is no need to test this. You can easily calculate/estimate how much more energy the N/Rt has over the X/Rt and you have the answer: SR is a cheap (few attrib point) and powerful (passive) energy management: possibly 3-10 times stronger than any other elite e-management skill in the game.

Carine: at a certain point any X/Rt healer is going to be energy restricted: if you spam 5 ene skills on recharge you burn 40 energy in 27s. This means that if your fight does not even last 30-45s, it does not matter at all what kind of X/Rt you are bringing. If fight is long, very long, ...even longer, than your X/Rt will be depleted and your N/Rt will be still full: that's what overpowered energy management does. It gives you energy. If you dont need lots of energy you wont see a difference, but if you do...it makes all the difference.

DarkNecrid · Jul 10, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Ya 3-10 times stronger if you're specced 9 in it maybe.

Let's not even go there if its 12 or above.