Curse

Crom The Pale · Jul 07, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

One of the reasons SR was implimented in the first place was to offset the high cost of some Necro skills as well as the fast recharge on some summonings.

[Chilblains][Lingering Curse][Order of Apostasy][Animate Bone Fiend][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Bone Minions][Well of the Profane]

Would Necros be better off if we increased there overall energy pool and nerfed soul reaping all together? Is the problem really with the energy or with the skills they use that energy for?

One of the bigest flaws I find in GW is the break point for skills as it relates to characters secondary professions. These break points need to be adjusted so that for 13+ attribute points you gain more benifit and for 12 and under much less. This would decrease the abuse of secondary skills and increase the benifit to primary professions.

You can't target only SR when there are so many Ranger/Dervish and Ranger/War and Ranger/Sins floating out there abusing their primary attribute. How about all the ele/monks constatly spaming Heal party?

Abuse of secondary professions is possibly the biggest flaw that GW has had from the start and has never been able to fix, even with massive numbers of skill nerfs and changes to Primary Attributes.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

One of the reasons SR was implimented in the first place was to offset the high cost of some Necro skills as well as the fast recharge on some summonings.

[Chilblains][Lingering Curse][Order of Apostasy][Animate Bone Fiend][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Bone Minions][Well of the Profane]

Would Necros be better off if we increased there overall energy pool and nerfed soul reaping all together? Is the problem really with the energy or with the skills they use that energy for?

The problem is that those skills would deserve that cost even if they weren't necro skills.
Take LC for instance.
It:
1. removes ALL enchantments
2. reduces healing by half for quite some time
3. recharges in 10 seconds

That skill DESERVES to cost 25 energy. It's just too good!
The same thing with other skills - the effects are just too good to be cheaper!
Otherwise something like [panic] could NEVER cost 25 energy. The mesmer doesn't have ES nor SR.

And then the necro is able to completely bypass that.
That's why SR is so insane.

Bulletdodger · Jul 07, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

One of the bigest flaws I find in GW is the break point for skills as it relates to characters secondary professions. These break points need to be adjusted so that for 13+ attribute points you gain more benifit and for 12 and under much less. This would decrease the abuse of secondary skills and increase the benifit to primary professions.

You can't target only SR when there are so many Ranger/Dervish and Ranger/War and Ranger/Sins floating out there abusing their primary attribute. How about all the ele/monks constatly spaming Heal party?

Abuse of secondary professions is possibly the biggest flaw that GW has had from the start and has never been able to fix, even with massive numbers of skill nerfs and changes to Primary Attributes.

SR is in my opinion alright in PvE.
GW is unique because of secondary professions and the ability to provide that many different builds take care of the same task. As a ranger , I just love to barrage waves of creeps , but I get bored so I like do some time on the front line , GW would be boring and unbalanced if only monks healed , eles nuked , necros cursed , rangers barraged , warrs tanked .
It's much harder to balance the game in this way , but the game itself is much more fun due to that variety that is provided by secondaries . I love this game because of the system with secondary professions , GW isn't GW without secondaries.

Sab · Jul 07, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The problem with Sabway is the 'sharing' of SR triggers combined with the manufacturing of deaths via minions, not the energy returned. I'll agree that this mechanism enables bad players to succeed. But we've already covered this fact and suggested closing both mechanisms.

If you're STILL generating unlimited energy, even with both of those shut down, then you're doing it with outside help.

The problem is exactly the energy returned. The SS and the N/Rt can both function perfectly without the minion engine, while the MM ends up powering itself. If you take away all SR sharing and remove the timer, the two former templates would still work verbatim. The only effect would be that the MM cannot continue to spam 10-15 energy skills on recharge and would thus need changes to its build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What YOU are suggesting is that the inherent ability of a Primary attribute should be comparable to the skills within a non-primary attribute. Right? You're trying to compare the strength of SR as an e-management tool to the skills within the Inspiration line (or any other e-management line)

I'm saying that's Apples-to-Oranges.

Comparing the special, inherent ability of Necros to the skills within attributes accessible to everyone is Apples-to-Oranges, and you know it. Yes, SR is stronger than Inspiration...by design.

And all of this utterly and completely neglects the fact that SR was intended to be the energy engine for MMs....whereas inspiration was intended to fuel...what? Nothing in particular, it's just a general e-management line.

The basis of comparison between SR and energy management skills is the energy returned. Consider why people run N/Rt healers and rarely Rt/ primaries with the same template. A N/Rt can pump out more healing because Soul Reaping outclasses Offering of Spirit as energy management.

Ate of DK · Jul 07, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that those skills would deserve that cost even if they weren't necro skills.
Take LC for instance.
It:
1. removes ALL enchantments
2. reduces healing by half for quite some time
3. recharges in 10 seconds

That skill DESERVES to cost 25 energy. It's just too good!The same thing with other skills - the effects are just too good to be cheaper!
Otherwise something like [panic] could NEVER cost 25 energy. The mesmer doesn't have ES nor SR.

And then the necro is able to completely bypass that.
That's why SR is so insane.

And where are all those people running this skill? I've yet to encounter some noob running this "too good" skill in PvP.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Not sure I'd agree with this but I'm only basing my opinion on personal experience, in that I struggle to recall meeting a player that doesn't own all four, as opposed to any factual evidence as only Anet would have those figures.

Then it would all depend on where you're frequenting. You're going to see the earlier portions of the game to be the most populated since most players only own one chapter. It's not a rule that needs to be proved via evidence, it's a general gaming rule-of-thumb: people who own all or most of a game's franchise are in the minority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Choosing not to use UB is merely a personal decision I alone have made to make it a non-issue in my game especially when considering I don't really care how others choose to play and neither do the majority of people I team with hence I admit it may not effect me as much as it may others.Tbh I see that allowance of choice as largely solving the issue for me personally, I never said it fixes or solves UB's effect on the meta as in fact UB is clearly more popular than my decision to simply not use such an over-powered skill that takes the fun and challenge out of my game.

What you're using is the "I don't like it so I don't use it, hence it doesn't affect me" argument. The problem with that is that it excuses anything that could go wrong in the game. You can use it to defend any exploit or other overpowered skill that you can think of. That's why it's never a safe point of reasoning to follow.

And just because it's popular doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Soul Reaping IS god mode for a caster.
Why the selective balance?

You may see me being adamantly against UB in this and many threads. The reason I am against it the most is because it is *the* largest and biggest wound in the PvE game. I consider SR more an exception - but no less a problem - because it takes proper build organization and function unlike UB.

Yes, there are a multitude of "balance" problems in PvE, many that we know we already don't agree on. If you want a PvE as balanced as the PvP, then you'll need to totally rework and improve the AI: There have already been numerous "balanced" groups, but nobody ever recalls them ever giving a challenge.

What I want is the largest problems to be out of the way, step by step. I'm not saying "nerf UB and all is good!". I'm saying "let's get this huge glaring problem out of the way first".

Trub · Jul 07, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

If I may state some observations I have made concerning player skill..and use of skills in this wonderful game I enjoy..

1.) Yes, we were all once new to the game..and were somewhat overwhelmed by the complexity, and amount of skills we had at our disposal.
We perservered..and learned by hit and miss how to use what worked best for us. ( BEFORE wikis!!)
2.) As we adapted..we discovered how certain skills complimented others available..and BOOM! We were accused of using 'Trinity' builds.
Ok, we could deal with that... (STILL before wikis)
3.) New chapters were added...Elite areas were added....holy cow..MORE enemies to face!
We adapted once again..but then...wikis came to be./
Templates could be given out like candy.
Players stopped experimenting with their own bars.
OMG...go to wiki!
*sigh*
4.) We adapted once again, at least we were STILL using our primary professions to play.
5.) Blessings came to be.
The game was no longer a challenge to us...ANet still wanted to draw in players....the carrot was dangled...and the farmers chased it.
I'm not 'bashing' eotn blessings..I just feel they dumbed down the game..ALOT.
6.) Players (that bought eotn) Aren't required to plan out their bars as much...i.e.: No more skill selections.
Meaning...why bother testing, and experimenting with a skill bar, when if I leech Norn points enough..I can max for a blessing?

I pray GW2 will uphold the tradition of skill>time...I can wish can't I?

Vazze · Jul 07, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

just dropping in, PvE needs balance just as PvP, that includes neglected professions (ranger, mesmer), overpowered skills (especially PvE skills) and attribs (SR).

kostolomac · Jul 07, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I don't care if SR can be activated every second , it's the great energy gain that no other skill can create that is overpowered. Lower the energy gain per monster killed and remove the counter. 1e per 2 SR for normal monsters and 1e per 3 SR for minions. Loads of energy if things get killed.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

And where are all those people running this skill? I've yet to encounter some noob running this "too good" skill in PvP.

I worded it wrong the first time.
The effect of the skill deserves the cost of 25 energy/2 sec cast time/life sac.
And those properties balance the skill.
And make it less desirable.

But that doesn't change the fact that the effect of the skill is still so potent that it deserves that cost!

It's the same reason why minions shouldn't be made cheaper.
Minions are too powerful to be ever made cheaper.
Even if SR gets trashed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You may see me being adamantly against UB in this and many threads. The reason I am against it the most is because it is *the* largest and biggest wound in the PvE game. I consider SR more an exception - but no less a problem - because it takes proper build organization and function unlike UB.

Yes, there are a multitude of "balance" problems in PvE, many that we know we already don't agree on. If you want a PvE as balanced as the PvP, then you'll need to totally rework and improve the AI: There have already been numerous "balanced" groups, but nobody ever recalls them ever giving a challenge.

What I want is the largest problems to be out of the way, step by step. I'm not saying "nerf UB and all is good!". I'm saying "let's get this huge glaring problem out of the way first".

Actually the reason why I rarely debate with you these days is because I don't feel there is much to debate on.
We don't disagree on the problems - the rift comes from the different stance that we take on how the problems should be dealt with.
If the player has some basic understanding of the game (and the people who lack this understanding were the audience for my question!) - you can not disagree on the problems:
There is a right stance on SR.
It is a problem.
There is a right stance on Ursan.
It is a problem.
There is a right stance on mesmers.
They kinda don't fit into the current PvE.
There is a right stance on other PvE skills.
They are a problem.
There is a right stance on ...

But how that should be taken on - this is where opinions come into play.
And you can't put a right or wrong here anymore.
And this is where we disagree.
And unless one of us caves in and agrees with the other one - we'll just have to live to agree that we look at the game (and it's creator!) in a different way.
It's that simple.
(I believe that although Ursan is a problem that SHOULD be fixed - it's also a crutch. And because I feel that A.Net will NOT fix the problems that Ursan was brought in to bypass - I feel it's causing less harm to keep it in the game.
Now the only way for you to prove me wrong would be to show me that A.Net has decided that they will take care of those problems.
Which is something you can not do.
The only way for me to show you that you are wrong - would be to show you that A.Net will not take care of those problems.
And I can't do that.
So we are not operating with facts anymore (= SR and Ursan are problematic!) but rather opinions. And we disagree on those.)

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Well, in that case, you're right. I can't have a discussion with someone who believes that ANet won't take any action against the problems that exist. I come to forums to offer my insight and help on identifying and fixing problems, not under the assumption that ANet doesn't care about their game.

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Well, in that case, you're right. I can't have a discussion with someone who believes that ANet won't take any action against the problems that exist. I come to forums to offer my insight and help on identifying and fixing problems, not under the assumption that ANet doesn't care about their game.

Actually - I feel that they won't fix EVERYTHING that needs to be fixed (rather then not fixing ANYTHING!).
And it's because of that that I would rather see them focus on problems that I find more urgent. Or just bigger.
If you fix the AI - you remove the need for PvE skills.
And I think that would be a better solution then just fixing Ursan.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

The only people who "needed" PvE skills were people who lacked proper understanding, skill, and knowledge of the game. There are the exceptions of "unfitting" professions, but those needed a better in-depth inspection besides PvE skills.

Then it would come to how you "fix" the AI (and if you even consider the AI needs fixing, which I agree in terms of having them scatter to destroy the holy trinity): By fix, I'd assume making them smarter - which would include having them be able to adapt to hundreds of thousands of millions of skill combinations, new skills, new professions, new strategies, etc. Not only that, but there is a massive list of misc variables that can determine the outcome of a battle.

And even then, it would still be just as hard to provide a challenge. PvE is mostly easy due to one reason: static builds. Not because of encountering the "unknown" (which you rarely ever do) but because the challenge laid before you twists and turns, but never changes. The challenge comes in developing the best and most successful team build for the area, and how will you use the best of it's abilities. Even if you give substantial upgrades to the AI, this is what it will always come to. Computers are systematic, humans are not.

mafia cyborg · Jul 07, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

this 3d makes no sense.

in PVE some skills are more efficient than others depending on mob beahviour and composition.
the balance between skills and professions is only possible by comparing them against each other (maths + pvp).
so complaining about pvp nerfs was, and still is, retarded. (as the SF fiasco even proved)
what pve players should concentrate on is what makes pve different from pvp :MOBS.
MOBS AI, buillds and numbers are the key to pve "balance".

some examples:

MOB AI :if mobs avoided traps ....trapping would become weak without an actual nerf to the skills.
MOB builds :with signet of disenchantment they nerfed enchantment builds without actually nerfing enchantmnets
number of MOBS:mesmers who have very few skills that affect multiple targets are penalized

Lothlorian Sassun · Jul 07, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

NERF NERF NERF!!!! Lets remove all skills in the game and have 1 skill that does 50 armor ignoring damage with a 6 second recharge and cost 10 energy... Just remove the 8 skill bar and replace it with 1 skill button!!!!! The Icon for the skill can be simply "GW" and lets Remove all attributes from the game. Make it so every class uses a sword and reduce all classes to 50 armor max with no insignia or rune bonus's allowed. This is the only way "balance" will ever be achieved.

/notsigned

Buster · Jul 07, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

The game is 3 years old and still players are concerned with balance. To me balance is what it is at this point and people should just continue to make due and have fun instead of trying to recreate Guild Wars. There are bigger and better things coming in Guild Wars 2.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothlorian Sassun

NERF NERF NERF!!!! Lets remove all skills in the game and have 1 skill that does 50 armor ignoring damage with a 6 second recharge and cost 10 energy... Just remove the 8 skill bar and replace it with 1 skill button!!!!! The Icon for the skill can be simply "GW" and lets Remove all attributes from the game. Make it so every class uses a sword and reduce all classes to 50 armor max with no insignia or rune bonus's allowed. This is the only way "balance" will ever be achieved.

/notsigned

The game is only 9 skills anyway in terms of PuGs in PvE.

Oh, and by the way, you just described Ursan if it was underpowered.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

The game is 3 years old and still players are concerned with balance. To me balance is what it is at this point and people should just continue to make due and have fun instead of trying to recreate Guild Wars. There are bigger and better things coming in Guild Wars 2.

We're trying to "recreate Guild Wars"? If anything, what many here have been advocating for is unrecreating GW from the sloppy and generic turn it's taken.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We're trying to "recreate Guild Wars"? If anything, what many here have been advocating for is unrecreating GW from the sloppy and generic turn it's taken.

Agreed. The recreating has already been done, and it was a major overhaul in terms of the game's content including... everything?

Trub · Jul 07, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We're trying to "recreate Guild Wars"? If anything, what many here have been advocating for is unrecreating GW from the sloppy and generic turn it's taken.

Exactly.
When I started playing 3 years ago..there were updates, balances, and counter skills added on a regular basis.
ANet made the attempts to balance as a known issue came to light.
Now, it's like they are sitting back laughing at the dying gasps of the die hard players, as they drown in that stagnant pool known as 'grind'.

GW2 is just around the corner..uh huh. How many more years?