Curse

Tyla · Jul 06, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

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Originally Posted by afya

nerf =/= balance

No, nerf =/= buff. Balancing isn't one-sided. It can carry buffs too.

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Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Do you actually believe that? Just a guess on my part but I am pretty sure PvE made this game successful but only ANET knows those numbers.

Nope. It was born as a competetive game. The PvE part of it just taught people the basics, and tactics in some areas. (e.g The Crystal Desert)

Yes, you could say that Guild Wars is more of a PvE game now, but that's because of the newer professions and the different content, such as Factions onwards.

upier · Jul 06, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

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Originally Posted by Tyla

No, nerf =/= buff. Balancing isn't one-sided. It can carry buffs too.

I think you are missing the point.
Just because something was nerfed doesn't mean it's balanced. (Or at the same time - just because something was buffed doesn't mean it's balanced.)
SF showed us that superbly.

kostolomac · Jul 06, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

PvE needs more random buffs and less nerfing to the ground , this way a greater variety of effective builds will be made.
I agree with Tyla that PvP was in the first plan at the beginning of the game , now it's the opposite.

Bryant Again · Jul 06, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

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Originally Posted by fireflyry

To me the answer seems simple.

Access to as much content as possible to as much of the player base as possible (especially with GW2 release getting closer) the end result being more people purchasing and playing GW for overall longer durations.

In terms of pure business logic it makes perfect sense to me.

Well, if you want to please the majority - the "casuals" - then UB wouldn't require a title. Nor would PvE skills.

As it is, it caters to a minority of people who don't appreciate GW for what it is and want everything with little effort. I can understand it helping the "unwanted profession", but for each one that is helped another is shunned.

fireflyry · Jul 06, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Well, if you want to please the majority - the "casuals" - then UB wouldn't require a title. Nor would PvE skills.

As it is, it caters to a minority of people who don't appreciate GW for what it is and want everything with little effort. I can understand it helping the "unwanted profession", but for each one that is helped another is shunned.

I agree with you yet would perhaps differ in regards to the definition of the GW majority being "casual" gamers especially concerning UB and PvE title-linked skills as you firstly need to own EotN and at least one other stand-alone campaign to gain access.

As such I would class, although I'm obviously assuming here, the majority of the GW player base as being average players in both experience and time played who own at least two out of the four GW products on offer (I actually struggle to recall meeting anyone in game recently who does'nt own all four) who can also justify attaining and grinding their way to attain the relevant rank and skill if they so choose.

In reality the average player has to have dedicated a fair whack of time to the game before high end levels, UB or certain PvE only skills become an option, especially in terms of being in a posistion to grind said titles, which imo elevates them above the level of being "casual"

I can't imagine the "casual" player really being concerned with the issue of PvE balance at all, at least in terms of the given "imba" examples.

Bryant Again · Jul 06, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

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Originally Posted by fireflyry

As such I would class, although I'm obviously assuming here, the majority of the GW player base as being average players in both experience and time played who own at least two out of the four GW products on offer (I actually struggle to recall meeting anyone in game recently who does'nt own all four) who can also justify attaining and grinding their way to attain the relevant rank and skill if they so choose.

"So choose" doesn't become too much of an option with PUGs. You may choose to only play up to rank 5 in Norn, but then you are also choosing to greatly limit your chance of finding a group these days. I also don't see much that's "justified".

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

In reality the average player has to have dedicated a fair whack of time to the game before high end levels, UB or certain PvE only skills become an option, especially in terms of being in a posistion to grind said titles, which imo elevates them above the level of being "casual"

See why many don't agree with this change?

Many who are in support of it claim that it's "for the newbies" when it doesn't help them in the least. UB doesn't concern itself with the casual majority. It's focused around an uncaring minority of players.

If ANet wanted more people to see the "endgame content" then there are a multitude of better ways to do so. It becomes harder and harder to see proper justification of UB. Especially so with GW:EN's now largely reduced price of around 10 bucks.

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Originally Posted by fireflyry

I can't imagine the "casual" player really being concerned with the issue of PvE balance at all, at least in terms of the given "imba" examples.

...Which is why it's seldom ever a good idea to take their considerations (which are next to none) at the foremost when it comes to balance and game design.

Star Gazer · Jul 06, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

"So choose" doesn't become too much of an option with PUGs. You may choose to only play up to rank 5 in Norn, but then you are also choosing to greatly limit your chance of finding a group these days. I also don't see much that's "justified".

yeah...because taking a smiting monk, hammer warrior, or blood spec necro is always accepted in holy trinity groups? oh, lets not forget dervishes and mesmers! /fail argument

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See why many don't agree with this change?

you mean on guru? ask the folks on ToA if they would support such a change to UB. oh wait, the h4rdc0rz pl4y4z are on guru, and of course, they know everything about everything. including how people feel about ursan.

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Many who are in support of it claim that it's "for the newbies" when it doesn't help them in the least. UB doesn't concern itself with the casual majority. It's focused around an uncaring minority of players.

and....your point being? it doesnt seem like the "uncaring" is the minority here. I beleive its the elitests who want to have their stacks of ectos, slew of tormented weaons, and stacks of armbraces who are trying to impose a certain way to PvE. If thats your attitude, please bring that crap to PvP where it belongs.

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If ANet wanted more people to see the "endgame content" then there are a multitude of better ways to do so. It becomes harder and harder to see proper justification of UB. Especially so with GW:EN's now largely reduced price of around 10 bucks.

not sure if this is a plea for "gimme gimme gimme" moar content please, or if your trying to impose your style of playing.

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...Which is why it's seldom ever a good idea to take their considerations (which are next to none) at the foremost when it comes to balance and game design.

because your ideas are much better, amirite?

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

yeah...because taking a smiting monk, hammer warrior, or blood spec necro is always accepted in holy trinity groups? oh, lets not forget dervishes and mesmers! /fail argument

The biggest difference between the Holy Trinity and UB is that the Trinity is mega slow, mega risky, and the "easiness" is balanced by those two. With UB it's much less so.

And as much as it "helps" (keyword since Warrior-only Ursanways are on the rise) the unwanted classes, it's still turning away those who don't own GW:EN or don't have a high-enough rank. Helps some, kills some.

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

you mean on guru? ask the folks on ToA if they would support such a change to UB.

The difference is why they would or would not support a change.

If there was a mega exploit that gave you a ton of K in say a random outpost, do you think the horde of people there would be in agreement of fixing it?

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

and....your point being?

My point being that you don't make huge and drastic game changes based off of people who have their own concerns over that of the game itself, or who don't know a whole lot about the game. If you want to call that "elitist" then sure, but I don't think it's too smart make in-depth changes based on people who have been playing their game for only a couple hours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

not sure if this is a plea for "gimme gimme gimme" moar content please, or if your trying to impose your style of playing.

Where did you get that? I'm saying that there are many better methods of providing people to see the current endgame content and allow more people into groups. I really don't know how to simplify that.

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

because your ideas are much better, amirite?

Since many of the ideas circulating around don't include breaking the general game design, I'd say yes.

Alleji · Jul 07, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Sorry, won't happen.

What can I say? PvE went down the shitter when PvE-only skills were released, and with the additions since then (more pve skills, titles with a bigger benefit, pvp/pve split) do you honestly still hope that anet will do a complete 180 and balance PvE? lol.

fireflyry · Jul 07, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Many who are in support of it claim that it's "for the newbies" when it doesn't help them in the least. UB doesn't concern itself with the casual majority. It's focused around an uncaring minority of players.

UB's popularity alone really contradicts this statement for me and tbh I only really see a small minority of people complaining about it, especially in-game hence I would assume that for every player who complains about UB theres a few hundred, if not thousand, currently in-game having fun with it.

I would however re-state I'm not a fan of Ursanway at all but my solution is to simply not use it although I do have the luxury of having enough in-game contacts to justify the choice.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

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Originally Posted by fireflyry

UB's popularity alone really contradicts this statement for me...

Depends on what you're seeing and where you're seeing it. Outside of the elite outposts I'm rarely seeing it used. The majority doesn't own GW:EN and even less know that UB exists within it. Things would be different if GW were over 10 years old, but that's not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I would however re-state I'm not a fan of Ursanway at all but my solution is to simply not use it although I do have the luxury of having enough in-game contacts to justify the choice.

Ignoring problems doesn't solve them.

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

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Originally Posted by Star Gazer

and....your point being? it doesnt seem like the "uncaring" is the minority here. I beleive its the elitests who want to have their stacks of ectos, slew of tormented weaons, and stacks of armbraces who are trying to impose a certain way to PvE. If thats your attitude, please bring that crap to PvP where it belongs.

GuildWars is a thinking game. You have a deck of cards and must pick any eight cards for a given situation. Then you must play those cards at the right time and in the right way. Ursan Blessing reduces this to a single "Win" button for all situations.

That has no place in a game like GuildWars. There is no "Win" button in Football or Basketball, or any other popular game you can name...for obvious reasons. When most people try to defend UB, all I hear is "I'm bad at this game and it's the only way I can win."

To that, I can only say: "Get better or quit". That's not the answer you want to hear, but it's the correct answer. It's the same answer you'd get on a Basketball or Football team. I'm sorry that you are in that situation, I know it sucks. EVERYONE who plays GuildWars has been in that situation. When we ALL started, we ALL sucked. We all got better at our own pace, some of us never did.

But to add a skill that eliminates the learning curve entirely does everyone a disservice. New (and bad) players have no incentive to get better. Veteran players feel cheated because the overall level of the playerbase declines. Everyone loses in the long term. The only winners are people who lack skill and are using UB to farm endgame areas.

It seems dishonest to call veteran players "Elitists" when the primary purpose of UB is to quickly obtain endgame rewards. Despite what many inexperienced players believe, there is no conspiracy to prevent them (or anyone) from obtaining prestige equipment. However, it is somewhat frustrating to see people with prestige equipment who clearly don't know how to play GuildWars, regardless of how they got it.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

The only source of understandable frustration I can appreciate more than most is being "denied content" because you're not skilled enough and/or lack the resources to see the elite content. However, there were numerous ways they could resolve this without walloping the game.

fireflyry · Jul 07, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

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The majority doesn't own GW:EN and even less know that UB exists within it.

Not sure I'd agree with this but I'm only basing my opinion on personal experience, in that I struggle to recall meeting a player that doesn't own all four, as opposed to any factual evidence as only Anet would have those figures.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ignoring problems doesn't solve them.

Agreed but I'm not ignoring the issue, after all I'm here enjoyably discussing it and more than agree it would be advantageous to have changes made to UB as I've previously stated.

Choosing not to use UB is merely a personal decision I alone have made to make it a non-issue in my game especially when considering I don't really care how others choose to play and neither do the majority of people I team with hence I admit it may not effect me as much as it may others.Tbh I see that allowance of choice as largely solving the issue for me personally, I never said it fixes or solves UB's effect on the meta as in fact UB is clearly more popular than my decision to simply not use such an over-powered skill that takes the fun and challenge out of my game.

Star Gazer · Jul 07, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

GuildWars is a thinking game. You have a deck of cards and must pick any eight cards for a given situation. Then you must play those cards at the right time and in the right way. Ursan Blessing reduces this to a single "Win" button for all situations.

this ended when factions was released. I took a year long break because of it, and did not buy NF or Factions until the end of 06. Prophecies was great: you started up on a low level area, and gradually encountered difficult challenges. not to mention it took weeks (for those who actually played the missions and did the quests...no running and playing causually) to get to level 20. when factions came out, they might as well made the character creation screen start on level 20. Thinking about builds was already dead.

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That has no place in a game like GuildWars. There is no "Win" button in Football or Basketball, or any other popular game you can name...for obvious reasons. When most people try to defend UB, all I hear is "I'm bad at this game and it's the only way I can win."

this made me lol. i beat all campaigns on 10 characters without ursan. my warrior (primary) has 25 maxed titles now, 21 of which were there prior to GWEN. I fail to see how I am bad at the game. Oh wait, I hear that elitist attitude again.

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To that, I can only say: "Get better or quit". That's not the answer you want to hear, but it's the correct answer. It's the same answer you'd get on a Basketball or Football team. I'm sorry that you are in that situation, I know it sucks. EVERYONE who plays GuildWars has been in that situation. When we ALL started, we ALL sucked. We all got better at our own pace, some of us never did.

I did get better. I grew from my W/E who used Meteor Shower and Fire Storm each time it recharged. I have been playing since the beginning, and obviously, I have had much time to learn and improve my game.

The thing about UB that people dont understand is that its finally getting people to group and clear things fast. I hate pugs. I never pugged since the beginning. I learned all that I know from my own skills and my own reading of skills. Hell, I didn't even find Fansites until about 7 months after release and that was only because a friend recommended the site. The thing that makes UB so appealing, is that us with time restrictions (aka, those with lives) can finally do end game content without having to leave the group high and dry.

And what makes it your call on "get better or quit." Why? I have never grouped with you, met you, or even seen you in the same disctrict. Why should I have to change my fun (however that may be), because some brats cant think to making their own groups?

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But to add a skill that eliminates the learning curve entirely does everyone a disservice. New (and bad) players have no incentive to get better. Veteran players feel cheated because the overall level of the playerbase declines. Everyone loses in the long term. The only winners are people who lack skill and are using UB to farm endgame areas.

Does everyone a disservice? Because people are having fun but those who are whining about it on forums? Also, why is there a "need" to get better? Self satisfaction? It's a freaking game. You can swing your epeen next to those who get high scores on DDR or Guitar Hero: It doesn't impress me. And yes, those who use UB to farm endgame areas do win. How DARE they have fun in a game!

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It seems dishonest to call veteran players "Elitists" when the primary purpose of UB is to quickly obtain endgame rewards. Despite what many inexperienced players believe, there is no conspiracy to prevent them (or anyone) from obtaining prestige equipment. However, it is somewhat frustrating to see people with prestige equipment who clearly don't know how to play GuildWars, regardless of how they got it.

Prestige equipment in GuildWars? lol, thats great too. all because of ub? So, my characters prior to gwen having atleast 2 sets (8 chars by the way) of 15k "repulse you" because I use UB for the speed? Once again, go outside please, and remember, this isn't real life. Its a game. You know, like have fun. I dont see anyone whining about Monopoly when you get a Hotel in the first two rounds of the board.

generalizations of the UB community are bad. I love how people think that ALL UB players have no skill and just want to spam 1-2-3-4. The holy trinity just adds in 5-6-7-8. Pathetic if you ask me.

draxynnic · Jul 07, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

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Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

I like the post, but one quirky thing about it that I don't like too much is the idea of removing the minion limit at 16 death, which would severely imbalance monster mobs that spawn minions (like summit summoners in slavers). This would ruin game balance on both the monster side and player side.

I agree that the current function of Soul Reaping is quirky as hell, and severely imbalanced for both PvE and PvP. It should definitely be looked at and redesigned. Here are some proposed changes to SR I've been pondering on:

{snip}

Problem with that idea is that there are some Necro builds that use few if any saccing or exploiting skills, and with that they might as well all be E/N or Me/N.

Personally, if it was my job to fix SR, I'd give it a cap (dependant on attribute level) on the amount of energy that can be gained in a given time period rather than on the number of triggers, and make it so SR never overfills you (so if a critter dies and you only need 3 energy to fill your bar, that's all it takes out of the SR budget).

This has the following effects:
1) Removes most frustration at triggers being 'wasted'.
2) Allows SR in general to be balanced more finely (increase or decrease the cap)
3) Allows the return from spirits, minions, and other created creatures to be lower without generating the feeling of wasting triggers.

Of these, the third is possibly the most important - would minion masters really be an infinite energy engine for the necros on their team if minions only provided 1/4 of the benefit of actually killing an enemy? Or 1/8th?

R.Shayne · Jul 07, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

"Get better or quit".

I don’t think ANET should ever take that stand because it would mean fewer players and fewer players buying expansions. Like it or not, if you’re a veteran or elitist, we all need the casual, noobs, and newbies to keep buying the game or the server closes. After reading much of the comments being made here I am starting to feel that many of you want ANET to close its doors.

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

The only winners are people who lack skill and are using UB to farm endgame areas.

Does anyone here actually believe the people abusing these skills such as Shadow Form or Ursan Blessing are bad players? They are abusing the skill because it gets them to end reward faster or allows them to farm the most profitable areas. If they nerf UB then the only thing that will change is a new build will develop that these supposable bad players will learn to use and I don’t see UW groups saying, “GLF UW Clear – any class.”

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

However, it is somewhat frustrating to see people with prestige equipment who clearly don't know how to play GuildWars, regardless of how they got it.

I don’t care what people believe is elite it stopped being elite a long time ago when Gold Sellers and ebay became a way to get gold and ecto. The only thing prestigious about armor now is if it has “Prestigious” in the name. If you are buying FoW armor (or any armor or weapon) to feel better or elite to other player you are playing the wrong game. I don’t care if someone is running around with FoW armor, doesn’t affect my game in anyway, of course I got my FoW Ranger armor because I liked the way it looked.

DreamWind · Jul 07, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I really hate the argument that "since so many people are using overpowered crap (like UB) it shouldn't touched". No...it SHOULD be touched and those people should learn to use something else, just as they did BEFORE the overpowered crap (like UB) ever existed.

It and everything like it has been destructive to the game. I don't care how many people are having "fun" with it (or farming elite areas with it)...if it is destructive to the game than it needs to be changed.

I also hate the argument that "people are just having fun so if you take that away they won't buy your games". Bull. Most people bought the game before UB ever existed. They bought the game with loftier goals (of balance and skill>time) plastered all over the advertisements and boxes. They WILL buy the games in the future if you take the garbage away. Actually...MORE people will probably buy the game because it is more respectable, and not full of overpowered no skill crap which equates to cheat codes in a single player game. I used to recommend Guild Wars to my everybody constantly...now I wouldn't dream of it because the balance in both PvE and PvP has went down the craphole.

People wanting to keep overpowered garbage are basically walrus whiners who don't want their bucket taken away even though they have no idea WHY it SHOULD be taken away. Guild Wars was NEVER meant to be this way.

Foe · Jul 07, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Whats the point of these threads? Pve is and has been dead for years now. There is title grinding yes, but for those of us who played pve through prophesies this game is not gw. Either go farm cupcakes or whatever w/ your ursans or stfu and stop giving anet money. Electrified Cheese is yummy!

draxynnic · Jul 07, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

I really hate the argument that "since so many people are using overpowered crap (like UB) it shouldn't touched". No...it SHOULD be touched and those people should learn to use something else, just as they did BEFORE the overpowered crap (like UB) ever existed.

It and everything like it has been destructive to the game. I don't care how many people are having "fun" with it (or farming elite areas with it)...if it is destructive to the game than it needs to be changed.

I also hate the argument that "people are just having fun so if you take that away they won't buy your games". Bull. Most people bought the game before UB ever existed. They bought the game with loftier goals (of balance and skill>time) plastered all over the advertisements and boxes. They WILL buy the games in the future if you take the garbage away. Actually...MORE people will probably buy the game because it is more respectable, and not full of overpowered no skill crap which equates to cheat codes in a single player game. I used to recommend Guild Wars to my everybody constantly...now I wouldn't dream of it because the balance in both PvE and PvP has went down the craphole.

People wanting to keep overpowered garbage are basically walrus whiners who don't want their bucket taken away even though they have no idea WHY it SHOULD be taken away. Guild Wars was NEVER meant to be this way.

I'd have to agree with this from my own personal experience. I used to recommend GW, but since EOTN came out I tend to keep quiet when an MMO discussion starts up. Having to admit that it's now a grindfest just like any other and that it's loaded with brokenness to boot would be just too embarrassing.