Curse

Davros Uitar · Jul 02, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Very good post - insightful stuff. I found myself agreeing with a huge percentage of what is in there.

The only thing I am not convinced on is your fix to Sabway - it is too radical for me. The unlimited and non-degen minions is a huge departure from the standard. I like the concept of weakening the secondary profession through reaping, and would probaby favour just tweaking about with that area of effect rather than remaking many of the things that you were proposing in this thread. That way you could drive the N/Rt healers and the N/Mo prots out and return the value of the monk. Basically I don't think the MM or the curses necro are broken - I am not always awash with energy when I play those builds on my necro.

Good thought provoking topic.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 02, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Another thread in which an "elite" player wants to decide how other players should be playing, according to his own vision.

I really don't see how, or why, people get that Sha is an elitist. He suggests one thread with one thousand and one buffs, gets "could be better" posts all around, along with "damn casuals wanting to be good" and "lulz wh3r3 4r3 ur n3rfs? lulz izzy w4nn4-b3!" posts, and here he suggests nerfs to the biggest issues of the games and he gets tons of "elitist scum!11!!11!one!!!eleven!11!1!!ONE!!" posts. Ironic, I really cannot see how someone can be called both a casual player and an elitist.

Quote:

There are no "problems" in PvE.
PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.
Sabway is fun, paragons are fun, Ursan is stupid but fun.

too priceless not to quote alone. PvE with no problems? Are you kidding me? It has TONS of problems. Just about every person will say so, whether elitist or casual. Ask any person who has played the game for a good enough time, and they will name at least 10 issues with PvE.

Quote:

Sha Noran, I'd like to know what kind of game is "balanced" in your opinion.
And I would like to know what is, in you mind, how people should be playing the game you have in your mind.

A balanced game is where there are no overpowering skills like Ursan, or overpowering builds like the Imbagon. Sabway is an overpowered hero build, but there are counters (mainly lack of corpses). I would have to say that people should play on equal terms and equal difficulty. Just putting in Ursan and having the elitists use weak builds ruins that right there. I am no Sha Noran but I think I have at least similar standings with him/her based off of both threads of skill changes.

Quote:

Sha Noran, you don't want to "balance" the game.
You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

I don't see how you get this. How do you know s/he never played with Ursan or Sabway? I have, I hated Ursan and the Imbagon, not so much Sabway, I try to avoid them to make things easier. If I have to make things harder by using skills I don't want to use, think other "elitists" use them? All "elitists" (which I am not, the term "elitist" is sadly overused. A "good player" is not an "elitist." And "elitist" is someone who wants to be better then everyone else. By making things on BALANCED terms, therefore EQUAL terms, you automatically disprove any claims that you are an elitist. In other words, Sha is NOT an elitist.) want is to try to make things harder for others, while easier for them. Buffing weak skills and nerfing strong skills is not something an elitist does.

Quote:

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.
We don't live in Guild Wars.
Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

I'm frankly disgusted with people who misunderstand others and criticizes them without real proof supporting the insults. Obviously you don't, but many people find "fun" as "difficult but possible." Ursan and the other gimmick builds ruin that, and because those exist, those who want the difficulty must then run H/H, which some do not want to do. Because they do not want to do so, they want the overpowered skills/builds nerfed and underpowered skills buffed, which is what Sha is suggesting. This is not his/her game, nor is it my game, nor is it your game. So please stop assuming things and stating the same thing over several times in different words. It would make life easier for people like me who try to defend those who actually have good points to make, which you are not part of.

Peter Acid Eater · Jul 02, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

This thread is designed to be a "part 2" of sorts to my original thread, in order to address concerns regarding the balance of other aspects of PvE that my first post did not cover <first post can be found here.>. I'm fairly interested in the communities reaction to this segment of the two parts (as should be ANet...), so I'm posting this is Riverside in the hopes of spawning some civil discussion.

In the current PvE meta, I would estimate that there are 5 core issues that one must consider when suggesting a negative spectrum balance (from here on, I'll resign to using the term "nerf"). When I say that these are core issues, I am implying that these are problems that require a simultaneous fix to bring any sort of true shake up to the current game's stagnation. Should only one or a few of these 5 important factors be considered, those skills left untouched would only gain additional overall power level, thus decreasing overall skill balance rather than increasing it.

The five core overpowered problems in the current build of Guild Wars are as follows, to the best of my estimation:

-----------------------------------
1. The "Imbagon" - The synergy of the following skills in conjunction with a Paragon's primary attribute and sheer base armor level and consumables is too perfect, and thus, too powerful: "Save Yourselves!", "There's Nothing to Fear!", Focused Anger {E}

2. Ursan - The bear skill is just too powerful; with consumables it's basically impossible to fail.

3. Sabway - The synergy of Soul Reaping's mechanic with minion death is simply too much as it is; since the game's inception, this has been abused, first (that is, the first time this was problematic) as Blood Spike, but this continues on with N/Rt and N/Mo healers with more power than Monk and Rit primaries, simply due to basically infinite energy; this, combined with simple Curses builds that most of the community has been familiar with for literally years now, and you have an unstoppable build that heroes can run perfectly. This does not promote creative or intelligent play, but rather allows the player to win on autopilot.

4. Tank and Spank - The Holy Trinity must also be addressed as an overly effective mechanic which has only recently been overshadowed by the much faster Imbagon teams, Sabway hero zergs and Ursan. The effectiveness of certain builds must be matched so that all classes are dealing an appropriately similar DPS level, or certain builds (and thus certain classes) will be simultaneously propelled into use or discarded aside and forgotten.

5. Minimal Man Farming Effectiveness - When it comes down to it, this is what has ruined the value of most things in Guild Wars. In the end, it never really matters what changes you make if it's really still much faster (and thus profitable) to farm alone in the most difficult parts of the game using builds based around blatant loop-holes in skill synergy.
-------------------------------------------

There you have, laid out for all to see, the core problems with the current build for Guild Wars PvE. I'm fairly sure that you must know this, and I'm sure that as a whole, these deep balancing problems are something the Devs and the community both are reluctantly attempting to avoid having to face directly due to the excitement of Guild Wars 2. In all fairness, I understand the eagerness to move on to something newer and potentially better, but I can only assure you that de-alienating some of your most die-hard Guild Wars fans will bring you nothing but additional profit in the end.

When considering solutions to each of these problems, all things must be considered as a whole. If only the top three problems are addressed, the community would fall back on #4 and #5 in a likely successful attempt at re-experiencing success with tried and true methods. Though this would appear to shake things up at first, the stagnation would only revert to an even deeper level, and a greater number of problems would arise.

After some consideration of all I know about this game, I have come up with potential solutions to the problems that ail it. Before I continue, I would like to say that I understand that ANet is probably not going to reallocate resources from Guild Wars 2 development to work on these proposed fixes, however I must state that I believe there to be very little programming leg work involved. That said, on with the solutions:

1. The "Imbagon"

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

"Save Yourselves!" - Armor gained now scales with Warrior's Strength attribute: 10...80...110

"Watch Yourself!" - Removed recharge.

"Stand Your Ground!" - Increased armor gain to +40.

Solution explained: "Save Yourselves!" is a Warrior skill; there is no reason for it to not be balanced the same way that "There's Nothing to Fear!" and Seed of Life were. Simultaneously, just nerfing "Save Yourselves!" with no other changes would ruin many Paragon's viability in groups needing that additional armor. "Watch Yourself!" and "Stand Your Ground!", buffed as I suggest, offer this utility without granting the party pure invincibility.

2. Ursan

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

Ursan Blessing {E} - Bonuses adjusted to "+100...200 maximum health and +1...4 health regeneration."

Wolven Blessing {E} - Bonuses adjusted to "+60...100 maximum health and Enchantments cast on you last 25...75% longer."

Raven Blessing {E} - Bonuses adjusted to "+60...100 maximum health and 10...50% chance to block."

General blessing mechanic adjustment: Increased energy degeneration while in-form to 3.

Solution explained: The changes I've outlined here would reduce the overwhelming power of the Bear skill by removing the base armor increase and replacing it with Wolven's health regeneration. Giving Wolven Blessing a new bonus (longer enchantment duration) would open up potential use for that skill, and increasing Raven Blessing's block rate makes it more attractive as well.

With these changes in place, all three Blessings still possess incredible power, and certain classes/skills may synergize with them too powerfully to preserve balance. To increase the difficulty of Blessing upkeep, I think it's reasonable to increase the energy degeneration it causes to 3. A creative or determined player could certainly still manage to meet this upkeep, but the extra effort required is a fair balancing affect on the power the Blessings afford.

3. Sabway

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

* Minion deaths no longer trigger Soul Reaping.
* Removed the Soul Reaping timer.
* Modified the functionality of Soul Reaping to include the additional effect "For each point in Soul Reaping, you experience 2% less effectiveness from skills attributed to your secondary profession."
* The maximum minions possible for a Necromancer to raise is still limited by their Death Magic attribute, however, Necromancers who achieve 16 Death Magic may raise an unlimited number of minions.
* Minions in PvE no longer experience accelerating health degeneration over time, nor any natural health degeneration of any kind.

*Maximum number of heroes allowed in party from one source increased to 7.

Solution explained: The Necromancer's ability to out-do many other professions at their own jobs due to his unlimited supply of energy must be curtailed to ensure a balanced play environment. Preventing minions from generating Soul Reaping stops the infinite energy engine that powers the majority of truly overpowered Necro builds. With this engine halted, power must be restored to certain game elements that were previously gimped in an attempt to balance without attacking the root problem. For this reason, I believe it would be safe to remove the Soul Reaping timer.

Even without infinite energy, Soul Reaping still offers free energy, and if combinations are found to be powerful enough to be worth providing the energy for, imbalances could be again formed. To prevent this, an increased investment in Soul Reaping deteriorates the effectiveness of skills from the Necromancer's secondary profession. A large debuff is not necessary; the variables I've provided are what I believe provide the best overall balance.

Once I made these changes, a re-evaluation of the situation showed that Necromancers had lost a little bit too much of their power. Curses and Blood untouched, it made sense to give some of that power back to Minion Masters. In PvP, the idea of unlimited minions and minions that never naturally decay is a bad one, but in PvE, where gameplay is slower paced and frequently interrupted by player-proposed breaks, minions dropping dead purely due to their age is slightly unreasonable. Removing the minion cap and removing minion decay are fair balancing measures to assure that all classes remain viably powerful in the meta.

All of this done, I looked over my changes and discovered that without further adjustment to this problem area of the game, I would be disregarding, disrespecting, and discarding a whole segment of the gameplay community which must value both the synergy of their hero's bars and also their ability to complete difficult challenges using this power. To award these players something to make up for the loss of the incredible Sabway (and to prevent these players from subsequently rage-quitting the game due to complete loss of power), I suggest increasing the maximum number of heroes that a player may add to a party to 7.

A correctly balanced PvE would allow these players to complete areas using 7 heroes running a concise team build rather than forcing them to compact all of their synergetic power into only their bar and 3 additional hero ones. The players who prefer to play in this way are already avoiding PUGs and other players by using three heroes and four henchmen; it's time to expand these player's potential by allowing them to fill all 7 of those NPC slots with heroes of their own design.

4. Tank and Spank

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

Detailed in my first post, which is here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10303079

Solution explained: Once the top three ailments plaguing PvE have been tended to, we have successfully returned ourselves to the level of balance we had grown accustomed to before PvE skills and before heroes. This alone would be a huge step in the right direction, but stopping here, as I said, would be a mistake.

In my first post, I listed a good deal of changes that can be made to existing skills that will increase their potential effectiveness in PvE situations; increase enough of a class' skills, and the class will see an increased overall effectiveness also. A perfect Guild Wars would be a game where all of the classes are essentially balanced (and thus all approximately equally effective); groups would search for roles they needed filled rather than for people running specifically predetermined builds.

The suggestions I outlined in my first post would bring a great deal more range of power to the PvE side of the game. Keeping power spread accross a range of skills and abilities helps avoid stagnation caused by singularly powerful skills or skill combinations (builds). The balance method employed so far has been nothing short of an endless exersise of "wack-a-mole", in which overpowered builds are developed, overtake the meta, and then are subsequently destroyed by a nerf. As this method of balance always leaves a power gap in it's wake, this method of balance always has the unfortunate side effect of something else worse coming up to take the place of the nerfed method/skill/build. This method of balance also weakens the overall structure of the game's skills, and on an unlimited timeline, all skills eventually become completely ineffective.

As you're now attempting to shift focus from Guild Wars 1 to work on other projects, it would perhaps be best to bring your skill list's power level all up to one place before you abandon it completely, or balance will never be achieved.

5. Minimal Man Farming Effectiveness

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

*Drops now scale depending on the number of human players in your party; more human players means more drops total in any given zone.

Solution explained: Solo farming, duo farming, small group runs for higher difficulty instances, groups comprised of heroes, and groups comprised of henchmen are simply things that are unavoidable; if a solution is offered to a player, you must assume that at least some percentage of your playerbase will take that solution. It is unwise to attempt to destroy builds that allow players to do things alone (when it is so truly difficult to invent such a build; that is, difficult to invent, but easy to copy...), and your skill balancing decisions show us that you have this wisdom already.

The only imbalance remaining from my perspective, if you were to make the adjustments I've already suggested or something similar, is really simply the incredibly increased effeciency of solo play over group play. If you want to really balance PvE, you're going to have to adjust the way that loot is rewarded, and it really must be at least partially connected to the number of human players in the party. Until this is done, there will never be a reason to make larger groups to farm things that smaller groups recieve better rewards for.
-----------------------------------

I believe that making the changes outlined here, or changes similar, is a step required in achieving anything resembling a balanced PvE environment. Without putting any effort toward the restoration of this environment, I believe many veteren players will continue to feel too alienated to put trust into your future endeavours, in particular, Guild Wars 2.

Sincerely,
A loyal and concerned player,
Sha Noran

Ala point-counterpoint.

Overpowered or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Munchkinism

Firstly, the nature of munckinism has been around long before Guild Wars came into even the most minor of conception. It is an intrinsic quality in humanity to abuse any system. If there is a game based upon firm set rules, people will find loopholes and abuse it. This was done in long before video games or even Den & Dapper games and is omnipresent in the rules, regulations, bylaws, etc. that permeate our very real world lives.

Does this mean I condone or support munchkinism?

No, I do not. However...

1) I'll take your word for it.

2) I agree. Not because it equals automatic success in many difficult areas (there are many other areas in GW PvE that are made immensely easier with very specific builds), but because it takes the core essence of GW (you always have a weakness and so do your enemies) and tosses it to the winds.

3) Somewhat of a problem, but I have an easy time running a pure heal monk with [[channeling]. It's cheap, gives back excellent energy in mobs, and my divine healing gives that little bit extra that a necro cannot provide.

The point of easy hero-spam builds is relevant and should potentially addressed, but AI is a damn tricky thing. I'd be willing to bet that the hero AI is very clearly designed after monster AI. Heroes can work some builds incredibly well. Others, they fumble and fail.

4) Easier said than done. Besides,

"the effectiveness of certain builds must be matched so that all classes are dealing an appropriately similar DPS level, or certain builds (and thus certain classes) will be simultaneously propelled into use or discarded aside and forgotten"

is better boiled down to:

All classes must = same DPS. What!? Why have classes that excel in spikes against spell casters? Why have classes that can excel in taking massive damage? Why have classes that excel in hit-and-run-condition spamming? The idea that all classes should be relegated to some equal DPS total playing field is absurd. What you do is provide adequate counters.

5) You want to nuke all farming? Do you remember how insanely high prices used to be? I would joke about how the GW economy was like the collapsing Soviet Union (no offense to any Soviet Block member here, I have a crude sense of humor sometimes), where your character would come rolling in wheelbarrows full of gold pieces just to buy some armor.

55 farming has been around a long time and nearly every MMO (I don't want to get into the GW not an MMO thing) has some form of farming. It happens. There are loopholes and people exploit them. Touch Ranger is one of them. To fix it requires mechanics changes that have potentially unintended consequences. Look at the Luxon Assassin.

But to get back onto farming, what is arising now is pure and absolute NIMBY. "SF farming is too easy! Even teh noobs can do it!" Yeah, and a noob can't do 55 or any of the other farming builds? If ANet wants to worry about farming exploits... well, it's too late for that. But if they do, then give skills to enemies to crush out that key skill. The notion that doing so will m,ake things impossible for a team of humans is nonsense. A team full of real human players can figure out a way around it. Once again, hero AI is dumb. Quicker, yes, but much, much dumber.

Still, I must give you credit for at least being across-the-board against farming. I don't mind farming. I do it now and then, but that's mostly to farm Tombs for lockpicks to help with my main chars' titles and get some gp. I do think that high areas should be exempt from farming exploits, though.

Your proposed changes are interesting. Personally, I'd like to see Ursan be class-specific enchantments. If I use bear while being a Warrior primary, I might get an armor bonus. While being a Necromancer, 11...33% faster cast of death spells. While a monk, 20% less energy for spells. This boosts specific character attributes without changing their core function (which is the exact problem with shapeshifting, which is why ANet should not have opened that bag of worms to begin with (see: Vampire Masquerade, Werewolf: Apocalypse merger = major balance fubar (aka: White Wolf's WoD becomes a crapshoot powergamer lamefest)))

Other than that, the only thing I see as a major flaw in your logic is your desire that all classes be equal or near equal in DPS. IMO, this should not be the case. There is always going to be a case where you are not as effective as another class. However, you can typically invest into a secondary and make yourself somewhat viable. I have lead several groups through Hell's Precipice as W/R maintaining Winter and still interrupting Fists and Hands of the Titans. (seriously, if you are a warrior, you need to always bring an interrupt *cough* [Distracting Blow] )

I think many of your proposals are spot on and I, personally, appreciate that you were able to provide very concise explanations and reasoning for your proposals. Even more so, you considered other segments, those that don't tend to play in human groups and go through PvE via heroes (which many do). Which is why it somewhat baffles me that you seem to want to shaft the entire farming industry.

I understand curtailing hardcore farming, but I only will farm maybe 1/10 my total GW time per month, which is fairly limited due to real world obligations. To nerf farming completely would make financial situations very difficult for some longtime casual players, such as myself. I feel the better solution is to keep better logs and provide steep chasm drops of loot. If logs show a user farming over 10 hours a month (as an example) then their loot quality begins to rapidly diminish until it is nowhere worth their time to farm over, let's say, 12 hours per month. Once they breach that threshold, the loot they get will be subpar at best if logs show them attempting to solo farm. Of course, such ideas may sound nice, but are impractical as I don't know the specifics of the loot scale system and, ergo, cannot provide solid advice on potential changes.

In closing... This is one of the better critiques to the devs I've seen. You make many valid points, but I feel that you are somewhat overly harsh on others. Guild Wars is not an easy game to balance, as there are many types of players out there. Furthermore, ANet doesn't have an incredibly huge staff to draw from. They are, relatively speaking, rather small. I do have faith in GW team, as I've continued to enjoy this game for several years now and I think many overlook all the great things that thay have given us for free, such as craft item storage and so on, that they could have charged for. Also, changes to the system are often not as easy as some of us might think and I can almost guarantee that the changes you have proposed can be just as easily exploited via some skill setup. Guild Wars may attempt to cripple the inherent munchkinism of other uber skill list MMOs (WoW) by limiting the amount of potential skills in play, but it suffers from a large, diverse and, thusly, exploitable "deck" of skills to choose from.

As a fairly older roleplayer, one thing I have learned over the years is that no ruleset is ever perfectly exploit free.

Bug John · Jul 02, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Most people want Ursan removed, true. But they want many, many other changes as well. It's just that Ursan entirely trumps them in numerous aspects, including balance and gamebreaking issues.

The "don't like, don't use" doesn't work here no more. Ignoring problems doesn't excuse them.

If you truly believe they are the "only viable options" to beat these areas, then you need to adjust your outlook.

If PvE was as simple and easy as this, UB and all these other overpowered facets wouldn't need to exist.

first, stop talking as if you knew what gw population wants, if you knew 0.0001% of gw players opinion, it would already be surprising

there's no problem with how other people play pve, as it doesn't impact your gameplay at all
so the "don't like, don't use" works perfectly here

if you think you can handle elite areas without tanking and/or imbagons, I'd really like to see how slow you are and how much time you spend using rebirth

PvE IS easy, player vs ai is always easy as long as you know what you're doing, UB just makes puging and clearing areas faster and easier

Sweet Mystery · Jul 02, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Another thread in which an "elite" player wants to decide how other players should be playing, according to his own vision.

There are no "problems" in PvE.
PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.
Sabway is fun, paragons are fun, Ursan is stupid but fun.

Sha Noran, I'd like to know what kind of game is "balanced" in your opinion.
And I would like to know what is, in you mind, how people should be playing the game you have in your mind.

Sha Noran, you don't want to "balance" the game.
You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.
We don't live in Guild Wars.
Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

To steal a line from Battlestar Galactica "So Say We All !!"

Bekkr · Jul 02, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

^^^
Except, you know, not.

Peter Acid Eater · Jul 02, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Lemme address a major fallacy here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

there's no problem with how other people play pve, as it doesn't impact your gameplay at all
so the "don't like, don't use" works perfectly here

No, it does impact my gameplay. When I go to an area in PvE and all I see is players doing H/Hway, that impacts my ability to play with other players. When I go to an area and players only want players with rank (aka: grind) based skills, that directly affects my ability to enjoy the game. Heroes are fun sometimes, but H/Hway has really given PvE a turn for the worse. Unfortunately, I don't know if there is a way to fix this in GW1, but it is something they seem to be balancing for with GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

if you think you can handle elite areas without tanking and/or imbagons, I'd really like to see how slow you are and how much time you spend using rebirth

PvE IS easy, player vs ai is always easy as long as you know what you're doing, UB just makes puging and clearing areas faster and easier

But doesn't all that "make it easy" stuff kind of ruin the entire point of end-game challenge and relegate it as a joke? Yes, it does.

[DE] · Jul 02, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Another thread in which an "elite" player wants to decide how other players should be playing, according to his own vision.

There are no "problems" in PvE.
PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.
Sabway is fun, paragons are fun, Ursan is stupid but fun.

Sha Noran, I'd like to know what kind of game is "balanced" in your opinion.
And I would like to know what is, in you mind, how people should be playing the game you have in your mind.

Sha Noran, you don't want to "balance" the game.
You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.
We don't live in Guild Wars.
Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

Is that what you'd tell PvP'rs too when everyone was running around with Signet of Ghostly Might?
PvE can be balanced and should be balanced.

Abnaxus · Jul 02, 2008, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Excuse me, but if I want 1-2 hours of mindless killing with 7 other people, I would go to Diablo 2. Really. And If I want to at least pretend to create new builds and enjoy them, I will play GW... or at least I played because of it.

Have you thought about people that can't join ursanjerks? Either because they don't have time to make r10 norn, don't have place for monk (delete a char/buy new slot? Some people don't have, like myself, credit card with advanced option of changing currency, and if someone loves his 9 characters... why should he be FORCE to give up on one of them?), don't have EotN (again, forcing people to buy add-on is WRONG), or just don't find it entertaining to mash buttons with their foreheads?

Oh, so people forming groups "LF R10/R8 ONLY 2 CONSETS!!" don't want me to play like THEY want. Okay. Cool.

So, wait, I payed for this game and I'm forced to use ursan or play only with my guild? I feel ripped of right now.

Well, I have to answer this.

First of all, you are not forced to play with PUGs.

If you want, you must know in advance that you have to accept the rules.

You can't join a group and say you are W/E with meteor shower and rodgort invocation, and when they kick you complain that "I have bought the game and I can't use every build I want, I feel ripped off".

Groups have rules.

When I want to play in a PUG, I adapt to the rules of the group.
If I want to join a roup that wants Ursan, I use Ursan.
If I don't want to accept the request of the group, I don't try to force the group to accept my style. I play on my own.

Just to explain what I think about ursan.
I have a Ranger with 28 titles (29 next weekend), all done playing with a friend Ranger too.
When we got lvl 10 norn, we used 2xUB + 6 heroes for a couple of weeks, and we had fun with the novelty vanquishing some areas.

Then one day we had to vanquish Eastern frontiers, and failed against the grawl healers.
We went back to the outpost, switched to our BHA + ebon assassin build, and steamrolled the whole area with a party of 4.
Since then on, we never used UB anymore.

So, if you and Sha want my opinion, BHA + ebon assassin is much more "unbalanced" than UB.
But again, nothing is unbalanced.

Everything in the current game can be extremely fun.
The state of the game and of PvE is better than ever.
I enjoy doing everything I want, take 3 necros and changing their skills according to the place, add 1 or even 2 paragon heroes, sinergize their skills, everything.
Even play ursan, if I want to join a group that requirs it.

All those things MUST remain in game, shame to Sha Noran and all those who want to remove to negate other people to enjoy the game.

Angelina Collins · Jul 02, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

The ONLY thing that needs to be BALANCED in GW is the players who complain that SKILLS are overpowered and that PvE needs balance.

NO SKILLS ARE OR EVER WHERE OVERPOWERED IN THIS GAME EVER!!!!

If you weaken one skill the counter will seem more powerful, but the fact is it never changed. Skills based on titles are only as strong as the title, but like ursans, if you solo you fail, but in mass you succeed, fire based skills are the same way.

Shadowform perma build is not overpowered, because someone with no experience can fail very easily with the build not to mention it is only used in a couple of areas, and people that want it nerfed are worried that their ecto supply will crumble, ectos that they either farmed with the same build or other builds that acted the same way as that build.

The only changed that need to be made are to skills that were toned down to meet the demand to restructure PvP and force build diversity. They need to be revamped back to their original funtion.

Remenber the monsters use the same skills as we do, you weaken them and they become weaker as well, you make them stronger and they become stronger, you change them monthly, or make them different for ever encounter, rotateing skill bars, and the game becomes a challenge.

In order for PvE to be a challenge, you need chaos not balance.

the main problem with PvE is that the monster's skill bars never change, thus repetitive action and we learn how to counter and kill them. But if they changed the monster bars constantly, (rotating) then tactics and skills would have to change as well, and if they were always different, then a well orginized team of players would be needed to defeat them, that is what PvE needs, not skills "balance"

kostolomac · Jul 02, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

To all people who say that they can't get in groups because of ursan , before that you could have been kicked for many more reasons , even if you don't have a skill from a campaign because you don't have it , sorry that happened before ursan.

PvE was unbalanced before ursan to a insane degree , saying that ursan ruined balance in the game is well , stupid.

There is no skill balance in this world that can make GW pve challenging Angelina Collins explained that.

I agree with upier with all of his points.

In the end ANET has the word , and they would be insane if they came to riverside , looked upon some texts and decided to nerf ursan.

And for the record , I would rather have unbalanced skills that will bring 8 people together in one team , rather than H/H. Ursan achieved that , thats why I love ursan.

Abedeus · Jul 02, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

NO SKILLS ARE OR EVER WHERE OVERPOWERED IN THIS GAME EVER!!!!

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Join Date: Feb 2008

Hai, you remember dark aura + mark of protection?

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So, if you and Sha want my opinion, BHA + ebon assassin is much more "unbalanced" than UB.
But again, nothing is unbalanced.

BHA counters - monster dodging it, blocking, REMOVING, you blinded, hexes with price/spirit of failure, under 50% miss environment effect.

Ursan counters - high e-denial. And Diversion, but I could count on fingers of one hand how many times I met that skill in pve.

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Shadowform perma build is not overpowered, because someone with no experience can fail very easily with the build not to mention it is only used in a couple of areas, and people that want it nerfed are worried that their ecto supply will crumble, ectos that they either farmed with the same build or other builds that acted the same way as that build.

HOW can someone fail if he has to push 1-2-3 every 32-36 seconds? I've learned how to use it in 30 minutes, after 2nd uw run.

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First of all, you are not forced to play with PUGs.

To go into a team without guild? To go to UW/FoW and have a chance of surviving and doing a full run? OR DOA? Yeah, I am forced. That, or not doing at all.

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Everything in the current game can be extremely fun.
The state of the game and of PvE is better than ever.

There is no spoon. But there is a lot of ignorance/self-delusion.

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All those things MUST remain in game

You are forcing me to play Ursan.

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You can't join a group and say you are W/E with meteor shower and rodgort invocation, and when they kick you complain that "I have bought the game and I can't use every build I want, I feel ripped off".

There is a difference between "shit weak build from 2005" and "good build full of synergies". Ursan is ONE DAMN SKILL better than 292 elites and God knows how many non-elite skills. No other elite offers +200 hp, +20 armor, 8 second recharge KD (3 seconds on a war), mass weakness, +dmg, spike damage and ability to spam it every 3 seconds.

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So, if you and Sha want my opinion

Thank God that A.Net doesn't care about your opinion. They already said they are looking at Ursan, Shadow Form and Ether Renewal, however the latter is not as gamebreaking as others.

kostolomac · Jul 02, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Thank God that A.Net doesn't care about your opinion. They already said they are looking at Ursan, Shadow Form and Ether Renewal, however the latter is not as gamebreaking as others.

And I pray to god that A.net doesn't care about yours.

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You are forcing me to play Ursan.

And by removing ursan you would force many people to play the way you want them to play.

DonCorleoneCS · Jul 02, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Abnaxus you must not have played GW for very long if you think this is fun and balanced. I hate seeing people who would run sever artery/gash/healinghands/frenzy now wearing FoW/Chaos Gloves/30 Titles and q7's all because they learned how to 121212121233333 mash.

It is over powered and it is ruining the game. As for SF....well that doesn't need an explanation.

Bryant Again · Jul 02, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And could we please once again stop with the whole "Don't like it - don't use it-argument being invalid"-crap?

No, because, as stated already, ignoring problems doesn't excuse them. The fact that ANet doesn't consider this a problem doesn't mean to ignore it. It's *why* they don't consider it a problem probably the most concerning.

It also excuses all the God-mode ideas that Burst showed in his post, further proving it's invalidity as an "argument".

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Originally Posted by upier

Do I feel that that idea is moronic?
Yes, I do.
Did A.Net state that they won't listen to moronic ideas?

No.

Tough luck.

So they will listen to moronic ideas? That bolded part says yes, but the quote from Strain says no.

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Originally Posted by upier

The people are telling you how they want you to play IF you want to play with them.
You ALWAYS have the option to NOT play with them.

My concern is less with "how people play" and more why ANet thought this a good idea. If they nerfed it, along with many other skills, it would prove ANet understood and corrected their mistake.

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Originally Posted by Bug John

first, stop talking as if you knew what gw population wants, if you knew 0.0001% of gw players opinion, it would already be surprising

No one will ever know what the population wants because the population doesn't voice its opinion ever.

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Originally Posted by Bug John

there's no problem with how other people play pve, as it doesn't impact your gameplay at all
so the "don't like, don't use" works perfectly here

See above. That argument excuses any and every overpowered thing you can think of, from a skill that eliminates all foes in the area in a split second to a skill that give 500^1000 health.

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Originally Posted by Bug John

if you think you can handle elite areas without tanking and/or imbagons, I'd really like to see how slow you are and how much time you spend using rebirth

If you really think you can't handle these areas *without* tanking and overpowered crap then you really shouldn't be voicing so much for them. And Rebirth is a terrible skill.

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Originally Posted by kostolomac

PvE was unbalanced before ursan to a insane degree , saying that ursan ruined balance in the game is well , stupid.

So you're excusing Ursan because the monsters were overpowered? Just because the monsters have high-levels and insane damage doesn't mean they're "OP". AI proves that quite easily.

Let's go way back to the (original) Doom series: In those games you were always outnumbered. Monsters always had infinite ammo. Some took 5 shotgun blasts, some took 5 rockets to kill, and some could take nearly 50 rockets to kill. Sounds pretty imbalanced, doesn't it? And this same formula applies to thousands of games, many such as Devil May Cry, God of War, and heck even Mario.

But people don't complain. We don't complain because we smart. It doesn't matter if there are monsters that can kill you in one hit or monsters that have a lot of immunities. You adapt, but the computer does not.

That's why you'll never achieve the "balance" you want in PvE, because no matter what you do, no matter how many monster skill rotations you give (as Angelina suggested), no matter how many hours you put into perfecting the AI, the computer will always be at a disadvantage.

I can understand UB putting all professions on equal ground, but it doesn't (see: Warriors with Signet of Stam). I can understand if it put the player at equal footing with the computer, but it makes it even more unfair for the latter (see: above).

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Originally Posted by kostolomac

And by removing ursan you would force many people to play the way you want them to play.

And Ursan isn't doing that already? If a Mesmer wanted to see these areas in a PUG I'm sure he'd want to play as a Mesmer, not as a mock Warrior. UB is pretty much the equivalent of having to roll a whole new class, just without the amount of time.

Tyla · Jul 02, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

first, stop talking as if you knew what gw population wants, if you knew 0.0001% of gw players opinion, it would already be surprising

Those people aren't voicing their opinion on the subject. The people who understand the game thoroughly understand what will make the game better.

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there's no problem with how other people play pve, as it doesn't impact your gameplay at all
so the "don't like, don't use" works perfectly here

Don't like it don't PuG. Oh, that does affect me.

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if you think you can handle elite areas without tanking and/or imbagons, I'd really like to see how slow you are and how much time you spend using rebirth

Barrage / pet group. Remember 8 man Forgemaster PuGs? Most of the game is possible without either of them. If you really believe that I think you should uninstall.

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PvE IS easy, player vs ai is always easy as long as you know what you're doing, UB just makes puging and clearing areas faster and easier

... Because it's a grossly imbalanced skill which is against this game's original design.

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Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

NO SKILLS ARE OR EVER WHERE OVERPOWERED IN THIS GAME EVER!!!!

I'm going to sum this up with two words; You're Clueless.

Skye Marin · Jul 02, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

To go into a team without guild? To go to UW/FoW and have a chance of surviving and doing a full run? OR DOA? Yeah, I am forced. That, or not doing at all.

Some folks enjoy finding like-minded people and playing with them. If you can't, then can I have all your stuff?

So when the fluff is boiled down, it's because some folks just can't get into PuGs, because they refuse to play by the PuG's rules? When a monk with flare gets kicked from a PuG, you would hope to hell that he learns to not bring flare? When a group calls for an MM, and gets someone running FoC, that player isn't likely to be included, because the group wanted something different. It's not elitism, it's being practical.

Why not start your own PuG? Why not start your own Guild? Afraid of failure? You should be. Hard Mode is hard, and there's no reason why you should want to gimp yourself. Failure is frustrating, and inefficiencies make the game boring. Having the game be too easy is also boring, but the power of Ursan doesn't compare to something glitched like Signet of Ghostly Might.

Ursan isn't BAMPH... it's Ursan. It needs monk and paragon support to function, and human players to fill the slots. It needs co-operation to function. It's just part of a team build.

kostolomac · Jul 02, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I'm not excusing ursan because of the monsters , I'm excusing it because of the fact that I had an illusion that all 10 professions will be equally desired , but the class design and pve design itself is going against that. We forget that Guild Wars is focused at PvP , PvE is secondary (at least that was advertised to me when I bought proph). I accepted that my profession is a lower caste in pve.

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And Ursan isn't doing that already? If a Mesmer wanted to see these areas in a PUG I'm sure he'd want to play as a Mesmer, not as a mock Warrior. UB is pretty much the equivalent of having to roll a whole new class, just without the amount of time.

I do want to play elite areas with mesmer skills but even I know that human mesmer can bring to the table is nearly equal as a mesmer hero , but less than other professions , and yes UB turns you into that without the need to roll a new class which is the only reason I like it ( I wish you could rearrange the 1-5 skill so that you can spam some other numbers

).

upier · Jul 02, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

To go into a team without guild? To go to UW/FoW and have a chance of surviving and doing a full run? OR DOA? Yeah, I am forced. That, or not doing at all.

See - now I am confused.
That's EXACTLY what people are advocating.
Elite areas should be open to elite players only.
That excludes PuGs.
You really think ANYONE will be dumb enough to take you in their team on your mesmer if you can't get into a team now?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No, because, as stated already, ignoring problems doesn't excuse them. The fact that ANet doesn't consider this a problem doesn't mean to ignore it. It's *why* they don't consider it a problem probably the most concerning.

It also excuses all the God-mode ideas that Burst showed in his post, further proving it's invalidity as an "argument".

They are ignoring it because this is the game THEY want? Or better yet - a game that a lot of players don't seem to have a problem with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So they will listen to moronic ideas? That bolded part says yes, but the quote says no.

But then the question shifts from "Is this a moronic idea?" (as in - What would the good players say about this?) to "Do we believe in this (= is this something that enables us to take a shortcut) and will enough people support it?" (as in - What do the masses want?).
Because there is just no way to incorporate PvE skills, (the) HM (we have), titles, ... in the game if the question was "Is this a moronic idea?"!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

My concern is less with "how people play" and more why ANet thought this a good idea. If they nerfed it, along with many other skills PLUS decisions like lvl 20+ foes, pretty much everything in HM, environmental effects, titles, monster skills ..., it would prove ANet understood and corrected their mistake.

Yeah that would work.
BUT if I have the option between having a game full of shitty design choices (like previously stated they won't change 4 games of PvE!) and having:
1. overpowered skills, that I don't need to use and a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game
vs.
2. a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game
I'll take overpowered skills that I don't need to use and a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game ANYTIME!

Bryant Again · Jul 02, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

They are ignoring it because this is the game THEY want? Or better yet - a game that a lot of players don't seem to have a problem with.

Two Parts:
1. Why would ANet want a game that has its skill and challenge based off of a grind? Isn't that the opposite of what made Guild Wars stick out from the "crowd" in the first place, i.e. ANet's original vision? The game wasn't doing poorly because of it.

2. Most players aren't going to have a problem with this because, as stated numerous times, the majority does not and will not ever care. If anyone uses that as an excuse to make bad decisions then they don't know what they're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But then the question shifts from "Is this a moronic idea?" to "Do we believe in this and will enough people support it?".

Again, it comes to "Why would we believe in something that goes against our original game design principles?".

Regarding "who supports it" is another thing to take into consideration: the largest source of support is going to be from people who don't appreciate Guild Wars for what it is, refuse to learn, and just want everything handed to them. Are those really the kind of people that ANet wants to support their game?

Granted, you could mention the crowd of players that "can't find pugs because they think (huge keyword here) my profession is useless", but not only is that not always accurate (Paragons are considered "weak" to PUGs) but because these changes don't help those people (as partly evidenced by Ursanways now starting to only accept Warriors). There's little to nothing that you can do to help fix PUG mentalities, and attempting to do so usually results in a poorer game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because there is just no way to incorporate PvE skills, HM, titles, ... in the game if the question was "Is this a moronic idea?"!

The only "problem" that's arisen from this "moronic idea" of PvE game design is that certain classes haven't fit the mold too well within it. It then becomes a situation of "blame the game or blame the profession?". Unfortunately, in this regard, I'd have to choose the latter.

All in all, these "moronic" additions haven't solved anything. Making "stupid" decisions to solve a "stupid" problem just provides with more stupid. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant, bolded part added by Upier

My concern is less with "how people play" and more why ANet thought this a good idea. If they nerfed it, along with many other skills PLUS decisions like lvl 20+ foes, pretty much everything in HM, environmental effects, titles, monster skills ..., it would prove ANet understood and corrected their mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah that would work.

Can't agree with you entirely, only with titles that affect gameplay. The rest are ANet's attempts at making the game challenging in the only sane way possible. The only reason the attempts haven't entirely worked out is because some of the professions don't work too well in such cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

BUT if I have the option between having a game full of shitty design choices (like previously stated they won't change 4 games of PvE!) and having:
1. overpowered skills, that I don't need to use and a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game
vs.
2. a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game
I'll take overpowered skills that I don't need to use and a bunch of crappy skills that are completely out of touch with the PvE game ANYTIME!

Agreed, but only if those were the only two possible choices.

Missed Kostol's post:

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Originally Posted by kostolomac

I'm not excusing ursan because of the monsters , I'm excusing it because of the fact that I had an illusion that all 10 professions will be equally desired , but the class design and pve design itself is going against that. We forget that Guild Wars is focused at PvP , PvE is secondary (at least that was advertised to me when I bought proph). I accepted that my profession is a lower caste in pve.

While that is understandable, screwing over the whole game because of *one* class is not appropriate. Not only that, but some professions just aren't accepted into PUGs because PUGs aren't terribly smart (again, Paragon example).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I do want to play elite areas with mesmer skills but even I know that human mesmer can bring to the table is nearly equal as a mesmer hero , but less than other professions , and yes UB turns you into that without the need to roll a new class which is the only reason I like it ( I wish you could rearrange the 1-5 skill so that you can spam some other numbers ).

So you don't mind the fact that Ursan completely ignores the classes "problems"? I hope this isn't a trend ANet does with GW2.