Curse

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

He was a ranger with proph only skills , he got kicked of many groups because of that.

Vazze · Jul 01, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

can we close this thread? the suggested balancing by the OP is so bad it hurts to read them.

Yichi · Jul 01, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Second , ursan is not a solution , it's a problem...

I fix'd this for you as you clearly had it backwards...

viper11025 · Jul 01, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

This is too easy to bash.....
I tihnk I'll go play Bear Nerfer 5000X with the expansion Bear hunter 2 on trippy map with all the rly big lvl spawns and bosses.

Skye Marin · Jul 02, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

If Ursan is nerfed, the next most powerful build will take it's place, and PuG exclusion will still be there because people don't like to fail whatever task they're doing. Farming for high-end and rare items isn't bad, and I'm sure there are other builds and teams that can complete the high end areas just as well without Ursan. Title grind and Hard Mode were introduced as a way to expand the end-game for those who don't want to move on to PvP, and PvE skills were introduced to help soften the blow of PvP nerfs and help players against L30 mobs with environment effects.

Burst Cancel · Jul 02, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Those of you crying about "STOP TELLING ME HOW TO PLAY THE GAME" need to stop with the strawmen. I'm not telling you how to play the game. It's perfectly fine if you want to use cons and PvE skills - do it in normal mode. That's the whole point of normal mode. Hard mode doesn't add any content - it is purely a difficulty change; so if you can't handle the difficulty, why are you playing in that mode? What's the point of adding a higher difficulty and then dumbing it down so any moron can do it?

The argument of "I should be able to play however I want" is ridiculous to begin with. How about this? I think I should be able to kill all enemies in one hit. I also think that I should be able to get all rewards in the game for free. The argument can be extended ad infinitum; by this line of reasoning, Anet should change the game so that everyone has access to everything, all the time.

What's the argument against adopting my other hypotheticals - giving all players permanent Chimera of Intensity and 8 elite skills? That's the way I want to play, so I should be allowed to right? Why is Anet stopping me?

But sure, I'll do one better. Anet doesn't have to touch the current Hard Mode. They can add a new mode - an actual hard mode - with cons and PvE skills disabled.

Freke · Jul 02, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Why do you uber players care so much if other people have an easier time with the-God-forsaken-balls-droppering-baby-punching HARD MODE?

Its not more of the fact that it's easy for them, it's that you people cant get by with the fact the UBER ELITE AREAS are now being done by normal not-super-hardcore gamers. Honestly, whats the big deal about it? Its really actually funny to think that you people storm around pissed that somebody else is having a fun time.

And this ursan deal, who says ursan has to be maxed to use it. Ive gotten rank3 ONLY from playing GWEN and use it all the time in hard mode. No, it's not a grind fest at all, it's fun. My reward? Helmets turning gold, map being uncovered, titles going up.

Most of the people that play guild wars or use URSAN don't post on forums- and I can almost gaurantee that if you go into the general population and say "WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY URSAN" most people wouldn't say anything. Not because they dont dissagree, which they do, but they think youre a moron, and a moron who shouldn't be bothered talking with.

Drop it, you e-peen peeners, just because you WONT be the few and the proud with the bonus stuff in GW2 doesn't mean that the entire game should have an overhaul.

These other builds you talk about- imbagon- never heard of them, except sabway. Which I use all the time. It's nice, there are EASILY better builds, but I dont want to take the time looking up what to use where. Guild Wars has no subscription fee for a reason- Casual Play. After beating the games, why should I become an uber player? I want casual play, I want to play what I havn't accomplished yet. Hard mode.

Stop being pissy over the "super imba game" while you have the option of not using the super imba skillz.

gg.

viper11025 · Jul 02, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Freke, I secound that.
Well mods, you should now close this before it gets all burnt and flakey.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 02, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

As long as Ursan encourages grouping (which it does), Anet won't touch it. They're pretty fanatical about "encouraging" people to group (the hero limit, henchmen being idiots, etc), after all...

[DE] · Jul 02, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

Its not more of the fact that it's easy for them, it's that you people cant get by with the fact the UBER ELITE AREAS are now being done by normal not-super-hardcore gamers. Honestly, whats the big deal about it? Its really actually funny to think that you people storm around pissed that somebody else is having a fun time.
gg.

I like basketball. Do you like basketball? What if you were really good at basketball, like really good at it. You go to the NBA and start to make the big bucks and then... they decide to change the rules of basketball - the game is now dumbed down to be so easy that the NBA players can play at their peak but 5th graders will still play just as well as them. I'd be a bit mad if I were you.

Horribly bad and utter ridiculous comparison aside the problem with the current state of the PvE game is the fact that subpar players are able to play at the same level as real experienced players. Johnny Wammo, decked out in his full FoW set with r6 KOABD still thinks mending is a good idea for his skill bar - but he ran ursan with PUGS instead. He certainly doesn't deserve those titles now does he? Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for average and bad players being able to complete elite areas and gain the same titles - however when all the players have to do is mash 1, 2, and 3 on recharge there most certainly is a problem.

While the separation of PvE and PvP skills was nice, Anet took it in seemingly the wrong direction - I'm okay with them bringing back some old skills so that they can see at least some play. But buffing already fine skills for the sake of Johnny Wammo being able to do BIG DOMOGE is just dumb. Buffs aren't the only things updates can do. What PvE balance really needs right now is some nerfs.

Clarissa F · Jul 02, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

This is what happens when you get a generation of kids raised in the Era of Entitlement. "What is wrong with average players getting to finish elite areas?" If you really have the testicular fortitude to utter that, or any other facsimile of idiocy, I feel sorry for you. Let's change the Olympic medals from gold, silver and bronze, to blue ribbons that say "You are Special, no matter what place you finish."

They have this kind of system with teachers, where their pay is based SOLELY on how long they've been in, once they make tenure, which takes 3-5 years. In other words, you are rewarded just for time put in. Wonder why the US is last in education among industrialized nations? When you reward mediocrity, you kill ingenuity and create an atmosphere which stifles challenge and devalues achievement. "Skill>time played", anyone? Anyone calling someone "elitist" for demanding that challenging areas/modes be challenging has never had a real challenge in their life. Otherwise, this concept wouldn't elude so many. I feel sorry for you.

DreamWind · Jul 02, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

Drop it, you e-peen peeners, just because you WONT be the few and the proud with the bonus stuff in GW2 doesn't mean that the entire game should have an overhaul.

You aren't getting it. Guild Wars has ALREADY had an overhaul that people are angry about. Many people spent their money for one thing and then completely got something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

Guild Wars has no subscription fee for a reason- Casual Play. After beating the games, why should I become an uber player? I want casual play, I want to play what I havn't accomplished yet. Hard mode.

LOL. Hard mode was never created for casual players. It was created for people who want the additional challenge. I can show several sources if neccessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

Stop being pissy over the "super imba game" while you have the option of not using the super imba skillz.

Let me be the first to say..."Aw Geez not this shit again". (Your argument has been destroyed 1000 times).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

As long as Ursan encourages grouping (which it does), Anet won't touch it. They're pretty fanatical about "encouraging" people to group (the hero limit, henchmen being idiots, etc), after all...

Which is why they buffed all the skills that allow people to easily solo elite areas. Makes perfect sense!

Why do I think they won't touch overpowered garbage? Because they want HoM farmers to buy Guild Wars 2. Simple as that. The theory is so sound that it hasn't even been touched yet.

Carinae · Jul 02, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

I find this post interesting because myself and a few other necromancers (notably Chthon) have been posting (read: screaming) similar solutions to SR for months and months now. Apparently, others experienced players are also looking into it and coming up with similar solutions, which tells me that we were on the right track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

* Minion deaths no longer trigger Soul Reaping.

This change alone alone shuts down the SR 'sharing' engine. It forever BREAKS any possibility of SR abuse either in PvE or PvP. Passively generating raw energy for OTHER players is a bad, bad idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

* Removed the Soul Reaping timer.

Marry me.

This is the first time I have seen someone outside the necromancer community propose removing the timer abomination. Bravo. I think people are starting to understand why the timer is a fundamentally bad idea.

It breaks any coordination between USE of energy and the GENERATION of said energy. You can't plan your skill usage because you can't rely on SR as an energy source. Receiving energy RANDOMLY over a 15 second window does not encourage good gameplay, especially in a build like MM. MM is essentially a 'web-effects' build. Your focus is NOT on other players/monsters, it's on maintaining the 'web' as best as possible. This requires planning your skill usage carefully, which is not possible when SR triggers can't be relied upon.

Before the SR timer, when running as a human MM, I continuously had my spells planned out 5-10 casts deep. I knew what the next 10 spells were going to be and coordinated those spells with my SR returns. With the timer, my spell depth is 1, maybe 2 spells deep. This is because I CAN'T plan any deeper, because I don't KNOW if SR will trigger or not.

Minions spells have their energy costs pro-rated for the strong ability of SR. But when SR doesn't trigger, those spells become EXORBITANTLY expensive and can wreck an entire batch of minions with a single miscast spell.

The timer also completely breaks the corpse-exploitation synergy that CLEARY exists between SR and Death Magic.

The timer has GOT to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

* Modified the functionality of Soul Reaping to include the additional effect "For each point in Soul Reaping, you experience 2% less effectiveness from skills attributed to your secondary profession."

This change is targeted at stopping secondary abuse, I understand, but all it really does is discourage secondary use at all on a Necro. The obvious example would be on an MM running Heal Area (or GoLE). SR was the problem not HA or GoLE.

The previous point (removing SR hits from minions) essentially solves this issue. I'm not really worried about the case when your teams is mowing down monsters left and right. Clearly, other factors are in play there and SR isn't a cornerstone of those those scenarios.

It's also a wonky solution similar to the SR Timer. I resist those in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

* The maximum minions possible for a Necromancer to raise is still limited by their Death Magic attribute, however, Necromancers who achieve 16 Death Magic may raise an unlimited number of minions.
* Minions in PvE no longer experience accelerating health degeneration over time, nor any natural health degeneration of any kind.

I can't believe I am going to say this, but I am just not a fan of removing the minion cap. It could be raised for sure, to say 16, but eliminating it is not good for the game. Here's why:

The original argument against the cap was that unlimited minions follows the skill>time philosophy of GW. Anyone could raise 20 minions, but really skilled players could raise 100. I vehemently argued this point at the time. However, I'm a better player now than I was then and I see that this would be just as IBMA as SY and Ursan are now. 100 minions rolls ANYTHING.

Now you could argue that BotM has a built-in cap, but:
a) It's not a 'skill-based' cap, it's a hard cap just like the Minion Cap.
b) there is always the possibility of another minion healing strategy being invented (and fueled by the SR of 100 minions)

Although inelegant, a hard cap works best here. Maybe raise the cap, but 16 would be max IMHO.

Finally, raising the minion cap is unrelated to Sabway and it's nerfing. Keep the solutions targeted and minimal.

Here is the best possible SR solution:
Minions do not trigger SR.

Remove SR timer.

Reduce costs of Animation spells dramatically.

This solves ALL the major SR problems and is unexploitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

*Maximum number of heroes allowed in party from one source increased to 7.

Utterly unrelated. Keep the solutions targeted and minimal. You have every right to ask for this as a separate item, but it ISN'T related to the Sabway issue.

Vazze · Jul 02, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Here is the best possible SR solution:
Minions do not trigger SR.

Remove SR timer.

Reduce costs of Animation spells dramatically.

This solves ALL the major SR problems and is unexploitable.

...and Ether Renewal eles will be the new MMs. No ty. If only your own minions can trigger SR, maybe, or they can trigger it but the energy is capped at low level. messy

Skye Marin · Jul 02, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Changing mechanics won't solve the problems you're listing, and won't change the game to the way you might want it. You can be upset about Ursan, but you should suggest ways to solve the problems that won't take away other people's enjoyment of the game, and instead, add to the game. If PvE skills are removed from Hard mode, then that is unfair to those who haven't started hard mode, versus those who have already finished it and want more titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Why do I think they won't touch overpowered garbage? Because they want HoM farmers to buy Guild Wars 2. Simple as that. The theory is so sound that it hasn't even been touched yet.

I've discussed this same theory before plenty of times, and I think it's valid. What Anet then should do is give a challenge to those who want it, and reward them for it, without taking anything away from anyone else. Read my idea here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10299371

In short, make a new level of challenge, like Hard Mode, but with no PvE-skills, heroes/henches, or any consumables allowed. Rewards are increased (all locked chests drop golds). All skills are PvP counterparts when neccessary, and certain specific considerations are taken into account to combat tank n' spank, minion masters, and solo farming builds. Read it, and tell me what you think.

Sweet Mystery · Jul 02, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Another post to waste the time of others....calling for nerfs here and there.

Why the hell all the cries for Balance in PvE all the time? Are you being made that poor by others now playing the game to again cry out to nerf what they use?

I've a Paragon, do I use "godmode"? No I don't. I've done all 3 campaigns and am a L3 survivor, but I didnt make my self uber-powerful to do it.

Nerf Sabway? Hang on, isn't that just a clever combination of professions and skills to meet an end? The builds of which are tinkered by so many from the base that any combination can be good enough? Hell I use N/Es in Zaishen Challenge to farm Balth faction... is that also something to be nerfed?

I agree that there are some things in the game that can be overpowering when multiples are added together. Ursan is not on it's own, 5 ursans 2 monks and a paragon can be yes.... what about 5 W/Es with conjure and hundred blades? They can spike like hell too you know.... Or add in the Dragonslash builds with unlimited adrenaline to keep spamming skills...

Pvxwiki has loads of builds that seem to get the job done and imbalance PvE in one way or another, but always comes to some skills to get complained at.... when they are gone, what is next on your list?

I have logged over 11,0000 hours on Guildwars and I don't get upset by all these other people being able to do things..... it's not harmful, hell 5,000,000 or so people play guildwars (well own it...).... a small handful of people seem to be very upset all the time and want to change this and change that.... I bought the game to play and enjoy, and what isn't enjoyable is when people cry out to change things because they don't like it.... Anet see the game as a whole and people slam them for "you should do this" but I can bet they know what they need to do and how things are affecting the game. Ursan been there for nearly a year, has it really broken the game all that time.....? I say no... it's allowed more and more to experience more... as the game should allow them.....

Carinae · Jul 02, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

...and Ether Renewal eles will be the new MMs.

Yea, and N/Rt put the Necro MM out of business didn't it? Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

If only your own minions can trigger SR, maybe, or they can trigger it but the energy is capped at low level. messy

The energy returns of SR will be more than sufficient, in fact, they'll probably be more than is currently available. Necro MMs don't need SR to trigger on minions, if the costs of the Animate spells are approximately halved.

Abnaxus · Jul 02, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Another thread in which an "elite" player wants to decide how other players should be playing, according to his own vision.

There are no "problems" in PvE.
PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.
Sabway is fun, paragons are fun, Ursan is stupid but fun.

Sha Noran, I'd like to know what kind of game is "balanced" in your opinion.
And I would like to know what is, in you mind, how people should be playing the game you have in your mind.

Sha Noran, you don't want to "balance" the game.
You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.
We don't live in Guild Wars.
Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

Abedeus · Jul 02, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.

Excuse me, but if I want 1-2 hours of mindless killing with 7 other people, I would go to Diablo 2. Really. And If I want to at least pretend to create new builds and enjoy them, I will play GW... or at least I played because of it.

Quote:

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.

Have you thought about people that can't join ursanjerks? Either because they don't have time to make r10 norn, don't have place for monk (delete a char/buy new slot? Some people don't have, like myself, credit card with advanced option of changing currency, and if someone loves his 9 characters... why should he be FORCE to give up on one of them?), don't have EotN (again, forcing people to buy add-on is WRONG), or just don't find it entertaining to mash buttons with their foreheads?

Quote:

You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

Oh, so people forming groups "LF R10/R8 ONLY 2 CONSETS!!" don't want me to play like THEY want. Okay. Cool.

Quote:

Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

So, wait, I payed for this game and I'm forced to use ursan or play only with my guild? I feel ripped of right now.

upier · Jul 02, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Those of you crying about "STOP TELLING ME HOW TO PLAY THE GAME" need to stop with the strawmen. I'm not telling you how to play the game. It's perfectly fine if you want to use cons and PvE skills - do it in normal mode. That's the whole point of normal mode. Hard mode doesn't add any content - it is purely a difficulty change; so if you can't handle the difficulty, why are you playing in that mode? What's the point of adding a higher difficulty and then dumbing it down so any moron can do it?

But hard mode IS harder.
Ursan UW in NM and Ursan UW in HM. Neither might be HARD, but hard mode IS harder. (There are people who find normal mode hard - so we can't really use an absolute term of difficulty - whereas "hard mode" does meet the criteria for it's existence - it IS harder then the other mode!)
The game might not be hard enough for you. And if that bores you - you might want to switch games.

And could we please once again stop with the whole "Don't like it - don't use it-argument being invalid"-crap?
A.Net is the judge in this matter. They will weight the pro's and cons - and then decide (that is IF they want to - and they have absolute right to NOT want to!).
And what we have here is one of the parties (that is NOT A.Net!) telling the other party which arguments they can or can't use. Now you can do that - but all you are doing is wasting your breath because it has no practical meaning.
So we have a game where:
- we have instanced play and what goes on in that instance does not shape how play in other instances takes place
- everyone has the ability to shape their play in their instance to their liking
and
- everything that is achieved in that instance is completely personal
so if something is not to their liking (in terms of components that they can have influence on) - they have the ability to balance themselves.
Which is the point of DLDU.
Now - the problem that was also presented is that DLDU actively shuts down a discussion. This might be an issue IF the whole point of one side wasn't that the so called problem ISN'T a big enough of an issue to warrant a discussion. And that is the point that should be able to come across also.

I can already hear people screaming - OMG!1 Fine, then give me a skill that kills of all foes on the map, and gives me 250 ectos/shards for each kill! DLDU!11!!1
Do I feel that that idea is moronic?
Yes, I do.
Did A.Net state that they won't listen to moronic ideas?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Strain

Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don't assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it's important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so.
http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

No.

Tough luck.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, so people forming groups "LF R10/R8 ONLY 2 CONSETS!!" don't want me to play like THEY want. Okay. Cool.

The people are telling you how they want you to play IF you want to play with them.
You ALWAYS have the option to NOT play with them.