Curse

Kinn · Jul 01, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I don't understand the problem with Sabway. It's a team build that can be used effectively by heroes without having to be micro'd to hell. It's not exactly God Mode. It soon turns to crap in low-corpse areas anyway.

It's PvE. who the hell cares if team build "X" is better than team build "Y"? (for certain areas)

Abedeus · Jul 01, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

People that can't run Y for various reasons and X is not used.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I'm not even sure why did they put HM in the first place , moar titles to grind?

To appease those who wanted challenge in their PvE. Those who didn't want more of a challenge in their PvE could stay on Normal Mode. Now, the point of Hard Mode is voided because the difficulty can be turned into Normal Mode.

If you want an example, it would be like playing God of War on the hardest difficulty setting (God mode) and being given a weapon at the beginning of the game that gives you quadruple damage and health. Kind of silly in that respect, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Second , ursan is not a problem , it's a solution (a bad one I must admit) to the idiotic game design of HM and elite areas (fight fire with fire).

Fire? There was never "fire" there to begin with, just stupid. And in order to fight that stupid you just had to be smart and skilled. Now you don't have to be. So yes, in a sense it's "fire vs. fire" in that reality that it's now an anti-climatic battle of "stupid vs. stupid".

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I used fire vs. fire to explain ursan. As skillful play , in a guild group maybe , in pugs it was about the holy trinity.
Removing ursan won't fix the problem of terrible class balance , or the problem of enviromental effects that are supposed to "challenge" the players. Ursan is a minor flaw compared to those. PvP is challenging because both sides have the same resources , while in pve one side has all skills , brains (arguable) , real teamwork , team synergy vs. higher level , insane attributes , gimped bars and the intelligence of a toe. Challenging , no. Fun , yes.

Bug John · Jul 01, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

why would you want to balance so many things in pve ? if you don't want to use imbalanced skills, nobody forces you to use them

pve doesn't need to be balanced as it's just a matter of brute force, if monsters were really intelligent and balanced, your post would make sense, but it's not the case

anet clearly showed us what was "high end pve" : huge groups of lvl 30 monsters with infinite energy that can kill you in two hits, and broken environmental effects

that's precisely why you can't nerf sabway, tanking builds and imbagons, they are the only viable options to dispose of those masses of overpowered and stupid monsters

if you want to play against intelligent opponents, pvp is the way to go, not pve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And in order to fight that stupid you just had to be smart and skilled.

pve has never required to be "smart and skilled" because opponents are totally predictable, you just need to find the specific build and how to use it

xmancho1 · Jul 01, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I dont understand why want to have a balanced pve , when GW is supposed to be a pvp game , we dont have some extremely hard encounters as most of the other mmo has. I think pve is for just learning the basics , couse theres no good pvp tutorial. See I understand the people who want a challenging pve like in the other games , but theres one big flaw in the game - its not that much rewarding as it should. Without farming and just playing the you cant make the money to buy armor , weapons , runes , insignia and weapon upgrades u need to play , its ridiculous - the loot scaling , the times u get almost no loot while somebody gets almost all , the thing that most of the gold items we get are no worth to be sold to players , not enough storage space , no ingame auction house... and you want a balanced game in pve ... i think that this will never happen so just calm and keep on playing whatever youre playing

[DE] · Jul 01, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I don't understand the problem with Sabway. It's a team build that can be used effectively by heroes without having to be micro'd to hell. It's not exactly God Mode. It soon turns to crap in low-corpse areas anyway.

It's PvE. who the hell cares if team build "X" is better than team build "Y"? (for certain areas)

The problem occurs when team build "X" is better than all other existing builds - everywhere.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I used fire vs. fire to explain ursan.

But it doesn't apply. Fire vs. Fire would be human opponents facing each other. In order to have something like this it would require an AI overhaul the likes gaming has never seen.

You seem to excuse Ursan because it puts you on even ground with the monsters, but the computer has been disadvantaged from the start: You're a person, it's an AI. Right there you'll always have the one up on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Removing ursan won't fix the problem of terrible class balance , or the problem of enviromental effects that are supposed to "challenge" the players. Ursan is a minor flaw compared to those. PvP is challenging because both sides have the same resources.

Ursan is just the first step of many. The reason it's the one so often discussed is because it's the biggest and most strikingly concerning move ANet has ever made to PvE.

Most people want Ursan removed, true. But they want many, many other changes as well. It's just that Ursan entirely trumps them in numerous aspects, including balance and gamebreaking issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

why would you want to balance so many things in pve ? if you don't want to use imbalanced skills, nobody forces you to use them

The "don't like, don't use" doesn't work here no more. Ignoring problems doesn't excuse them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

that's precisely why you can't nerf sabway, tanking builds and imbagons, they are the only viable options to dispose of those masses of overpowered and stupid monsters

If you truly believe they are the "only viable options" to beat these areas, then you need to adjust your outlook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

pve has never required to be "smart and skilled" because opponents are totally predictable, you just need to find the specific build and how to use it

If PvE was as simple and easy as this, UB and all these other overpowered facets wouldn't need to exist.

Richardt · Jul 01, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

While I agree that the Imbagon is major problem in allowing people to steamroll PvE, I don't think the nerf to [[save yourselves] you proposed would fix the problem-instead of paragons abusing it, you'd have warriors abusing it (as someone already pointed out).

I do like Racthoh's idea of making SY! more effective depending on close you are to the shouter.

But an easier method of nerfing this is adding in a recharge-nothing overly serious, but just enough to make it still viable but not spammable.

What I propose is give SY! a recharge of 1s or 2s. This will prevent the spammability of it, and prevents it from being able to be up 24/7 (unless you have a high Kurz/Lux rank).

As for the "infinite minion" idea-I don't think this is the way to go to reduce IMBA in PvE. If anything this would create more. However, I do like the idea that the number of minions you have scales with Death magic.

Turbobusa · Jul 01, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

[DE], that's not even the point. There are way better builds than Sabway.
The problem is when you abuse SR, as this build does.
Things die, you get energy.
You die, others get energy.
A minion die, you get energy.
You spam high energy spells on recharge that's the "problem".

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Some of the posts in this thread are so terrible. "Don't like it don't use it" is coming up yet again even though it has been smashed over in over in other threads.

When ELITE areas of the game on HARD mode become so EASY to the point where they are SOLOABLE or done easily by NEWBIES TO CASUAL PLAYERS with OVERPOWERED crap, the game not only has a balance problem, but is quite simply a bad game. The fact that some people can't see that this is a problem is beyond belief.

Guild Wars has simply become the HoM farming ground for Guild Wars 2. Most intelligent people have moved well beyond the fact that the game is broken, to now discussing WHY it has happened.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

But they want many, many other changes as well. It's just that Ursan entirely trumps them in numerous aspects, including balance and gamebreaking issues.

When I do something with many steps , I always do the hardest , removing ursan from the game is the easiest thing anet can do.

Quote:

You're a person, it's an AI

Yes but that AI can do damage with one spell while some teams whole builds do that amount of damage , and has many other advantages , rather than being a person.

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If PvE was as simple and easy as this, UB and all these other overpowered facets wouldn't need to exist.

You just explained why ursan exists.

Removing ursan wouldn't fix any problems , it would just create more problems than those now. Removing the need for ursan , and giving better rewards for skillful play (HM doesn't take more skill than NM) would require a complete overhaul. Letting things go with the flow , and putting more effort in GW2 is much more advisable than "fixing" things now.

Quote:

When ELITE areas of the game on HARD mode become so EASY to the point where they are SOLOABLE or done easily by NEWBIES TO CASUAL PLAYERS with OVERPOWERED crap, the game not only has a balance problem, but is quite simply a bad game. The fact that some people can't see that this is a problem is beyond belief

PvE is casual play , whoever thinks different lives in denial. Either enjoy pve now , switch to pvp for challenging play , or GTFO

If by your opinion GW is a bad game , then why are you playing it ,or even worse , tell other people how to play the game?

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

When I do something with many steps , I always do the hardest , removing ursan from the game is the easiest thing anet can do.

...because, as it stands, Ursan is the most gamebreaking entry into the game. It's the largest contradiction to what made Guild Wars the unique package it was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Yes but that AI can do damage with one spell while some teams whole builds do that amount of damage , and has many other advantages , rather than being a person.

Then in that case, you preprot, prebuff, etc. Hell, I already thought up of the counter to that "insane" spell: Protective Spirit (which in itself is another problem altogether).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

You just explained why ursan exists.

Because it's not required? Wha?

I can understand Ursan existing "for the poor pugs", but making changes that affect the game as a whole based off of an inexperienced group is, as been stated by another poster here before, akin to "making skill balances based entirely off of RA".

And another edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

PvE is casual play-

Normal Mode is casual play. You've still provided no solid reason for making the harder difficulty easier.

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

PvE is casual play , whoever thinks different lives in denial. Either enjoy pve now , switch to pvp for challenging play , or GTFO

Therein lies the fundemental problem with your entire argument. Elite areas and hard mode are NOT and SHOULD NOT be for casual play. I don't know how you ever got that idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

If by your opinion GW is a bad game , then why are you playing it ,or even worse , tell other people how to play the game?

I rarely play it anymore due to the inbalanced crap that infested the game. I am here simply telling people that it used to be much better than this.

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

PvE is casual play , whoever thinks different lives in denial. Either enjoy pve now , switch to pvp for challenging play , or GTFO

If by your opinion GW is a bad game , then why are you playing it ,or even worse , tell other people how to play the game?

You said it yourself. PvE is for casual play. What kind of casual player would want to grind to be able to join a PuG and play? Anyone who grinds like that just to join PuGs can't call himself a casual player.

As for switching to PvP for challenging play, guess what? People who didn't want to move on advanced onto Hard Mode, which was a treat to those people. People who are against Ursan aren't "Telling others how to play", moreso trying to fix the game itself because they care. Ursan goes against the game's original design to boot, and you need to grind just to joina group. Seriously, that's *Red Engine*'d up.

Also, elite areas and Hard Mode were for people who would actually devote time to completing them. It was a difficulty switch, not a difficulty switch then slap 1 skill on your bar, have a pre-made bar and mash to victory regardless of where you are.

You can't blame people for actually giving a shit about it.

[DE] · Jul 01, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

[DE], that's not even the point. There are way better builds than Sabway.
The problem is when you abuse SR, as this build does.
Things die, you get energy.
You die, others get energy.
A minion die, you get energy.
You spam high energy spells on recharge that's the "problem".

I was referring to Ursan and Imbagon but okay.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You said it yourself. PvE is for casual play. What kind of casual player would want to grind to be able to join a PuG and play? Anyone who grinds like that just to join PuGs can't call himself a casual player.

FYI took me more than three months to max norn , my first only max title , and probably the last.

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You can't blame people for actually giving a shit about it.

I don't.

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Ursan goes against the game's original design to boot

No HM , titles , elite areas , monster skills and enviroment effects go against the original game design more than ursan. PvE was something like a CRPG , now (even before ursan) it became a grind fest.

Quote:

Normal Mode is casual play. You've still provided no solid reason for making the harder difficulty easier.

Who said HM was harder , it's more stupid and demanding , it would be harder if the monsters had different bars , different mob groups etc. I don't look at the monsters in HM as more challenging or harder , I look at them as more resilient sheeps to the slaughter than in NM , the obstacle in getting that red helm gold. It's not hard , it's boring. That's why I rarely do anything in HM.

I would be okay if only skilled people completed elite areas like many here said it should be , but in GW's case before ursan only certain professions had that privilege , not the difference if the player was skillful or not.

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

FYI took me more than three months to max norn , my first only max title , and probably the last.

3 months? That's alot of time you know.

Quote:

No HM , titles , elite areas , monster skills and enviroment effects go against the original game design more than ursan. PvE was something like a CRPG , now (even before ursan) it became a grind fest.

I was talking about the pre-made bar bit.

Quote:

Who said HM was harder , it's more stupid and demanding , it would be harder if the monsters had different bars , different mob groups etc. I don't look at the monsters in HM as more challenging or harder , I look at them as more resilient sheeps to the slaughter than in NM , the obstacle in getting that red helm gold. It's not hard , it's boring. That's why I rarely do anything in HM.

It's harder in HM. More numbers make it harder, but who said it was hard? Hard Mode was a letdown, and I'm not denying that, but the point still stands that Hard Mode is a treat to those players. Oh yeah, it's also the shoddy AI aswell as skill bars.

Quote:

I would be okay if only skilled people completed elite areas like many here said it should be , but in GW's case before ursan only certain professions had that privilege , not the difference if the player was skillful or not.

Now you have to grind, when you could've simply ran variations then. It's a vicious circle is it not?

At least with professions you have to play your character's role and not some buttonmashing piece of shit that has no bar comprehension whatsoever, and is powered on grind. The least they could've done is not tighten it up with grind.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Now you have to grind, when you could've simply ran variations then. It's a vicious circle is it not?

At least with professions you have to play your character's role and not some buttonmashing piece of shit that has no bar comprehension whatsoever, and is powered on grind. The least they could've done is not tighten it up with grind.

MY brother was almost constantly kicked out of FoW groups because he didn't have splinter weapon , how is that a variation?
The thing with roles ,not every profession had a role.
I agree with the grind thing.

Tbh I would love to see a nerf to UB , but without proof that somethings else is going to change except that doesn;t give me the feeling that game will be better. A 12 man size for all elite areas would be nice without increasing the difficulty of the area. After all the 8 slots have been taken and all the tank&spank roles filled , some of the outsider professions might have a chance to jump in.

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I suppose he was joining a Barrage group?

A typical bar in a Barrage / Pet group usually consists of Barrage and Splinter Weapon. This is common knowledge.

Either way, if he was a Ritualist, that skill should seriously go on your bar. It is afterall the most powerful AoE force in the game.