Curse

Burst Cancel · Jul 01, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Responses to various replies:
- If A's and Me's 'need' PvE skills, this is a fundamental error in the class design, and should be addressed as such. The introduction of 'PvE skills' (i.e., skills that implicitly ignore balance) is counterproductive. The example of Critical Agility is a terrible one, because that skill is broken too, and if anything actually makes the case for banning PvE skills even stronger.

- Nobody is telling casual players how they should play the game. You're free to use all the broken stuff you find 'fun', but do so in normal mode (i.e., the newbie sandbox). I don't see why you'd feel entitled to play in hardmode when it's beyond your ability. As I said, the casual players can stay in normal mode - which, in fact, was designed for casual players to begin with.

- AI and skillbar improvements ultimately make PvE more dynamic and allow targetted changes to break overused builds without punishing the innovators. PvP evolves because your opponents are humans that think and improve over time; PvE lacks this sort of evolutionary development and fails in large part because of it. Thus, regular dev-driven changes can be made to keep the game unpredictable and fresh, without touching skills or attributes.

- Against MMs, I cited Backfire as an example, but it doesn't have to be Backfire specifically. I will note, however, that punishment hexes in general work very well against heroes simply because heroes often fail to take them into account. As for Banishing Strike vs. MMs, while MMs would like to cycle minions, remember that they need corpses to do so. Banishing Strike can destroy clumped minion armies of arbitrary size while inflicting heavy damage to characters in the vicinity - MMs are thus riskier to run, where is the problem? And, again, Banishing is an example; there are any number of other ways you could address MMs - for instance, adjusting monster AI to ignore minions, or even to prioritize the MM. You could put in more enemies with corpse-denial or minion stealing skills. Use your imagination.

- My overall point is that while PvP is mostly a function of the skills themselves (since all players have free access to the same skills), PvE has the added components of monster skillbars, monster AI, and level design that have largely been ignored. You don't have to adjust PvE by nerfing the players, because you can adjust the monsters or the areas instead.

the_jos · Jul 01, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Responses to various replies:
- If A's and Me's 'need' PvE skills, this is a fundamental error in the class design, and should be addressed as such.

The classes are fine, it's just the way PvE functions that makes them less efficient.
It's been discussed over and over again in for example the Mesmer forum.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The classes are fine, it's just the way PvE functions that makes them less efficient.
It's been discussed over and over again in for example the Mesmer forum.

If it came to which one you'd rather adjust - PvE or the class itself - I'd much rather go for the class.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

- Nobody is telling casual players how they should play the game. You're free to use all the broken stuff you find 'fun', but do so in normal mode (i.e., the newbie sandbox). I don't see why you'd feel entitled to play in hardmode when it's beyond your ability. As I said, the casual players can stay in normal mode - which, in fact, was designed for casual players to begin with.

And why then you feel that you are entitled to play HM without pve skills?
I play HM using the best skills at my disposal , if some of them are pve I will use them. And btw , PvE was designed for casuals to begin with , PvP is for real players. Anet devs must have been on some crazy sh*t when they got the idea to make more elite areas (urgoz , deep , doa) to please the PvE'ers. Every player is entitled to every aspect of this game , it's his choice if he does that.

However I agree that the design of some classes is flawed , and that adding pve skills inefficiently solved this problem.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

And why then you feel that you are entitled to play HM without pve skills?

Why do inexperienced and demanding players feel that they're entitled to play in HM if they can't do well in NM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

And btw , PvE was designed for casuals to begin with , PvP is for real players. Anet devs must have been on some crazy sh*t when they got the idea to make more elite areas (urgoz , deep , doa) to please the PvE'ers. Every player is entitled to every aspect of this game , it's his choice if he does that.

Likewise, Hard Mode should remain for more skilled players. If the normal mode of the areas is too inaccessible, then fix that. Don't screw over the whole game just because of that, though.

It really makes no sense for ANet to appease to people who can't complete stuff in NM yet want to see the hardest challenges.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I'm not even sure why did they put HM in the first place , moar titles to grind? By beating the game I become entitled to play in HM , it's my choice and ability that shows how will I do there , but that concept is junk since any moron with 3 hero builds from wiki can beat the game and unlock HM.

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

It was to give players who wanted harder content more things to work on. Some people refused to move onto PvP.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Some people refused to move onto PvP.

And Anet catered to those people , the catered to another group when they made ursan. The game is going down the drain just because of that. People need to realize that Anet isn't there do make everything to their wishes and accept the original concept that the pve part of GW was just a story line , more like RPG rather than a MMO.

Pandora's box · Jul 01, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-snip-

OMG! How is it possible someone changes his attitude 180 degrees in such a small amount of time? I fully agreed with the first list, but this... Destroying the most popular builds, you must be out of your mind! It would cause a lot of still dedicated players to leave the game inmediately.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Did you really had to quote all that?

JONO51 · Jul 01, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

OMG! How is it possible someone changes his attitude 180 degrees in such a small amount of time? I fully agreed with the first list, but this... Destroying the most popular builds, you must be out of your mind! It would cause a lot of still dedicated players to leave the game inmediately.

I think it would do the oppsite: encourage dedicated players to find and to exploit more broken things. Plus, it would give the game a new lease of life by shaking up virtually untouched things for the past year+.

Phoenix Tears · Jul 01, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If it came to which one you'd rather adjust - PvE or the class itself - I'd much rather go for the class.

Mesmer are just simple boring, because they have absolutely no skills, that you would imagine under that Class, which should be masters of "Sleep", because thats is the real specialization of the Mesmers - Sleep Control through Hypnosis.

I fail to see for example, where the Mesmer has really skills that have the effect to lullaby enemies into Sleep to dominate then through Domination Magic their Dreams to deal damage direct to the Souls of the enemies cause of manipulating the Dreams with Nightmares and Illusions.
Yet imo the Mesmer is only one many of the Professions of GW, which are gameplay wise imo a complete concepted FAIL. Not to mention that normally the real masters of Illusions should be Harlequins (Clowns) and not a Caster Class, that has the specialization of manipulating/dominating foes through Sleep and Hypnosis and dealing damage through their strong psi powers.
Not to mention, that the measmers have no single skill, which effects really look like illusions and should have the effect to confuse the enemies.
and why ? because simple in GW1 exist the negative status ailments Confusion and Sleep not -.-

Real good concepted Mesmer would look more like this:
(a hybrid between GW1's Mesmer, Puppeteers + Psions)

[P]Will Power
Attribute for non elemental Psi Attacks. Increases for every point in WP the duration of Enchants and Hexes by 2% and whenever a Hex gets casted on you, your Defense Power against Damage from all Sources will increase per Attribute Point in WP also by 2 Points, as long the Hex is on you.
Will Power will also decrease for every 5 Points the Energy Cost of Mesmer Spells by 1

Domination Magic
All the Skills we know from mesmers out of GW1, but under Domination will fall now then too also the Control of magical Puppets as Puppeteer.
Caster Interrupt Skills

Hypnosis
Skills that have to do with Hypnosis bringing Foes into the Sleep Status being able to manipulate their Dreams and to deal so damage
Physical Interrupt Skills (you need no Illusions for that, Sleep does better, Illusions is the speciality of Harlequins

)

Ether Channeling
(the better naming for "Inspiration Magic" *cough* which is also no School of Magic at all, but only a silly thought out name for a type of Magic to give that attribute somehow a name. Not every crap must end ever with "Magic" for Caster Classes -.-

This way mesmer would act like what Mesmers are specialized for and not like Wannabe-Illusionists that Mesmers don't are in reality.

However, thats an other topic XD.

B2T:

Hard Mode is not only for hardcore players and such players which think, that NM is no challenge (what it is as skilled player in the end really not, but however, thats not the point) If a casual player plays now in NM, or in HM plays no role. fact is, nobody should dictate other players regardless in which mode, how they should play the game in any of the both modes.
No one should dictate others, which skills should be usable in hardmode, and which not, only because certain pepople are at the opinion, UB destroys the game's challenge, when the simple solution will be ever juts not to use UB and/or Consumeables when you want to have challenge.

but the important fact is: only because you play something with ursan does not mean, that the "challenge" will vanish after you beat the game as ursan group. NO... people can ever replay the missions so often they want, first tiem play as ursans, just to get it done and the next time then without ursan for more challenge, when you don't have to worry about things anymore, like that you could die in the mission or so.

Also only because certain people (not includign me9 are casual gamers doesn't mean automatically, that hard Mode is for these peopel beyond their abilities. Saying that has something imo of an insult against casual gamers beign too dumb for hard mode, if you ask me Burst Cancel >.> like

"Go little Noob ,stay with your Teddy Bear in the safe NM, in HM will eat you only the big scary monsters, as long your are not strong enough to selfdefense you without your Teddy Bear"

It is really exactly that "its ok to play ursan like you say in NM, but for HM you want to forbid it huh?" thats the point I mentioned, where people should stop to dictate others how they should play the game. Only because you have a personal problem with UB, doesn't mean, that automatically all will have the same problem with it, like you have it

When I want to play ursan in hardmode, regardless of which reasons, then Anet should let me, anyone should let me and nobody has the right to forbid me which skills I should/can use, and which not, with the exception of naturally pve only skills not being usable in pvp, but thats understandable - therefore they are called PVE ONLY-Skills.

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Mesmer are just simple boring, because they have absolutely no skills, that you would imagine under that Class, which should be masters of "Sleep", because thats is the real specialization of the Mesmers - Sleep Control through Hypnosis.

What?

Look, logic doesn't apply to Guild Wars. When I use Dismember, I don't dismember a part of the enemies' body.

If you feel Mesmers are boring, don't play that profession. You are entitled to running any of the 10 professions, which have different playstyles to them.

Burst Cancel · Jul 01, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The classes are fine, it's just the way PvE functions that makes them less efficient.
It's been discussed over and over again in for example the Mesmer forum.

An odd distinction. By that argument, those classes shouldn't even be in PvE to begin with - you wouldn't use a screwdrive to hammer a nail, would you? The problem here is that, given that these classes are available for PvE, the fact that they aren't suitable for it is a class design flaw. Or maybe you'll argue that Anet never expected people to use these classes in PvE.

Quote:

And why then you feel that you are entitled to play HM without pve skills?
I play HM using the best skills at my disposal , if some of them are pve I will use them. And btw , PvE was designed for casuals to begin with , PvP is for real players. Anet devs must have been on some crazy sh*t when they got the idea to make more elite areas (urgoz , deep , doa) to please the PvE'ers. Every player is entitled to every aspect of this game , it's his choice if he does that.

Hardmode is a difficulty setting, not additional content; the elite areas can be done in normal mode. Furthermore, casual players wouldn't actually be banned from hardmode - they just wouldn't be able to use cons or PvE skills in hardmode. Thus, anyone is free to play Hardmode provided that they have to aptitude to handle it. I fail to see how this is inherently unfair or undesirable.

Ultimately, I fail to see the point of adding a higher difficulty level, and then including tools to make it easier. The entire point of higher difficulty levels is to challenge and reward better players. A higher difficulty level that is still easy for bad players accomplishes absolutely nothing.

The expert/casual distinction exists in practically every skill-based activity we do. You're free to try the expert ski slopes if you want, but if you're not physically ready for them I doubt you're going to have much fun. Nobody has any problem with this sort of thing in real life, so why is this a problem in GW?

I honestly don't see how I can make this reasoning any clearer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

When I want to play ursan in hardmode, regardless of which reasons, then Anet should let me, anyone should let me and nobody has the right to forbid me which skills I should/can use, and which not, with the exception of naturally pve only skills not being usable in pvp, but thats understandable - therefore they are called PVE ONLY-Skills.

See above. Further, you simply state this as fact, without any supporting rationale. Why 'should' Anet 'let you'? Talking about 'rights' is laughable, because the only party here with any rights is Anet - specifically, they have the right to change their game however they want, regardless of your opinion. Just as they had every right to add Ursan, they have every right to take it away from you. The only thing you have a right to do is to chose whether to play the game.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Disabling pve skills in HM is catering , which brought us here in the first place. If you don't like playing in HM using ursan or pve skills , then don't , but please don't try to impose your view as the right one. If you play hardmode for the challenge and satisfaction then it shouldn't matter to you that someone is playing differently right?

Quote:

You're free to try the expert ski slopes if you want, but if you're not physically ready for them I doubt you're going to have much fun.

that existed in GW before HM , the expert slope was pvp.

Quote:

See above. Further, you simply state this as fact, without any supporting rationale. Why 'should' Anet 'let you'? Talking about 'rights' is laughable, because the only party here with any rights is Anet - specifically, they have the right to change their game however they want, regardless of your opinion. Just as they had every right to add Ursan, they have every right to take it away from you. The only thing you have a right to do is to chose whether to play the game.

You have the same right , use it but don't demand more like you demand now.

ALF71BE · Jul 01, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

-snip-

You fail to understand that this is a game that everyone plays like he/she likes to play and have fun, not like you want it to be played.

If you don't like Ursan, cons and other broken stuff, then don't use them.

If you dislike people who use them, then don't play with them. But you can't (and shouldn't) force everyone to play the way you want.

EroChrono · Jul 01, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Overall good points, although I have my doubts about the sabway part, especially with the suggestion about 7 heroes. Don't get me wrong, I'd love 7 heroes, but it would only make the "PvE Balance" situation far worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

It certainly kills it on the paragon. I'd personally like to see the +armor scale depending on how close you are to the shouter. Adjacent: +100, Nearby: +75, In The Area: +50, Earshot: +25. Forces the players to learn positioning to get the full effectiveness of the skill rather than c + space -> hit SY! button.

That would still gives paragons an edge over warriors using this warrior skill

Tyla · Jul 01, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

You fail to understand that this is a game that everyone plays like he/she likes to play and have fun, not like you want it to be played.

If you don't like Ursan, cons and other broken stuff, then don't use them.

If you dislike people who use them, then don't play with them. But you can't (and shouldn't) force everyone to play the way you want.

You fail to understand that the majority of the community use this, it is near impossible to find a group non-Ursan and that is avoiding the problems, not fixing them. I wonder if DLDU strawmen can be reported.

kostolomac · Jul 01, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Elite areas excluded the DLDU argument about ursan is valid. If elite areas are a question you have several choices: 1. Just grind the title , 2. don't play them , 3. find someone who would and 4. guilds and alliances.
If ursan is removed , I would have to abandon my char who isn't the holy trinity or imbagon , and create a holy trinity/imbagon charr. I spent over 300 hrs with my charr ( for some not much , but my standards more than enough) , if ursan is removed , he can only /stand in in ToA or gates of anguish .

Second , ursan is not a problem , it's a solution (a bad one I must admit) to the idiotic game design of HM and elite areas (fight fire with fire).

lyra_song · Jul 01, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Ursan is a solution thats become its own problem. ;P

One that didn't have to be implemented so badly.