Curse

Destro Maniak · Sep 14, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

PvP says what up.

not everyone can go and start HA
it requires some title to start with

and that makes you grind for gold, then get hero point run

can someone tell me how you can find a party without any rank
YOU CANNOT
and when you cannot get in a party youc annot gain rank

MagmaRed · Sep 14, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

not everyone can go and start HA
it requires some title to start with

and that makes you grind for gold, then get hero point run

can someone tell me how you can find a party without any rank
YOU CANNOT
and when you cannot get in a party youc annot gain rank

There is more to PvP than ust HA. Ever consider RA, TA, HB, AB, GvG, FA, or JQ? Perhaps if you found a guild that did PvP, they would join you for HA. PUGing HA and expecting to win is why people require rank. Taking a guild team for HA and expecting to win is how people gain rank.

bhavv · Sep 15, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

There are no other forms of PVP other then TA, HA and GVG. You cannot play PVP without organisation, the others like RA and AB are purely skill less random gank fests where you go to do nothing but grind points.

That is that GW has become now, grind. It isnt even satisfying grind, I will rather go back to playing Maple Story and at least have fun while continuously grinding and killing things, and will play AoC again when it has more content (no point paying for an unfinished game).

GW has become everything it wasnt supposed to be, and with its model of reach maximum level and get maximum equips in just one day, they essentially have removed all aspect of fun from the so called 'optional' grinding.

I would rather grind for levels, more power and better equips for some sense of reward, accomplishment and improving my character, then grind for nothing but points and titles. But I know, you still like GW so it must be a great game, even to all those that hate it now. Have fun with your pointless grindfest for points and titles just to make you look 1337 and pr0.

fireflyry · Sep 15, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I would rather grind for levels, more power and better equips for some sense of reward, accomplishment and improving my character, then grind for nothing but points and titles.

Fair call but as you have said there are games where you can go do that.

You have to remember the fact the grind is pointless gives players like me the freedom to ignore it.

PuppyEater · Sep 15, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I would rather grind for levels, more power and better equips for some sense of reward, accomplishment and improving my character, then grind for nothing but points and titles.

Never mind the fact that there are titles which provide very real benefits or that the very nature of them creates a sense of accomplishment...

bhavv · Sep 15, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuppyEater

Never mind the fact that there are titles which provide very real benefits or that the very nature of them creates a sense of accomplishment...

Getting an extra 1% or so chance of my lockpicks not breaking after opening 1000 chests hardly makes any difference.

Running around with elite armor, rare weapons, and a bandana all dyed black with some title under my name doesnt feel anywhere near as rewarding as reaching a high level and soloing hard bosses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Fair call but as you have said there are games where you can go do that.

You have to remember the fact the grind is pointless gives players like me the freedom to ignore it.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Maple Story, the rest of the games arent free to play, and I do not play enough to justify the monthly spend.

There are also plenty of games with no grind altogether, it doesnt mean that PVE in an RPG works well without it. I have never wanted to play any part of PVE in GW after completing the game once, and that is its problem. Once you complete the game which takes a few days, the grind is no longer optional because all you have left to do is grind.

The game is pure grind once you have completed it, just like any other, except it is less fun.

SerenitySilverstar · Sep 15, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Running around with elite armor, rare weapons, and a bandana all dyed black with some title under my name doesnt feel anywhere near as rewarding as reaching a high level and soloing hard bosses.

What you want sounds like a hybrid of WoW and GW. And people would run screaming from it. GW was made to be DIFFERENT from WoW, which is why people play it/love it/don't play it/ignore it (wayhay, there's that choice thing again).

GW is what it is. It may not be perfect to some, but the beauty of the game is that you have the CHOICE to grind. Grinding the argument is an exercise in futility - the game construct is not going to change for a vocal minority, nor is your ranting going to change the mind of those people perfectly happy with the game.

Also, insulting those who are happy with the state of play is the last refuge of an exhausted debate.

You have your choice - grind or don't - just as much as we do. There's no need to force your play style on other people.

Avarre · Sep 15, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

GW is what it is. It may not be perfect to some, but the beauty of the game is that you have the CHOICE to grind.

Without grind, PvE is a short, mediocre story with little challenge wrapped in pretty graphics, and then there's PvP. With the fading of PvP and continual support for grind in PvE, it's clear the longevity of the game is being based on grind mechanics.

You have the choice not to grind in WoW too, but the game is pretty empty without it.

bhavv · Sep 15, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

What you want sounds like a hybrid of WoW and GW. And people would run screaming from it. GW was made to be DIFFERENT from WoW, which is why people play it/love it/don't play it/ignore it (wayhay, there's that choice thing again).

GW is what it is. It may not be perfect to some, but the beauty of the game is that you have the CHOICE to grind. Grinding the argument is an exercise in futility - the game construct is not going to change for a vocal minority, nor is your ranting going to change the mind of those people perfectly happy with the game.

Also, insulting those who are happy with the state of play is the last refuge of an exhausted debate.

You have your choice - grind or don't - just as much as we do. There's no need to force your play style on other people.

If GW was a direct WOW clone and free to play, for every player that left the game, 10 players would join from leaving WOW.

I certainly remember plenty of people agreeing in the past that PVE in GW is a joke.

GW2 is already going to have more levels and grind anyway, I wonder just why they arent carrying over the 20 level cap from GW? Oh yea, because they broke it by adding grind.

No one would leave GW if, lets say for example, each new campaign had added another 20 levels. The game is completely free to play, you would lose nothing from having to spend a few months to reach max level rather then just one day. The only reason people started playing GW isnt because it had no grind, but because it has no fees.

And I dont see grinding in GW as only being a choice. Everyone completes the game at some point, after which all they have left to do is grind.

And I havnt insulted anyone at all, I am simply discussing the mechanics of this game, no need to take offence because I think the game is broken.

w00t! · Sep 15, 2008, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Without grind, PvE is a short, mediocre story with little challenge wrapped in pretty graphics

PvE can be lots of fun if you're playing with the right people. There is a huge amount of content spread across three continents. Sound like you're in the wrong guild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

it's clear the longevity of the game is being based on grind mechanics.

You have the choice not to grind in WoW too, but the game is pretty empty without it.

You may want to read this

SerenitySilverstar · Sep 15, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

But why do you want more levels? What will having a higher level number get you? In the end it's just a number that has - and will have in GW2 - no relevance to your stats or abilities.

Quote:

GW2 is already going to have more levels and grind anyway, I wonder just why they arent carrying over the 20 level cap from GW? Oh yea, because they broke it by adding grind.

No, because people kept saying they wanted a number beside their name to show how leet and how much "work" they put into the game they are.

Quote:

Everyone completes the game at some point, after which all they have left to do is grind.

Subjective. People will go and do what the WANT to do. Why is Choice such a dirty word around here?

Avarre · Sep 15, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

PvE can be lots of fun if you're playing with the right people. There is a huge amount of content spread across three continents. Sound like you're in the wrong guild.

Fun wasn't part of my statement.

As much fun as I might have, the game is still easy, and still short. I could have fun with that same group of people doing any other activity, and indeed, most of my guildmates migrated to other games.

Nice job on the wiki link, but if you don't see that GW:EN (and Factions/NF to degrees) had duration tacked onto it with game-lengthening grind, you're blind.

fireflyry · Sep 15, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have never wanted to play any part of PVE in GW after completing the game once, and that is its problem.

Actually that's your problem.

We all have hugely differing play styles and ideals, I gather GW no longer seems to fit yours.

I finished the whole game a long time ago yet I still play each week and wouldn't bother if I didn't enjoy it.I'm gathering you clearly define enjoyment by the ability to play new content.

Non-subscription is epic fail for that expectation.

It's not the game at fault, it's placing unrealistic expectations on the format that leads to such opinions which is beyond the control of the developers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The game is pure grind once you have completed it, just like any other, except it is less fun.

Again I don't grind and still hugely enjoy the game, mainly through helping friends and PuG's.

To be honest all I'm hearing is that you have personally exhausted all the desirable elements of the game that you personally enjoyed and now wish for a tier reward and gear system to keep you interested.

There's a simple solution.

boarderx · Sep 15, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

well any game that you want to 100% complete (if you want to cal it that) would be a grind. It wouldnt be a HUGE accompishment if we could all fill our HoMs in a week. Filling it is impressive because it is such a grand feat. ill probably never fill mine cuz i have too much fun BSing with my guildies and allies doing other stuff then to title chase til im bored of it.

any game that has grind appeals to a more hard core gamer, GW has gotten a great mix of gameplay here that appeals to hardcore and casual gamers.

But yes filling your HoM can be quite a grind (my hats off to you that accomplish that)

Quaker · Sep 15, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

At this point in the Guild Wars game all actions which players take to advance result in achievement for the Hall of Monuments. While the developers of Guild Wars 2 debate how much if any the achievements in the Hall of Monuments will influence the next generation of the game, we can safely say that completing the Hall of Monuments is now the primary result and focus of play.

If it is true, that filling the HoM has become the focus of anyone's play, they have only themselves to blame. The fact that some fools think there is any real significance to filling the HoM, does not make the game a "grind fest" - it makes their own approach to the game a grind fest. You can turn any game into a grind-fest by repeatedly doing something for no real reason.

Playing GW does not actually require you to grind for anything. The small increases you get in the effectiveness of Asuran/Norn/Vanguard/Dwarven skills, for example, by going from R8 to R10 will not actually have any real affect on how well you can play the game (PvE). So, if you insist that for whatever reason, you must max all the titles, it's up to your own desires - the game doesn't really require it.

Of course, for some people, if they don't start the game with max everything, they think that simply playing the game is a "grind", so what can ya say to them?

TwinRaven · Sep 15, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I know I don't NEED titles, but after playing for so long, I've chosen a few as simple goals for my primary character. Some I've done for challenge alone (Masters level on all missions) and some for the benifits in character/hero flexibility (All Elites capped).

BUT...Here's where it gets "grindy" for me: Let's say I want to get ANY of the title tracks (Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Deldrimor and the like...). If I want any of these title tracks, it is not enough to merely complete all the missions and dungeons pertaining to the title in both regular and Hard Modes, oh, no! I MUST either participate in activities like Dwarven Boxing or Polymok for countless hours, or find a high pay-out mission and repeat it endlessly until the title is reached.

How many of us have done the ol' LB/SS farm with the Rune of Doom in our inventory for weeks on end to get those titles, or killed and rekilled Facet Dragons without ever claiming the reward for the mission...over and over....blah! The problem is having little other alternative for acheiving some titles other than mindless grinding (unless you want to redo a bunch of missions and have it take longer than the "points farm" missions/quests).

I guess I just don't see why the point values to certain titles are set so high that grinding/farming points is the only way to acheive them. Why not have them set just high enough that if you do everything in regular AND HM you need only participate in a few more activities to get the maxed points. Three weeks of riding worms through the dessert 3-4 hours a day is simply not fun...and only semi-profitable. Killing Facet Dragons for weeks has gotten me to rank 8, but it is SO not fun I'm only good for 1-2 runs before I quit and find otherr things to do. So close to 15 maxed titles! But sacrificing fun in the process.

To each his own I suppose. For me, I want a few titles and I'm willing to put effort into getting them, I just wish the effort was put towards something a little more interesting/worthwhile/fun than killing the same beasties hundreds of times because it's faster (by days/weeks) than the alternatives. Someone start a petition for triple Asura/Norn/Deldrimor/Vanguard points Weekend...better yet, the whole Week!

SerenitySilverstar · Sep 15, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

How many of us have done the ol' LB/SS farm with the Rune of Doom in our inventory for weeks on end to get those titles, or killed and rekilled Facet Dragons without ever claiming the reward for the mission...over and over....blah! The problem is having little other alternative for acheiving some titles other than mindless grinding (unless you want to redo a bunch of missions and have it take longer than the "points farm" missions/quests).

Actually there are alternatives to repetitive grind - for LB/SS it's vanquishing and quests. For EoTN rep, it's vanquishing and Hero Handbooks. But wait - yes, they do take time and effort.

FCOL people, if you want something, work for it - either do the concerted effort of what GW people call "grind" (really, nothing compared to years long work in other games), or take the TIME to work on those books/quests/vanquishing.

Y'all sound like you want the game pre-played for you. (PS: Twin Raven, I do see that, yay for you, you put out there you are willing to put the effort in)

Red Sonya · Sep 16, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

GW is only a grindfest if you choose to play that part of the game which ISN'T REQUIRED. Everything in HOM is EXTRA it serves no purpose in GW and is really only for an added benefit (nobody knows what yet) for GW2 promotions. So stop complaining there is no grind required in GW of any significance except leveling and getting your skills and that one sunspear title ONLY in Nightfall. All chapters are INDEPENDENT of one another so if you grind YOU CHOOSE TO GRIND no one is forcing you.

draxynnic · Sep 16, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

I do, I think that PvE only skills are the worst idea ever implement by Anet.

Agreed, the way they were implemented. I've always maintained they should have been tied to regular attributes just like other skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

I'm surprised that you completed all of the quests in GW:EN and did not reach at least R5 in each title track. Didn't know that was possible.

It's fairly easy, actually. Before turning in books, my Mesmer had r4 in both Asura and Vanguard after collecting all the PvE skills, except for the Asura summons, from both. (a book back while books weren't worth much pipped her over on Vanguard with the help of some outright grinding, and then a buffed book jumped her straight to r6 on Asura.)

She's still on r4, and in the lower part therof, of the Norn and Deldrimnor tracks, again with all skills from each (except possibly the boxing ones - those I think I've just have done with the physicals so far). This also includes completing a couple of dungeons that grant points in these tracks for completion - without those, she might still only be r3 for Deldrimnor.

So, it's possible to have collected all the skills with, at most, r5 Asura and 4 on all the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

And I dont see grinding in GW as only being a choice. Everyone completes the game at some point, after which all they have left to do is grind.

See, I'm happy to just run all ten professions through the content. Sure, I'm not playing as much as when it was all 'new', but often enough.

Long level grinds are pretty much the antithesis of my playstyle. Diablo 2, for instance - I never got a character above level 40. Why? Because I prefer to spend my time tasting all the fruits of the tree rather than eating the same one over and over again. Play the same content over again with the same character, with or without harder monsters, when I could instead play that content with a fresh new character? Butter that for a game of soldiers.

Now, translate that into GW. The low level cap meant that instead of being forced to play one character continuously to get to the top of the power band and access the endgame content, I can get my full stable of characters up to a competitive point fairly quickly. That most areas are the same level means that when someone asks for help with a particular mission, I don't need to find what character is at a comparable level and bring that - I can play whichever character I feel like playing because they're ALL at a comparable level!

Now, I understand that other people have different playstyles and play the game in different ways. However, we don't need to have every single game on the market catering for one playstyle and nothing at all for anyone else. Stop being greedy, all you grinders!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I still need to kill the Great Destroyer six more times, and the Lich three more times. It's not repetitive because each time I do it, I'll be doing it differently!

glacialphoenix · Sep 16, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinRaven

BUT...Here's where it gets "grindy" for me: Let's say I want to get ANY of the title tracks (Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Deldrimor and the like...). If I want any of these title tracks, it is not enough to merely complete all the missions and dungeons pertaining to the title in both regular and Hard Modes, oh, no!

Actually, going for Legendary Master of the North should get you those titles along the way, and someone already mentioned that you can get LB/SS via vanquishing. But I do appreciate that vanquishing isn't everyone's cup of tea. I got my titles mostly during double point weekends - went on a vanquish spree in different areas because it was more interesting than pure farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Now, translate that into GW. The low level cap meant that instead of being forced to play one character continuously to get to the top of the power band and access the endgame content, I can get my full stable of characters up to a competitive point fairly quickly.

Agreed. If I don't want to play monk, I play ele, and the experience is different.