Curse

Avarre · Sep 11, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

This has been discussed to death and is the only logical end-result of the non-subscription blueprint.Period.

I don't see how people playing a game they don't have to pay any more for makes money for ANet.

fireflyry · Sep 11, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

In terms of grind and HoM they are playing to attain rewards and content for GW2.

Avarre · Sep 11, 2008, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

In terms of grind and HoM they are playing to attain rewards and content for GW2.

So what you're trying to say is that Guild Wars needs to keep selling copies of itself, and then sell a lot of copies of the sequel.

Nowhere in this is the necessity for grind or bad gameplay.

You could make a case for grind being the easiest (thus cheapest) way to keep players paying attention to Guild Wars, but that's pretty speculative.

fireflyry · Sep 11, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So what you're trying to say is that Guild Wars needs to keep selling copies of itself, and then sell a lot of copies of the sequel.

Nowhere in this is the necessity for grind or bad gameplay.

You could make a case for grind being the easiest (thus cheapest) way to keep players paying attention to Guild Wars, but that's pretty speculative.

It's either integration of grind in conjunction with motivation to do it, stagnation or new content.

Given that Anet long ago said EotN was the last substantial content release it seems logical grind would be the next step to keep players logging on outside the realms of just playing for enjoyment.HoM was an obvious grind reward system from the outset.

The other options are to either leave it as is or close down the servers.Imagine the community reaction and flow on effect that would have.

To me it's a simple comparison of the non-subscription vs subscription based MMO business models with people simply confusing the two and what happens when the former stops releasing content while creating false expectations and demands of what they are entitled to.

Rather than realize GW is pretty much at an end and move on it's easier to complain about the manner in which Anet have decided to slowly bring a close to the game.

There is no regular new content which equates to a shelf life yet people can't seem to grasp that this has lead to Anet introducing motivation and reward to repeat content, all be it at a "harder" level or to attain items specifically for HoM rewards.

Complaining about the obvious substitution of grind reward in place of new content in a non-subscription MMO that has clearly stated "that's it" for substantial content releases just makes no sense to me although it's a blatantly obvious and expected repercussion.

I hate grind as much as the next guy, I don't, but the main problem imho is that people simply won't walk away from the game as opposed to stay and complain over such an obvious and logical conclusion.

All opinions and arguments for and against have been stated in a thousand threads hence I'll leave mine at that.

Good luck to you.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

This is a very simple issue, really. As long as you put objective in games, people will pursue them.

Now guild wars has objectives like:
- http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Drunkard

Disregarding the time needed to acquire the alcohol....

Quote:

The 10,000 minutes required for completing this title track takes about 6 days, 22 hours, and 40 minutes to achieve.

That is 6 days 22 hours and 40 minutes of clicking the mouse button once at every minute. Nothing more. Just sit there, wait the minute to go by and click the mouse again.

No game I have ever *heard* of has built in the tool for such a grind. It does not matter if it is optional or not, as long as it is built in, people will get trapped into it. Not all people are built in with the strength to resist the temptation to achieve objectives of the game they are playing that they haven't yet achieved.

To be honest this would be one reason I would not like my kid (if I had one) to play this game.

However it saddens me a lot when I see a toon go by with that maxed title on. I always think: "poor guy, what did ANet do to his life?".

I've gotta give it to ArenaNet. I think they win the "grind of the century academy award" with this.

But wait, there is even a better one and more commonly pursued than that! It is called FFF (fast faction farming). If it is anything else but fast. So players are supposed to max a title by repeating a quest approximately 25k times. Each such "run" would take about 2 minutes.

And the run goes like:
- flag hero 1 at precise point 1, hero 2 at precise point 2, hero 3 at precise point 3
- press 1,2,3 then wait x seconds then press 4,5,6
- repeat until done
Or so. You can read more on the official wiki pages, it's all documented there.

Now if there is anything more saddening than a drunkard title maxed, than this might be it. I mean this reduces one persons mind to the state of a robot that repeats for thousands of times the same task (pressing the same keys in the same sequence at same time intervals).

You can't seriously believe that this would not take its toll on the mind health of the person getting trapped into it. And this is why I would be seriously concerned if my kid would play this game.

I know better than that and can stay away from such "temptations", but not everybody realizes what they're getting into and what effects that has on you. And people are competitive, seeing someone with a max drunkard title might tempt you to equal him. And once people start on that path they don't really stop because "it isn't much more to go and i've got this far!".

tmakinen · Sep 11, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Disregarding the time needed to acquire the alcohol.... That is 6 days 22 hours and 40 minutes of clicking the mouse button once at every minute. Nothing more. Just sit there, wait the minute to go by and click the mouse again.

It's your choice to just sit there. Ever heard of multitasking? I drank while vanquishing (and since I used Spiked Eggnog it was one click every three minutes - I even programmed a beeper applet to remind me when it was time to quaff another nog) and got Drunkard maxed at the same time as Legendary Vanquisher. And it was fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

It does not matter if it is optional or not, as long as it is built in, people will get trapped into it. Not all people are built in with the strength to resist the temptation to achieve objectives of the game they are playing that they haven't yet achieved.

So how's your Hero title coming along? Or Gladiator or Champion? Gotta max them all, oh yeah ...

The gist of the entire thread is that some people blame ANet for their own psychological problems. If you cannot resist doing something optional that you dislike it's time to seek professional help.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

It's your choice to just sit there. Ever heard of multitasking? I drank while vanquishing (and since I used Spiked Eggnog it was one click every three minutes - I even programmed a beeper applet to remind me when it was time to quaff another nog) and got Drunkard maxed at the same time as Legendary Vanquisher. And it was fun.

Oh fun fun... you need to play a game with a timer now! Awesome indeed.

I think ArenaNet should get into the business of selling these timers as well.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Actually, such game is excellent way to measure and identify such problems in early teens. Should parents be worth a damn, notice it and take action.

Had a good laugh. Yes I guess that would be one good use of the grinds in GW. As a psychological test tool.

On a more serious note, it is debatable if "such" problems are "identifiable" by GW or they are caused by it. Teens learn everything, including addictions. I don't think you get born with an addiction, you develop one. But I'm not a specialist in the area so....

Tijger · Sep 11, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Oh fun fun... you need to play a game with a timer now! Awesome indeed.

I think ArenaNet should get into the business of selling these timers as well.

Ever tried such fun grinding as fishing in WoW? Hours upon hour just to gain a level, not a title, a level.

So, please, stop embarrassing yourself by pretending GW invented grind or is an example of the worst type of grind, there's a lot worse out there.

All GW grind is optional and its there because before we had grind this forum was filled daily with threads QQ'ing that players finished the game and had nothing left to do. You asked for it, you got it, but at least you can partake or not partake in it, unlike other MMO's where its required.

tmakinen · Sep 11, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Oh fun fun... you need to play a game with a timer now! Awesome indeed.

The timer was strictly not needed, it just made the drinking more economical (no booze wasted by drinking too early and thus beyond the cap, no time wasted by drinking too late and thus losing the buzz). The main point that seems to escape you is that I maxed the title - casually and without grind - while doing something fun. Since I got the title and had fun as well it looks like I win on both accounts

Abnaxus · Sep 11, 2008, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The timer was strictly not needed, it just made the drinking more economical (no booze wasted by drinking too early and thus beyond the cap, no time wasted by drinking too late and thus losing the buzz). The main point that seems to escape you is that I maxed the title - casually and without grind - while doing something fun. Since I got the title and had fun as well it looks like I win on both accounts

I did exactly the same, those timers are small .exe programs you can find everywhere in the web, and they allow you to drink while playing the game instead of staying in GH or anywhere else doing nothing.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The timer was strictly not needed, it just made the drinking more economical (no booze wasted by drinking too early and thus beyond the cap, no time wasted by drinking too lateI and thus losing the buzz). The main point that seems to escape you is that I maxed the title - casually and without grind - while doing something fun. Since I got the title and had fun as well it looks like I win on both accounts

The point that seems to escape you is that I don't find having a buzzer to ring me every 3 mins fun but rather stressful, as I don't find killing each and every foe possible in HM fun. Both drunkard and vanquisher are grinds.

And the main point that you are missing that you did that because there was nothing else really interesting to do, had there be you wouldn't go into killing just everybody on all maps while drinking every 3 mins at the reminder of a buzz. Would you have done that a new GW chapter was available?

Don't think so...

Arduin · Sep 11, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And the main point that you are missing that you did that because there was nothing else really interesting to do, had there be you wouldn't go into killing just everybody on all maps while drinking every 3 mins at the reminder of a buzz. Would you have done that a new GW chapter was available?

Don't think so...

I did. I was happily wallhugging and killing every monster I could find during the Prophecies days. I would only venture beyond the Old Ascalon area after I'd cleared all of the map, done all quests, gotten all skills. So I voluntarily did this, only stalling my progress in the story. And I sure had fun while doing it.

More, when Factions launched, it gave me a title for it. Seeing I needed to clear another 2% of the map only made go try and find those last areas.

When HM launched, it gave me a title for stuff I already was doing: killing every monster in the area.

Sure, when Factions or Nightfall launched, I played that Campaign. But after I finished the story, I took up Prophecies again to vanquish/wallhug. After that the same with other campaigns.

It just the way I play games, or better, this game. I don't see vanquishing as grinding, I don't see drunkard as grinding. But hey, that's my opinion.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Just to make it obvious if it isn't already:

I don't mind other people grinding, to each his own.

I mind that the game has turned into a creepy "fill your HoM" rush, which as the OP mentioned is a horrible and daunting task.

I mind that ANet wants to "reward" long time players of the game by making them grind to fill a HoM instead of just giving you something cool cause you have a 2 years old account and finished all 3 campaigns or something.

I mind that ANet envisions more GW2 rewards for grinders (max 30 titles and so) than for people that have 3+ years old accounts with them that don't care about grinding.

And most of all I mind that all outpost are deserted and I can never find a party do play with, because all PvE-ers are grinding right now. Vanquishing with H/H somewhere, drinking and so. Playing with others just for fun it's not an option anymore.

Yeah... that's my problem with grinds. But who cares?

tmakinen · Sep 11, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I don't find having a buzzer to ring me every 3 mins fun but rather stressful, as I don't find killing each and every foe possible in HM fun.

Then do something else and let those who find it fun do as they well please. Do you know the meaning of the word 'optional'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Both drunkard and vanquisher are grinds.

Only if you make one out of them. Besides, you are only killing each monster once so it doesn't meet the repeating requirement unless you count all fighting as grind "oh boy I used a skill, if I'll ever have to use the same skill again it will be grind!". The problem is with you, not with the game itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

And most of all I mind that all outpost are deserted and I can never find a party do play with, because all PvE-ers are grinding right now. Vanquishing with H/H somewhere, drinking and so. Playing with others just for fun it's not an option anymore.

So here's the real reason ... you want ANet to remove content from the game to force people to do what you find fun so that you get company because it's so wrong that people have fun together when they do something that you don't find fun.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The problem is with you, not with the game itself.

Some of us really don't deserve a better game, really.

Say what. To make it more fun for you, ANet should add 1000 more random generated areas with random monsters that you can vanq. That would make you happy for another more year wouldn't it?

Anyway I had fun with the last update: cool quests not making me bang my head against the wall because of their diffficulty but rather made me smile when I saw myself disguised as an Am Fah. And all the golems in the outposts are just hilarious. And people are having fun with that. Simple pure stupid fun.

And that was the first time I had fun in gw in ages. Since gwen I think.

Quote:

game
n.

1. An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime: party games; word games.

tmakinen · Sep 11, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

that was the first time I had fun in gw in ages. Since gwen I think.

So why have you been playing then if you didn't have fun while playing?

Shasgaliel · Sep 11, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Fun is different for everyone and so is grind. I like vanquishing and I like doing quests. However If I had to choose I would say vanquishing is more fun than for example farming. In general quests have repeatable patterns: go there kill that, go there bring that, survive X waves of enemies and so on with a story around it. Golem quests were very nicely done but most of them arent. For some of us doing quests can be considered grind as well. Vanquishing is exciting for me because of randomness of spawns and drops. I am always for a new content in the game and new areas to explore and I will try to do every single new quest but I after that I will keep vanquishing because that gives me the most fun in GW. Much more than pvp.

Test Me · Sep 11, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

So why have you been playing then if you didn't have fun while playing?

Hoping that the online game i like most would get back on track. However all my friends have moved on now... and probably i should do so too.

I guess I'm just giving feedback on this forum somehow thinking that this would matter. But then again, I think that is not realistic.

Arduin · Sep 11, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

So what went wrong with this game? I was intrigued by Anet's business model: one new campaign every 6 months. It would give you plenty of time to play one campaign to it's fullest, and after 6 months you would get a brand new adventure.

However, after Nightfall it became apparent Anet wanted to take GW to a direction they weren't able to with their former business model. 2 new professions every 6 months, hundreds of skills added... It just didn't work. So Anet abandoned their model, and introduced many more content of the category 'grind'. Be it titles, PvE-skills or anyother PvE-wise. All to keep us busy playing their game, without having to come up with a new Campaign.

In the meantime, Anet is working on GW2. They stopped producing stuff for GW1, so I'd say the game won't ever be like the game we bought 3 years ago. Anet can't revert their decisions without causing a giant uproar.

So what's left? Playing GW1, hoping Anet will give us back our pre-Nightfall game, or playing GW1 however you want and enjoy it.

Or thirdly, just stop playing, and see what the future will bring us... GW2 is still far off, but there's no need to keep playing GW1 if it gets boring/annoying. I know I did. I severely cut down on my playing time. Only logging in once every few days. Only to do the stuff I really enjoy. And it makes the game better, it really does.