Curse

BrettM · Oct 03, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

5) How is doing exactly same things that player did on only one different from doing them split on several characters different? They all have to be done or there is no gwamm for them. Where is difference for you?

I think some people see the difference as getting GWAMM on multiple characters for the same effort they put out to get it on one. I.e., if it takes X hours to get it on one, it should take 2X hours to get it on two, 3X hours for three, etc. As you noted, "character>player mindset".

I think this is where the talk of "transferring" titles is coming from. If I put in X/2 hours to get 15 titles on character 1 and X/2 hours to get 15 different titles on character 2, which character gets GWAMM? Under the current scheme, neither of them. Under one of the schemes being suggested, both of them. How would you implement this without allowing both characters to display all 30 titles even though each only earned 15? Thus, each character would be "transferring" 15 titles to the other one. (And to any other characters on the account, even if they haven't earned a single title. All would be GWAMM.)

Under the "head start" scheme, which I like, only the pure-grind and bought titles would be account-wide. All characters get credit for those and the work can be split among characters, while each character has to earn the achievement-based titles individually. That would, of course, mean that getting additional characters to GWAMM takes less effort than it does at present, because some of the work doesn't have to be repeated.

If it takes X hours to get 30 titles, it will still take X hours if, say, five titles are made account-wide. But, for multiple characters, you will only need to earn 55 titles instead of 60 for two characters, 80 instead of 90 for three characters, etc. Instead of nX hours for n characters, it would take (n(X - Y) + Y) hours, where Y is the number of hours it took to max the account-wide titles. Seeing as the grind titles are so very time consuming, Y is likely to be a very large percentage of X, substantially reducing the time needed for a new character to make GWAMM.

Dr.Jones · Oct 03, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Drops Az

Its all your fault :P No different from the QQing in pvp areas from what Ive experienced, just a different starting subject

its true but most people who have responded to this tread have outlandish ideas as to what the changes are going to be and have added on things that were not talked about by linsey. the only things she stated AS THINGS SHE MIGHT CHANGE. are Treasure Hunter and Wisdom, and a possible rework of how you get faction for the ab tiles, and maybe raseing the Faction Cap (not the title cap like some of you dolts thought before) she didnt say anything in regards to any of the other titles that have been talked about in this tread.

DarkNecrid · Oct 03, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Drops Az

I am so glad that you know the reasons that everyone should have when buying the game,... but... lets just analyse what you said one moment...

Why yes, in fact ArenaNet stated multiple times the reasons you should have when buying the game:
-Superb competitive experience with PvE leading up to it.
-Earning fame and glory at the HoH
-No grind, skill determines your ability, not time.

o look none of those exist anymore.

Quote:

Lets see.. if I remember that far back.. Prophecies had "NO" titles - therefore, from your statement - titles have no interest to you (being that you like it as was) and so why are you even commenting on a thread about titles changes??

Absolutism is fun.

Yes, Prophecies had no titles, and no, they do not matter to me in-so-far as I'm gonna cry when they change GWAMM, but I do enjoy their concept since they are a rather popular current-gen feature (Achievements in TF2, Achievements in WoW, Achievements on X-Box 360, etc), and I enjoy collecting them, however, most of them are too grindy and don't adhere to what Guild Wars was meant to be.

Quote:

I guess your $50 for prophecies was more important than others who bought it for THEIR not your reasons along with the follow up chapters. Following your arguement, Im sure there are some people who bought the game and played the game because of the titles/achievements (or anet wouldnt have put them in after checking the market).
Why should those players have to have their game changed? they have just as much right as you.

Anet put them in as an artificial life extender, but some of the bars are too high. I want them lowered to be less grindy for the average person. What you fail to realize is that it'll still take time, but the average person has multiple characters and rarely a main. The title system only helps the dedicated elite and gives little to no room for the casual to advance, which is not the point. The point is to make content that the elite will decidely advance through faster, but that the casual can overcome too, just later. But casuals who have multiple characters are unable to do this. Either way, both groups of people invest the same amount of time, but now we're thinking good game design where the casual can catch up to the elite eventually and fairly, instead of a system where the casual have to stick to one character just to get anywhere.

gj assuming all my opinions though, you know what they say about that.

Lycan Nibbler · Oct 03, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

Titles are something that cannot be undone at this point in time. If many a player had their way, titles would be abolished completely, but the mistake was made that later additions to the guild wars francise clung to the concept of a title requirement, in order to complete and access specific tasks.

Do you think there would be less people playing now if there weren't titles? I think so.
I also tend to think of titles as anets answer to having a lvl 20 max - you cant go around with your level 90+ (as in d2) so you go around with your title instead.

Lycan Nibbler · Oct 03, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Jones

its true but most people who have responded to this tread have outlandish ideas as to what the changes are going to be and have added on things that were not talked about by linsey. the only things she stated AS THINGS SHE MIGHT CHANGE. are Treasure Hunter and Wisdom, and a possible rework of how you get faction for the ab tiles, and maybe raseing the Faction Cap (not the title cap like some of you dolts thought before) she didnt say anything in regards to any of the other titles that have been talked about in this tread.

haha it reminds me of some meetings Ive been in at work before - start on one subject and end up at the other end of the earth

.
I kind of like the speculation - even though as you say the changes will likely be minor (why they didnt make the Lux/Kurz faction work the same as balt and increase with levels I have no clue).

I know as Ive done everything on my main char - that th going account wide will help me but I am guilty of being drawn into the rest of the conversations - I guess I find it more fun than playing gw atm

I think we suspect that Linsey never does anything by half measures and half the fun is the .....................................anticipation. ....

Lycan Nibbler · Oct 03, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Why yes, in fact ArenaNet stated multiple times the reasons you should have when buying the game:
-Superb competitive experience with PvE leading up to it.
-Earning fame and glory at the HoH
-No grind, skill determines your ability, not time.

o look none of those exist anymore.

-Competitive is relative - the dwindling number of players contributes to that decreasing I think. Look at Prophecies though, it is a large pve experience, certainly something that is larger than I personally would expect if GW was focused primarily on PvP ( I would guess this was marketing to sell units - but just a guess).
- Wasnt it just a month or so ago that someone gained fame and glory from getting the R15? Not much change in HoH I think apart from a diff fotm and less players now.
- Grind is such a relative term, personally, if something felt like a grind I probably wouldnt do it but most of the titles Ive got were through playing and helping others through the game. Kurz hffing wasnt much of a grind (until the end wasin sight anyway) as I chatted in vent while I flagged and did it competitively mostly for guild contests.
I resisted getting GW for 6 months until I finally bought it, but I bought it for the PvE content ( and the thoughts of guild battles from WC on battle net).

Quote:

Absolutism is fun.

It is, I agree... then we might not have had the power creep that made all pve easier.

Quote:

Anet put them in as an artificial life extender, but some of the bars are too high. I want them lowered to be less grindy for the average person. What you fail to realize is that it'll still take time, but the average person has multiple characters and rarely a main. The title system only helps the dedicated elite and gives little to no room for the casual to advance, which is not the point. The point is to make content that the elite will decidely advance through faster, but that the casual can overcome too, just later. But casuals who have multiple characters are unable to do this. Either way, both groups of people invest the same amount of time, but now we're thinking good game design where the casual can catch up to the elite eventually and fairly, instead of a system where the casual have to stick to one character just to get anywhere.

The first one being Kurz/Lux, Im not sure if they were thinking of that as a life extender then (maybe an extender of factions due to less content maybe).
I didnt have a main char. Actually, I had to play on my storage account when factions came out due to the CE delay. That account ended up taking over as my main one. I made a choice to use one for titles. It does not mean I dont play any of the other 13 chars I have , they all have titles of some form or another (my main char isnt my fav char and I would so love to be able to change names of chars in GW...>.<)
The question is , do you think the casual player should have the gwamm title? Isnt that meant to be somewhat exclusive and something to aim for rather than just getting through casual gameplay? (I use the term exclusive loosely).
There are individual titles for many different types of players - maybe the wisdom and TH were made for the chest runners that were around and not made for a casual player to acheive the max?
Just some thoughts....after all, pvp titles are far from easy to attain, especially for casual players.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

-snip several posts of anti-account based titles and account wise GWAMM-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

Why should every player be able to achieve GWAMM without massive grinding?

Eh, if Kurzick/Luxon titles become easier to max, and Wisdom/Treasure Hunter/Drunkard/Sweet Tooth/Party Animal becomes account based. People can still pretty much only get 8 max account based title (those said above and Un/Luck and Zaishen).

That's not even People Know Me. And there would still be grinding. If you want to get GWAMM, even if you do every non-PvP Grinding title (which would be Kurzick, Luxon, Lucky, Unlucky, Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Wisdom, Treasure Hunter, Sunspear, Lightbringer, Norn, Dwarven, Vanguard, Asura) You only have 14 titles, more then likely, only 7 max will be account based. So in order to get GWAMM on every character, you still need to do 16 other titles, which are not grind titles but achievement titles. (Only achievement title that is no matter what a grind is LDoA, which I hope they fix).

What I hate is that people say all titles should be account based. Only the grind should be, and PvP titles. Protector and stuff should not be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

Uh, who the hell ever said you would need to grind out GWAMM for GW2? O_o Even if you did, titles still do not mean anything. At all.

Besides, it'd most likely be "Full HoM ---> Special Whatever", and you do not need GWAMM to get a full HoM.

Your right, it's not GWAMM. If you fill your HoM, you only need rank 4 for max statue effect. Rank 5 if you don't max the HoM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

My argument is that GWAMM is a character based title (as designed by a-net) and those that have played to achieve it as per the concept behind the title would most likely prefer to keep it character based.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

My point is, that the very concept behind maxed titles is character based, there has not been one argument put forward that shows exactly why a-net should change this core concept to the complete opposite, other than to say "we want easier maxed titles" it isn't meant to be easy (tbh it isn't hugely difficult to do anyway)

The problem with this, is that it punishes people who play multiple characters. Even moreso to those who don't have a main character, or a title character.

It might have been designed originally to be character based, but that is only because the titles were character based. Change titles to account based and GWAMM is designed to be account based.

i g2g for the moment, will get back to arguing and overlooking the thread later.

nvmu · Oct 03, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

Okay. Argument~

-The insane levels of grindng go against what Guild Wars originally stands for.

-A-net does not want the acquisition of titles to consume a player's social-life (part of which is why the 'time playing' reminders even exist).

A-net have woken up, looked back on their 'design brief' if you will, and see where they have gone wrong. Therefore, adjusting is being made.
Its not fixing something that isnt broken. It's improving something that isnt perfect.

IF in fact HoM will be account wide liek it is suppose to be soon in the future, u don't need to have GWAMM to get all the bonuses in gw2 so they should just leave it alone

And on a side note... they added one of the most tedious titles to get unless you have stacks and stacks of ectos what in mid summer? Z title 20,000 Zkeys to max that title, so even if you manage to farm 5 keys a day it would still take a person 4000 days to max the title, so if they have just decided to reduce grind, why was this newest title made to make it so you have to grind (either for cash or faction) to max it

SlipknotOFA · Oct 03, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I dont think they are going to mess with the faction count on Kurzick and Luxon QQ. I think they are going to add something to make it easier to get faction ... Maybe the quests will be repeadtble on some of them with extra rewards. You never know maybe be a new thing all togeather hopefully whatever they do will be tastefully done to where its not just handing it to you saying here is your title now go be gwmaa you little slugger you.

Heloniar · Oct 03, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

actually, I believe Gwamm offers a benefit in GW2 since it also activates that big honking beacon statue above the Honor monument.

nvmu · Oct 03, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heloniar

actually, I believe Gwamm offers a benefit in GW2 since it also activates that big honking beacon statue above the Honor monument.

[Dev Update] Upcoming Changes to the Hall of Monuments - 24 June 2008

Account-based Accomplishments

Because the Hall of Monuments displays accomplishments on a character-by-character basis, many players have felt strongly discouraged from playing multiple characters. To allow greater freedom in play style, we are changing the design for the Hall of Monuments. Accomplishments will be transferred to Guild Wars 2 on an account-by-account basis, and players will have the option of displaying their accomplishments by account or by character in the Hall of Monuments. (Please note that the armor statues in the Monument to Resilience will reflect the appearance of the character currently in the Hall of Monuments, not the character that originally displayed that armor set.)

Heloniar · Oct 03, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nvmu

[Dev Update] Upcoming Changes to the Hall of Monuments - 24 June 2008

Account-based Accomplishments

Because the Hall of Monuments displays accomplishments on a character-by-character basis, many players have felt strongly discouraged from playing multiple characters. To allow greater freedom in play style, we are changing the design for the Hall of Monuments. Accomplishments will be transferred to Guild Wars 2 on an account-by-account basis, and players will have the option of displaying their accomplishments by account or by character in the Hall of Monuments. (Please note that the armor statues in the Monument to Resilience will reflect the appearance of the character currently in the Hall of Monuments, not the character that originally displayed that armor set.)

that still doesn't explain the beacon

you have to have gwamm on one of your characters to get that big light up in account wide hom, which leads me to believe that it's the trophy for GWAMM thus, it has a benefit in gw2. Hence, it still discourages multiple characters which goes agains that dev note.

I believe that all titles will go accountwide based on that alone. ( not really relying on that though)

nvmu · Oct 03, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heloniar

I believe that all titles will go accountwide based on that alone. ( not really relying on that though)

players will have the option of displaying their accomplishments by account or by character in the Hall of Monuments.
whcih means benifits will transfer over account wide, however titles will stay they way they are, atleast thats how i interpret that, but i guess we will c when they do in however many months it'll be
i ahve been waiting since they first announced it for these changes to come out, but they just keep getting pushed back

zwei2stein · Oct 03, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaris

wisdom/th/party/sweet/drunkard =5
guardian+prot=7(easy missions that take 2-3min to finish)
159points on all 4 eotn titles=4 (4 filled books saved)
master of the north =1 (kilroy hm)
elite skill hunter = 4 (tomes ftw)
9999k at luxon and kurzick = 2 (10k waiting to be donated)
sunspear+ lb at 49k= 2
total in 15mins = 25

I hate you, you are smart.

also: one vanquish takes exactly 1 minute and nets you instasnt two titles.
and you can keep easily accessible spot unexplored so you can get all 3+1 explorer in one minute.
and open one chest and get both chestrunner and lucky OR unlucky at same time, and you can get other one really fast too if you are lucky with next chest or two.
you can also get final point of north title by lots of quick means (easily accessible unexplored slot, great destroyer mission in hm ...)

i think i was underestimating, you can reach 30 titles in 15 minutes it seems

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Sane agruments.

Thank you.

However, this requires one question and answer:

Why would you want seccond GWAMM?

Kook~NBK~ · Oct 03, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaris

wisdom/th/party/sweet/drunkard =5
guardian+prot=7(easy missions that take 2-3min to finish)
159points on all 4 eotn titles=4 (4 filled books saved)
master of the north =1 (kilroy hm)
elite skill hunter = 4 (tomes ftw)
9999k at luxon and kurzick = 2 (10k waiting to be donated)
sunspear+ lb at 49k= 2
total in 15mins = 25

And none of the work a player does to get to those points (9,999 minutes drunk, 159k points per Rep title, etc) count? Sure, you can FINISH them quickly, but to go from start to finish on any title will take longer than 15 minutes.

zwei2stein · Oct 03, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

And none of the work a player does to get to those points (9,999 minutes drunk, 159k points per Rep title, etc) count? Sure, you can FINISH them quickly, but to go from start to finish on any title will take longer than 15 minutes.

But what is difference between this "preparation" and between "preparation" on other character in case of account-wide titles?

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

A-net have woken up, looked back on their 'design brief' if you will, and see where they have gone wrong. Therefore, adjusting is being made.
Its not fixing something that isnt broken. It's improving something that isnt perfect.

Basically a summarization of my entire argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

So therefore you basically advocate a change to the core principal of the title track 3 years after it's implementation to the complete opposite of what it originally stood for.

I agree 100% that adjusting is needed, the reputation grind is tiresome, the allegiance grind is ridiculous, but a complete change to the opposite of it's concept? nope don't agree with that at all

The entire title system hass been changed before, it came with HM. Don't forget that. But that was changing of achievement titles, it's grind titles' turn.

And grind is not what Guild Wars, or titles, originally meant. When titles first came out, none were grind. (except Kurzick/Luxon) Grind titles have just been added over time.

And Pwny Ride already stated how removing/reducing grind is not the opposite of what titles stand for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipknotOFA

I dont think they are going to mess with the faction count on Kurzick and Luxon QQ. I think they are going to add something to make it easier to get faction ... Maybe the quests will be repeadtble on some of them with extra rewards. You never know maybe be a new thing all togeather hopefully whatever they do will be tastefully done to where its not just handing it to you saying here is your title now go be gwmaa you little slugger you.

I am hoping that they add more ways to get Kurzick/Luxon faction, but I honestly cannot think of any ways other then adding faction rewards to the Missions (Arborstone and Seabed give you 250 first time per character, add some to Eternal Grove, Ghayla Hatchery, Urgoz and the Deep). Only other thing I can see happening with K/L is increased Faction holding (instead of 10k, it raises per rank) and higher rewards in Challenge Missions, Arborstone/Seabed, FA, JQ, and AB.

Also, It's gwaam, not gwmaa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heloniar

that still doesn't explain the beacon

you have to have gwamm on one of your characters to get that big light up in account wide hom, which leads me to believe that it's the trophy for GWAMM thus, it has a benefit in gw2. Hence, it still discourages multiple characters which goes agains that dev note.

I believe that all titles will go accountwide based on that alone. ( not really relying on that though)

It encouraged multiple play, but titles only on one character. If the titles go account based (And once again, achievement titles should not, and hopefully will not, go account based), then it will encourage multiple character play even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Why would you want seccond GWAMM?

-Joins a new guild and shows off GWAMM- -Gets "nice" from guildies- -switches characters to another one with GWAMM- -Get's "WTF!?!? DAMN MAN!"-

You get the point (if you don't, larger e-peens, something not needed)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But what is difference between this "preparation" and between "preparation" on other character in case of account-wide titles?

There is none, it's still time taken to go to the GWAAM title, however, there are currently only 10 account based titles, and the most happening to become account based post-november update will be an additional 11, that's 21. There is still much more time from making a character to getting GWAMM then 15 minutes (if all grind titles become account based, you can get 25 within 15 minutes via tomes, but nothing more, of course that is from character creation to 15 minutes later).

Kook~NBK~ · Oct 03, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But what is difference between this "preparation" and between "preparation" on other character in case of account-wide titles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Because you have to count in work you already did too. DUH.

So which is it, work, or preparation? No matter what you call it, you cannot achieve Protector of Tyria without doing THK Mission & bonus, you can't achieve tresaure hunter without opening 10,000 chests, and you can't achieve Legendary Vaquisher without Vanquishing Joko's Domain.

zwei2stein · Oct 03, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

So which is it, work, or preparation? No matter what you call it, you cannot achieve Protector of Tyria without doing THK Mission & bonus, you can't achieve tresaure hunter without opening 10,000 chests, and you can't achieve Legendary Vaquisher without Vanquishing Joko's Domain.

Exactly. Why would it then matter when (= before of after character creation) I do this stuff, as long as I do it?

BrettM · Oct 03, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

However, this requires one question and answer:

Why would you want seccond GWAMM?

Don't ask me. I'm not even sure I want the first one.

I've only been playing this game for about 6 months and I still have a lot of regular questing and missioning ahead of me before title chasing is the only thing left to do. I have maxed 2 protector and 2 cartographer titles on one of my characters, just because I enjoy it. Doing protector/guardian on the other characters will be a fun challenge because of the different professions, but doing cartography again would just be a grind with nothing new to see, so I have no present intentions of trying.