Curse

Chthon · Aug 23, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That would be me.
"The wall" is beyond overpowered with the moronic monster AI.

You've got it backwards. Minions aren't overpowered; the monsters are overdumb. The value of minions lies largely in the fact that monsters will waste resources attacking them. As PvP shows, minions are a downright inferior strategy once you start facing foes that understand the concepts of "minion" and "master." If you've got an objection to the effectiveness of MM's (which already took a HUGE hit recently with the nerf to Order of Undeath), then the answer to your problem lies in smarter monsters, not weaker minions.

Nightow · Aug 23, 2008, 02:47 AM // 02:47

"Fixed a bug that caused Heroes to cancel some skills before they finished casting when following their leader. "

<3 TYTYTYTYTYTY!
Gonna test this out after an UW run I'm in with our alliance.

vandevere · Aug 23, 2008, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Does that mean I can start taking my gang of misfits out again?

R.Shayne · Aug 23, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Just finished a Bogroot HM with 2 guilde and 5 heroes + me and the heroes worked much better. Thanks now explain to me again why I can't take seven heroes?

Jae Onasi · Aug 23, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Played around in Asuran territory tonight. Monks now cast res skills outside combat. Olias used blood of the master when not in combat. I forgot to check on the ele heroes to see if they were maintaining enchantments. Heroes generally obeyed the flags, but I only had Olias and Ogden and not any melee heroes so I can't say for sure how it works with others.
Thanks for fixing the problems so fast!

free_fall · Aug 23, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Ya, Olias seems to fixed now. Yay!

Don't use Death Nova or Jagged Bones, so don't know about that - if it's an issue, Anet should get it back up to speed as quickily as they fixed this other thing.

Way to go, Anet!

Smurf Minions · Aug 23, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I've tried a mission with heros/hench yesterday and the heroes were JUST out of agro range of a boss, and they dont attack if call/attack anything.. This was never the case and if i flagged them closer they went to attack. It was annoying as hell.

upier · Aug 23, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You've got it backwards. Minions aren't overpowered; the monsters are overdumb. The value of minions lies largely in the fact that monsters will waste resources attacking them. As PvP shows, minions are a downright inferior strategy once you start facing foes that understand the concepts of "minion" and "master." If you've got an objection to the effectiveness of MM's (which already took a HUGE hit recently with the nerf to Order of Undeath), then the answer to your problem lies in smarter monsters, not weaker minions.

Well there are two issues:
1. minions require a corpse which should slow them down. Spirits require no corpse - so they have the attributes that they have.
In PvE there is no lack of corpses.
2. SR. If you lack corpses - SR doesn't trigger.
Infinite energy in PvE.
Those flaws break minions regardless of what gives them their god-status.

But other then that - yes.
Monsters are too dumb for minions. That's why they work so superbly.
So yeah - they should fix the AI.
Until then - I see no reason for minions exploiting the stupidity. Nerf them now - because like you said, they cash in on the stupidity - and buff them later once we see the changes to the AI.
And if we don't see the changes to the AI - at least we solved the problem which is god-like status of a MM.
I mean if you aren't going to fix the symptoms - it would be nice to at least have a bandage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

Nice to see you live in a small world then. You might as well say get rid of Nukers because they do AoE damage and because there so overpowered by doing so. Since you did not counter my argument and just came off with the typical "your wrong," answer then that makes me right. In addition, to the other points of my argument: do monster within GW have an automatic de-gen of health? Do the minions come with any prior skill (like any healing or damage abilities) set/bar except for what the MM puts on them? The answer should be no of course.

Oki I didn't want to bother but ...
1. Monsters do not have inherently "unlimited energy cap".
2. If you feel that SR was "nerfed into the ground" you are simply bad. SR is one of the most overpowered concepts in GW PvE.

Which, like I said - makes you wrong.

And like I said - the fact that monsters run around with super-duper buffed up skills which combined with what C said (and what I was referring to - but I figured I didn't have to say it because it's pretty darn obvious) - that minions will soak up the damage that would be otherwise thrown at your party - that makes minions super duper sweet.

On-topic:
Sounds sweet!
Will need to take Oli for a spin again!

mr_stealth · Aug 23, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Their combat range seems to be better now, but they still get lazy when not within aggro/casting range of an enemy. A hero monk flagged just outside of my aggro bubble stood around and let me die in a mission, and was't even casting on other party members that were closer to him. Melee heroes are still a little afraid to run ahead to a called target farther than the very edge of aggro range. This isn't really a new bug, but the recent AI changes have been effecting it.

None of the buggy behavior seems to be consistent during an actual fight. Using the conitions area in Isle of the Nameless, a hero monk (set to avoid) is willing to heal for approx 1.5x aggro range. Flagging just beyond that will result in the hero running up, breaking several casts, returning to flag, and then repeating this cycle till they hit 0 energy. Changing the hero to guard/fight causes same behavior, but with longer range. The range of the monk hero that let me die in Hell's Precipice was certainly much less than 1.5x his avoid settings should have. If the heroes are going to have a max range they are willing to cast from, it needs to be consistent.

MagicalHobo · Aug 23, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Devona seemed better for me last night, she didn't run off and try to Rambo any mobs. But, I also noticed while fighting Charr that my H/H MOVED out of AoE things like Fire Storm. Has anyone else seen this or am I going crazy? :P

Kook~NBK~ · Aug 23, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicalHobo

Devona seemed better for me last night, she didn't run off and try to Rambo any mobs. But, I also noticed while fighting Charr that my H/H MOVED out of AoE things like Fire Storm. Has anyone else seen this or am I going crazy? :P

Enemy Fire Storm or ally Fire Storm?

mr_stealth · Aug 23, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicalHobo

I also noticed while fighting Charr that my H/H MOVED out of AoE things like Fire Storm. Has anyone else seen this or am I going crazy? :P

You're not crazy. The H/H response to moving out of AoE damage is quicker. Mine were running out of a firestorm after 1-2 pulses instead of just standing there for 5-6 and losing 1/2 of their health. They did run around for a couple seconds trying to search out a safe spot rather than just running straight out, but its MUCH better than previous behavior.

I think the real test of this will be mind freeze/maelstrom from ice imps. To the Shiverpeaks I go!

Edit: quick test on snare+AoE
Old reponse was to run out of AoE(or around within the AoE), then right back into it, rinse, repeat. They were basically useless being stuck between "I need to run away" and "I want to stand in *that* spot."

Now they will actually move out of the AoE, even while snared, and stay out of it. This has to be one of the best changes to H/H AI. Having to flag them out of everything was annoying, especially when they like to ignore the flags and bunch up in one spot to cast.

Nightow · Aug 23, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

...Alright, now I'm really getting po'ed about this. How many updates has it been to heroes and THEY STILL CAN'T CAST A DAMNED SIGNET UNLESS THEY'RE FIVE FEET AWAY FROM ME?

/rant

mr_stealth · Aug 23, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

...Alright, now I'm really getting po'ed about this. How many updates has it been to heroes and THEY STILL CAN'T CAST A DAMNED SIGNET UNLESS THEY'RE FIVE FEET AWAY FROM ME?

/rant

Its not just signets, but I think its worse with them and spells with 1 second+ cast times. I can get mine to cast a signet as long as I'm closer than 1.5x aggro range when the hero is told to cast it. However, if I am farther away, the hero will approach and start breaking casts over and over. They continue breaking casts if I move closer, and will ignore any flagging untill they finally finish the cast or I uncheck the skill. For skills with under 1 second casting times, they seem to break the cast a couple times but will complete it without wasting all of their energy. I haven't seen Tahlkora break a 1/4 second cast more than once before successfully casting the spell.

Nightow · Aug 23, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

Its not just signets, but I think its worse with them and spells with 1 second+ cast times. I can get mine to cast a signet as long as I'm closer than 1.5x aggro range when the hero is told to cast it. However, if I am farther away, the hero will approach and start breaking casts over and over. They continue breaking casts if I move closer, and will ignore any flagging untill they finally finish the cast or I uncheck the skill. For skills with under 1 second casting times, they seem to break the cast a couple times but will complete it without wasting all of their energy. I haven't seen Tahlkora break a 1/4 second cast more than once before successfully casting the spell.

Well, that's weird because Ogden has no problem casting [spell breaker] on me, even if he's at the edge of my aggro range. It's just so damned hard to get him to cast a signet that's getting frustrating for me.

mr_stealth · Aug 23, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Well, that's weird because Ogden has no problem casting [spell breaker] on me, even if he's at the edge of my aggro range. It's just so damned hard to get him to cast a signet that's getting frustrating for me.

I haven't been able to consistently create a situation where he will break any cast at the edge of my aggro bubble. In any relatively controlled test, they won't break casts unless the skill was initiated(whether forced or by their own choice) with the hero being beyond 1.5x aggro range. When this happens, the only way to complete the cast is to cancel the skill, reflag the hero or move myself, then tell the hero to use the skill.

Don't mistake this as me trying to discredit what you are saying, because I know it does happen. I've seen an unflagged hero repeatedly fail casts, or alternate between 2 skills, with the target being well inside the aggro bubble. I just can't find a way to recreate the bug outside of normal combat.

Nightow · Aug 23, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

I haven't been able to consistently create a situation where he will break any cast at the edge of my aggro bubble. In any relatively controlled test, they won't break casts unless the skill was initiated(whether forced or by their own choice) with the hero being beyond 1.5x aggro range. When this happens, the only way to complete the cast is to cancel the skill, reflag the hero or move myself, then tell the hero to use the skill.

Don't mistake this as me trying to discredit what you are saying, because I know it does happen. I've seen an unflagged hero repeatedly fail casts, or alternate between 2 skills, with the target being well inside the aggro bubble. I just can't find a way to recreate the bug outside of normal combat.

Nah, I understand. When I talk about failed casts, this is just from me running 600/smite for vanquishes/Gate O' Kryta runs/CoF runs/Etc.

In no way do I have the patience to test everything out, I leave that to Anet If they even test anymore. :S

MagicalHobo · Aug 23, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Enemy Fire Storm or ally Fire Storm?

Enemy Fire Storm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

You're not crazy. The H/H response to moving out of AoE damage is quicker. Mine were running out of a firestorm after 1-2 pulses instead of just standing there for 5-6 and losing 1/2 of their health. They did run around for a couple seconds trying to search out a safe spot rather than just running straight out, but its MUCH better than previous behavior.

I think the real test of this will be mind freeze/maelstrom from ice imps. To the Shiverpeaks I go!

Edit: quick test on snare+AoE
Old reponse was to run out of AoE(or around within the AoE), then right back into it, rinse, repeat. They were basically useless being stuck between "I need to run away" and "I want to stand in *that* spot."

Now they will actually move out of the AoE, even while snared, and stay out of it. This has to be one of the best changes to H/H AI. Having to flag them out of everything was annoying, especially when they like to ignore the flags and bunch up in one spot to cast.

Rock on! Makes things much easier now, especially in Charr-land.

Draikin · Aug 23, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

Old reponse was to run out of AoE(or around within the AoE), then right back into it, rinse, repeat. They were basically useless being stuck between "I need to run away" and "I want to stand in *that* spot."

Now they will actually move out of the AoE, even while snared, and stay out of it.

That's interesting because it would confirm what I'm seeing in HB: heroes seem to move farther away from their flag when kiting from their opponents. Before the August 7 update, setting them to "Defend" almost always prevented them from running outside of the shrine range while kiting. After the update, they seem to walk out of shrine range far more easily. That would explain why they're not constantly running back into an AoE attack like they were before. Last time I asked QA they specifically said they would not be improving the speed and accuracy in which heroes avoid AoE attacks, so I doubt they changed that aspect of the AI.

sindex · Aug 24, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

This Argument can be skipped if you feel like the whole MM being overpowered is pointless to discuss (you have been forewarned). Thank you Mods for letting me to express my opinion for the last time on this particular topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oki I didn't want to bother but ...
1. Monsters do not have inherently "unlimited energy cap".
2. If you feel that SR was "nerfed into the ground" you are simply bad. SR is one of the most overpowered concepts in GW PvE.

Which, like I said - makes you wrong.

And like I said - the fact that monsters run around with super-duper buffed up skills which combined with what C said (and what I was referring to - but I figured I didn't have to say it because it's pretty darn obvious) - that minions will soak up the damage that would be otherwise thrown at your party - that makes minions super duper sweet.

1. No, you don’t know if monsters do not have unlimited energy cap and maybe I was over exaggerate the issue by stating that they do. In fact, we do know certain monsters have already a health re-gen ability that’s not tied into the skills they are using during combat. However, we don’t know if certain monsters have a higher tier of a energy re-gen ability/pool because we can’t see their energy bar. Nevertheless, certain monsters that have exhaustion spell(s) can keep spamming that same spell (sometimes high-energy cost) for hours on end. This probably means they have some way to counter produce the exhaustion, or have some type of high-end level of energy. For instance, there was a thread around here that showed that a lightning drake was spamming Mind Shock (exhaustion spell) and Lighting Orb even though they should have no energy left.

The monster AI in Guild Wars is not like the Ninja Gaiden killer AI, but they do cheat to make up the difference. As I have stated before they are higher levels of normal PC players (level 30 monster vs. level 18 minion), which mean superior health, attribute levels, armor, and even energy. Finally, certain monster skills can slice through minions (e.g. Spectral Agony to Impossible Odds), which makes the allied party still vulnerable to attack since these skills recharge pretty fast.

2. Let me say first of all that SR is not completely unusable in it’s current state. In fact, as SR was taking a hit after hit in the nerf department, I promoted the idea that people should take Signet of Lost Souls as a new energy management skill. It still works even today. Second you did not counter the argument again you simply said SR “was overpowered” before the nerf. I can agree with the fact it was overpowered to the state it was in before the first nerf. This makes you wonder why A-net did not touch it until 2 years latter. However you’re talking about it in past tense (using words like “was”) and not it’s current state of ability.

3. Let’s talk about your supposed “wall of death” which you said gives the MM an obvious "god like" ability. True minions do take away damage (initial damage) from the other party members, which makes it effective not "god like." Since it seems you have put minions in the same category of a Warrior/Tank it’s the perfect comparison of what you’re trying present that makes minions so effective.

A one man/woman Tank whether it’s a hero or the PC (because a henchman tank is just silly) can take so much damage because it is meant to do so. Of course a MM cannot steps out into the explore-able area, to which he/she can initially tank or even create a minion(s) out there (not unless there are corpses around). However, the tank can initially go out there and do what it does best: “Tank.” Okay let’s say now we have 10 minions versus the one tank, which is more effective in deducting damage? Well certainly in low-end areas the minion master kind of rules in this situation, but so can the tank given a certain amount of time. However, high-end areas like even in the Ring of Fire Island Chain (DoA, don’t make me laugh) it is not viable to bring a MM.

Now let us look at the minion(s) problem. They can take Holy Damage (doubles damage against undead), suffers from some conditions, takes AoE spells (which minions will not run away from at times), and can be damaged in general from hex spells to melee weapons. They even have skills specifically made for crippling and killing the MM/Minions ability; like Verata's Aura, Verata's Gaze, or even Unnatural Signet. If the MM dies in the heat of battle the minion(s) can turn on it’s allied party members. Finally they have an automatic build up of a 10 health de-gen (not immortal) and they usually have a low level cap at 18 (unless it’s 1 Flesh Golem or consumables to raise the attribute level).

As for the tank, he/she does have to deal with some of the problem I have stated from above, but with many differences. Holy Damage does seem to cut through a tank armor but it does not do double damage to that particular tank. AoE spells can initially hit the tank but the tank has the ability to move out of the way. The tank can take conditions and even hexes, which can cripple it. However, if for example there is a monk standing by, they can take off those problems with certain skills. If the tank dies then it’s dead and does not come back to life to strangle it’s party of allies to death. Finally the tank does not have an automatic de-gen ability (unless he/she is caring a vamp weapon) and can customize itself even though it’s stays at level 20.

Taken from the Official Guild Wars Wiki:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minion A.I.

- Although minions will attack foes in their Danger Zone, they will not attack ones outside this range unless their master attacks a target. Spells will not count as attacks in this regard.
-Minions do not follow target calls.
-Minions do not flee from AoE damage.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior/Tank

A Warrior with high armor and defensive stances. The first kind of tank introduced in the game and still one of the most popular in game, the warriors have the benefit of an unconditional strong defense provided by their armor, as well as being the only profession in the game with access to a Rune of Absorption. Their stances can also be hard to remove, as few PvE enemies have stance-removing skills. Like a big block of meat standing in the front line to bear the brunt of the damage, they are often called meat shields. Their weakness, elemental damage, which is usually dealt through spells, is usually countered with spell-counters such as Obsidian Flesh. In high-level areas with appropriate environment (such as The Deep), sometimes several warriors are coordinated to build a wall between enemies and their party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necro/MM/Tank

A Necromancer with a vast army of minions who specialize in melee attacks. Here the necromancer himself does not tank – rather, he creates a large number of minions that act as meatshields for the party, hopefully being picked as targets by the enemies. This method often is not considered real tanking – while the minions do sometimes draw the enemies' attention and they have the ability to body block enemy melee attackers, they may not be controlled by the necromancer, so many of the hardest parts of tanking are impossible with them.

(Sarcasm) “OMG the tank is overpowered” (/End Sarcasm). In my personal opinion though you seem to have a “tunnel vision” about all the positive aspect(s) of the MM but none of it’s faults (which makes it look “god like” to you). I will say the MM is effective in it’s current state, but saying it’s “godly” is an overstatement of it’s ability. If a MM had no minion cap or even if it was had the abilities what this Monster Boss MM can do then I would agree with you. I don’t mean to insult you, but if that’s what you want to believe then so be it.

Anyways I am stopping this pointless argument because I know I can go on forever (I think the Mods know it too). Moreover, I believe that we have de-railed this thread long enough already. However, thank you Mods for letting me get my point across.

--------------------------------------------End of Argument -------------------------------------

Yeah, there still seems to be some problems with the AI by doing a few things they did not normally do before the update. For instance, Masters does heal his minions but he now lags behind while he does it; so it’s more overly frequent then occasionally now.