Curse

Jenn · Oct 17, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeDVD

What was originally being said was that there was no built in function to recreate mouse controls with the G15. The G15, however, comes with software that makes this possible. But it's a separate program, unlike the code in the driver that enables the macro learning buttons on the keyboard itself. That's not a material difference though, so saying the G15 doesn't come with the ability to control mouse commands is just plain wrong. Whether those commands are macros or scripts seems kind of pointless to me.

Oh, interesting. Thanks for the information!

Quote:

Since I also have a G15 keyboard, I too would like to know if the macro/script the OP created is against the rules or not. Until now, the standard was thought to be that as long as you still had to be at the keyboard for everything to work, you were ok. This ban seems to say that this is not the case.

I too (as someone else stated) have a macro on my G15 that combines the ; space keyboard presses to make picking up drops easier when I'm killing stuff in the game. Am I going to get in trouble if I use this macro during the next special event with present drops?

I had the same impression as you... I thought what was illegal was an "afk-process."
On your 2nd point, though, I think it would be good to get clarification. G15 keyboards seem to open up a lot of possibilities, and I think because they can be bought in stores, people seem to think that all their functions are acceptable by gaming corporations.

Amy Awien · Oct 17, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

http://www.guildwars.com/support/legal/default.php

You can read that without ever buying the game. The information's readily available to you if you know where to look.

In no way does the existence of an online document bypass the requirements that (a) any agreement should be presented on paper before the sale and (b) any agreement should be presented in my native language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You are missing a crucial point. Every time when you launch the game you use the resources on ANet's servers. You are using their property at ANet's sole discretion. ANet can deny your use of their property for any reason or for no reason whatsoever and they have that right regardless of any EULA. Their property, their rules.

No, you are missing the crucial point that we have already paid them to provide that service. We've paid, they're expected to provide the service. It's not something they give to us out of kindness, the access to their game servers is something we are entitled to, using that property is our right. It is not in their sole discretion to discontinue the service and should they stop the service, they would in fact violate the law.

Shasgaliel · Oct 17, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In no way does the existence of an online document bypass the requirements that (a) any agreement should be presented on paper before the sale and (b) any agreement should be presented in my native language..

So every time you buy a vegetable or cookie you get a paper signed agreement? WTF? I am sure there is a looooooong list of exceptions to this rule.

Your other arguments about the general idea of law applicability I will support:

In principle if you want to sue them you will need to do this in US where Anet is based probably even in the specific state. If they wanted to sue you then they would need to go to your country and use your language. The exceptions of the rule are where a judge in a given country accepts the case without it being transferred to a place where the sued side of the agreement is registered.

I am working in an international company selling as well "digital products" (domain names) we had numerous cases where we sued or have been sued. In on all the cases where we were the sued party the case even if initiated abroad had to be moved to our country of registration and in front of our local court. Since our agreements and EULAs etc were based on our local law we won all the cases easily. On the other hand we sued some of the "clients" in our local court and judges accepted some of those cases (which means that again our local law was the one applied). However a few times our initiated case was transferred to the judge in a foreign country which made some of our rules which we applied useless (the ones contradicting local laws) etc and made it hard to win the case.

So even if you have local rights which do not support the idea of digital EULA:

1. If they revoke your account to get it back you will rather need to sue them in the place they are registered and apply laws applicable there unless your local judge decides otherwise which is an exception to the general principle.
2. They do not need to sue you to get your account revoked, they do not even have to provide the reason (their Terms and Conditions).

So even if I agree with the fact that that your local rights might be probably applicable in your case I have to say that I do not give them any chance of being successfully executed while on the other hand Anet can easily execute theirs.

Last remark. If the agreement Anet offers to their customers was illegal in your country it will be not possible for them to sell anything in the local stores. In my GW box I had "agreement" and a set of rules included. EULA online was just a repetition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, you are missing the crucial point that we have already paid them to provide that service. We've paid, they're expected to provide the service. It's not something they give to us out of kindness, the access to their game servers is something we are entitled to, using that property is our right. It is not in their sole discretion to discontinue the service and should they stop the service, they would in fact violate the law.

Are you sure you paid them to provide an infinite service which they cannot terminate? I think under some of the circumstances they can safely just stop their service (boting etc) at least according to their agreement. Interesting thing is if the person who gets banned actually does not have a right to financial compensation. Since initiating the case would cost more (mostly time and effort) than GW account is worth I guess nobody will bother suing them for that.

Darkobra · Oct 17, 2008, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In no way does the existence of an online document bypass the requirements that (a) any agreement should be presented on paper before the sale and (b) any agreement should be presented in my native language.

No, you are missing the crucial point that we have already paid them to provide that service. We've paid, they're expected to provide the service. It's not something they give to us out of kindness, the access to their game servers is something we are entitled to, using that property is our right. It is not in their sole discretion to discontinue the service and should they stop the service, they would in fact violate the law.

Thousands of court cases state otherwise. Remember the Texas vs Microsoft lawsuit? Or more importantly, what happened to Jack Thompson?

Amy Awien · Oct 17, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

So every time you buy a vegetable or cookie you get a paper signed agreement? WTF? I am sure there is a looooooong list of exceptions to this rule.

You don't need paper when normal rules apply, and similarly when there's no paper to define special rules of an agreement the normal rules apply. If I buy a fridge and it breaks down (within some time from purchase), it's repaired or replaced.

Quote:

In principle if you want to sue them you will need to do this in US where Anet is based probably even in the specific state.

No, not normally, if there is a problem with the product, I turn to the dealer that sold the product. They'll have to sort it out, or if the product is 'beyond repair' get me either a replacement or refund the money.

They sell their product in my country through some legal representative for my country who can be held accountable. Ultimately it is about our local (consumer) laws and how they apply to that local representative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Thousands of court cases state otherwise. Remember the Texas vs Microsoft lawsuit? Or more importantly, what happened to Jack Thompson?

Thousands? You're making up numbers, even in the US there haven't been thousands of cases (probably not even hundreds or even dozens) and those that were are largely irrelevant to me, since I don't live in the US. What case is that btw (plain interest)?

Amy Awien · Oct 17, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Lol, Jack Thompson was after MS for 'facilitating video game addiction'. How is it related to this issue?

Darkobra · Oct 17, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Actually, Jack Thompson was trying to make a link between serial killers and games. He had a habit of making rules up on the spot, too.

The Texas vs Microsoft lawsuit was that the XBox live servers were down for a weekend. To redeem this mistake, they offered a free game. That wasn't enough for a couple of teenagers, who wanted to sue Microsoft for $5 million, on the grounds of "Misrepresentation", which is also similar to what you're trying to prove.

Shasgaliel · Oct 17, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, not normally, if there is a problem with the product, I turn to the dealer that sold the product. They'll have to sort it out, or if the product is 'beyond repair' get me either a replacement or refund the money.

They sell their product in my country through some legal representative for my country who can be held accountable. Ultimately it is about our local (consumer) laws and how they apply to that local representative.

That makes sense. I did not think about this and now when I read this it is plain obvious.

In this case they will be even less accountable since they will have an agreement with the dealer and the dealer with you. I can bet they have a "limitation of liability" clause forcing all their dealers to keep Anet unaccountable for all dealers selling activity. So in fact it will be the sued dealer who in turn will have to sue them in the end in case there will be any legal problems with their product in some of the countries.

There was a saying about Microsoft that it is not a company selling software but a company selling licenses to use software. I think it applies here as well, at least partially.

@OP I am afraid there will be never a general rule which could be applied. They will do their judgments on the case by case basis which are far from being consistent. I would not be surprised if one day they suddenly ban the guy who posted door exploit for beating Mallyx or the one who published in Wiki wall warping glitch for dunes of despair bonus.

english storm · Oct 17, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

You really underestimate the ability of some people to grind. When I was doing HFFF, I set the period (.) key to "Target: Next." Upon entering town, I would hit it twice. No matter where you load in Lutgardis, that will target the Melandru's Hope sign. Not to mention, it shaves off at least a few seconds because I can register those actions before I'm even completely loaded. Once I got there, or relatively close, I would turn my camera and press R.

I have my hero flags keyed to F5-8. That way I don't have to drag them from the radar to my Mission Map, I can just hover my mouse over the spot they need to be placed, and it's almost instantaneous. Once you get that part down, it goes really quickly. And then I have on my number pad something like this:

123: Hero 1 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill
456: Hero 2 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill
789: Hero 3 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill

Doing that entire process shaves off about 30 seconds each run - so don't call people lazy. You should be at least recognizing their effort to maximize their time spent doing this. If you would rather take that much longer doing a Faction title, you're the one who deserves to be laughed at

.

--------------------------------

Actually, technicalities of language aside, I believe the person you were arguing with is correct. The basic premise of your screenshot is that it's a "click-and-drag" dummie version of what really is a script.

In AutoIt, all that would have to be typed is:

Code:

click 342,343
sleep 1000
click 432, 324
MouseDrag blahblah

In essence, the G15 "built in mouse function" is a script-generator for people who don't have the know-how to type out the whole thing. To my understanding, that would mean you could generate an entire afk-process with the G15 keyboard... at least for the duration of one run.

A comparable example would be website designing. Any person can open up a program like Dreamweaver or Microsoft FrontPage and build a website using drawing tools, paint cans and other functions that just look like you're using MS Word. You're still generating a website, but what actually powers it, the CODE that creates it... it doesn't need to be known. Instead it's automatically generated.

So someone who selects the text and clicks a blue paintcan is telling the program like Dreamweaver to actually write this:

Code:

<font color="blue">This is blue text</font>

Just because you can't see the code or script being generated does not mean that it isn't there.

I agree in part, there is a code in the background that is always there. It doesn't matter if it's a macro captured using just the keyboard or a macro produced using the UI or writing one yourself in a text document. The code is always there, as that is what the keyboard uses to store the macro for further use. It's a different language to the script language so i would have to say it's not a script, which was the point i was trying to get across.

Quote:

The basic premise of your screenshot is that it's a "click-and-drag" dummie version of what really is a script.

I disagree, for starters the mouse move event never made it into the UI, you have to write it yourself. Secondly again, the code language used is exactly the same for a macro captured using the keyboard and one that you write yourself without using any logitech software. They are all event types, it doesn't matter if it's "keyup", "keydown", "delay", "mouseup" or "mousedown" hence the reason i said it's a built in function of the keyboard (drivers).

Musei Karasu · Oct 17, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Actually, technicalities of language aside, I believe the person you were arguing with is correct. The basic premise of your screenshot is that it's a "click-and-drag" dummie version of what really is a script.

In AutoIt, all that would have to be typed is:

Code:

click 342,343
sleep 1000
click 432, 324
MouseDrag blahblah

In essence, the G15 "built in mouse function" is a script-generator for people who don't have the know-how to type out the whole thing. To my understanding, that would mean you could generate an entire afk-process with the G15 keyboard... at least for the duration of one run.

A comparable example would be website designing. Any person can open up a program like Dreamweaver or Microsoft FrontPage and build a website using drawing tools, paint cans and other functions that just look like you're using MS Word. You're still generating a website, but what actually powers it, the CODE that creates it... it doesn't need to be known. Instead it's automatically generated.

So someone who selects the text and clicks a blue paintcan is telling the program like Dreamweaver to actually write this:

Code:

<font color="blue">This is blue text</font>

Just because you can't see the code or script being generated does not mean that it isn't there.

Using that logic, everything you do on a computer is code. When you press the 'a' key on your keyboard it tells the computer 01000001. When you click to move in guildwars it still responds in code. It sends a collection of variables back to the server which then interprets it. It's all still code.

Shadowmoon · Oct 17, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I beleive your ban was probably caused by doin the quest over and over agian for 30 hours straight. Just admitting to using the g15 macro just sealed your fate.
A-net is not blizzard with warden. They don't deep scan your memory. They ban for bot-like activity, so it usually hits hard core title farmers. People who go on hard core streaks have been banned before, told that they showed bot like activity, then unbanned when they protested (usually saying that it the players fault for being wrongfully banned the first time, and any further bot-like activity will lead to perma ban). Unfortunately you cemented your ban by admiting to using a 3rd party program.
Generally GM don't know anything about the game, look at the last ban scare, over people tranfering money between accounts. GM does something stupid and short sighted, and the game community freak out. I doubt this one knew that macro function on the g15 was asked about multiple times, with multiple its ok responces.

-Sonata- · Oct 17, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In no way does the existence of an online document bypass the requirements that (a) any agreement should be presented on paper before the sale and (b) any agreement should be presented in my native language.

No, you are missing the crucial point that we have already paid them to provide that service. We've paid, they're expected to provide the service. It's not something they give to us out of kindness, the access to their game servers is something we are entitled to, using that property is our right. It is not in their sole discretion to discontinue the service and should they stop the service, they would in fact violate the law.

Amy, we haven't paid them to provide that service. The provision of service existed prior to the sale. We've purchased the proper tools (Code Keys) to access a service already being provided to the public.

To provide an old example I've used before; when you purchased GuildWars, or for that matter, any online game, all you've purchased is the right to access that service, much like purchasing the right to access HBO. HBO already exists. You are paying to access it.

When you purchase a subscription to HBO, all you have is the right to access the service as is. You do not have rights to anything else. You can't steal additional channels of theirs (GW-Relation: see hacking of accounts). You can't copy and sell their programming (GW-Relation: See Ebay trading of weapons and gold which can fall under copyrights and piracy). You can't give your cable information to your neighbor so he/she an watch HBO too (GW-Relation: See buying/selling and sharing of accounts). It is nothing more than a service and that service can be cut if GuildWars, or HBO chooses to cut it under the agreements.

GuildWars is no different in this than WoW, or WAR, or Flyff, or Runescape, or EQ, or Ultima. Even your ISP has a very similar service agreement. The part where they say they can terminate it if you're using their service for something they don't approve of as written in the service agreements.

It says right on the guildwars box; "Acceptance of certain agreements is required". This means before you bring that box to the cashier, unless you're a tl:dr 24/7, you know you're required to accept some sort of agreement of using the service you're about to buy. If you're so curious as to the exact wording of that agreement, the box also lists the website in which you can research that document (www.guildwars.com).

Knowing you'll be presented with agreements; the action of clicking "I agree" is the action of saying, "Yes, Anet has presented me with the service contract and what I'm allowed to do and what I am not allowed to do while using this service. I have read, or had the opportunity to read, but tl:dr so I skipped it!!...nonetheless agree to follow the rules to access this service."

You don't get refunds if the service terms are voided by the customer. You are, however, entitled if the physical tools to access the service are defective. Ie- You open the box and god know how the CD got snapped in half. The Code provided in the box, once entered upon registration, is invalid. There is no code in the box. The CD install files are incomplete, or corrupt. These are all errors in the tools to access the service from the provider and as such, the provider is responsible to replace, or refund the purchase of only those tools. To use HBO again; if my cable box, which they provide, to view HBO breaks, they can refund my purchase price, or replace it of equal value for free.

To OP:: If you've truly done nothing wrong to break the EULA, I wish you the best and hopefully a restored account. I, for one, hate to see truly innocent players get banned in a mix up, or false accusation.

Test Me · Oct 17, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

It's funny how all this turned into a "legal" discussion.

IMO if OP takes ANet to court, ANet does not stand a chance. Not only that but he may even get money out of them.

What people seem to not understand is that the OP was playing for 6 thousand hours during the last 3 years (as the OP). To ban an account like that is more or less equal to someone breaking into your house and stealing all your family photos and videos for the past 3 years.

ANet staff needs to realize that their game becomes a big part of some players' lives and they can't just decide to take that away whenever they feel like. I would dare say they can't do that ever, once they sold their product (game) it is not legal for them to "come to your house" and take it back (with no refunds as well).

Call me crazy but I find it very weird when a company is able to take away a product it sold you at any time with no excuse and without any refund. And as Amy is saying, this is obviously illegal.

Lycan Nibbler · Oct 17, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

It's funny how all this turned into a "legal" discussion.

IMO if OP takes ANet to court, ANet does not stand a chance. Not only that but he may even get money out of them.

What people seem to not understand is that the OP was playing for 6 thousand hours during the last 3 years (as the OP). To ban an account like that is more or less equal to someone breaking into your house and stealing all your family photos and videos for the past 3 years.

ANet staff needs to realize that their game becomes a big part of some players' lives and they can't just decide to take that away whenever they feel like. I would dare say they can't do that ever, once they sold their product (game) it is not legal for them to "come to your house" and take it back (with no refunds as well).

Call me crazy but I find it very weird when a company is able to take away a product it sold you at any time with no excuse and without any refund. And as Amy is saying, this is obviously illegal.

I think that any arguement using 6,000 hours and 3 years entertainment for approx $300 payment would probably fail on "reasonable expectations" grounds but... we are getting drawn away on several tangents on this thread.

One thing this thread has given me though, is the feeling to finally get the G15 I bought 4 months ago out of its box!

tmakinen · Oct 17, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

IMO if OP takes ANet to court, ANet does not stand a chance. Not only that but he may even get money out of them.

What people seem to not understand is that the OP was playing for 6 thousand hours during the last 3 years (as the OP). To ban an account like that is more or less equal to someone breaking into your house and stealing all your family photos and videos for the past 3 years.

That is an extremely poor piece of legal advice and your analog is topsy-turvy inaccurate. If anything, the fact that the OP has been provided 6000 hours of solid entertainment after paying an essentially one-time fee of about $200 and still feels entitled for more will get him laughed out of the court with prejudice.

You don't have to take my word on it, ask your lawyer and he'll enlighten you.

Marcus The Cube · Oct 17, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Edit: Yes, EULA's are legally binding, no matter what country you live in/language it is written in since thier terms are not unconcionable. Courts would apply California law since that is where a.net's primary place of buisness is (I assume it's also incorporated in Deleware).

Of course not. Any contract between a consumer and a business falls under the local jurisdiction of the consumer in Europe.
I have no idea if this contract clause can hold, as it's already not determined enough - anything on a computer is being enhanced and controlled by software, any keystroke or mouse move... As in the result this clause terminates the whole contract without refund I think that the chances that this clause is considered to be fair by a continental European court are very low.

-Sonata- · Oct 17, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

ANet staff needs to realize that their game becomes a big part of some players' lives and they can't just decide to take that away whenever they feel like. I would dare say they can't do that ever, once they sold their product (game) it is not legal for them to "come to your house" and take it back (with no refunds as well).

But here's the thing. They haven't sold you their game. They sold you the access rights to use their game. Guild Wars is not owned by the players. Guild Wars is owned by the creators, developers, and publisher. It's not an offline game. You're required to access a service to play Guild Wars and that service does not, under any circumstance, belong to the players. It's only the service that Guild Wars can deny you and it's within their right because they own that service. They are not asking and have never asked for the physical tools back.

If you bought a cell phone, you also purchase a service contract. If you break the service contract of your cell phone they don't come and take your cell phone away. They cut your service because that's what you paid for. It's the same deal here. You break the service agreement, they deny you the service. It's the same deal in WoW. Break the service agreement, they cut you off. Blizzard won't knock on your door and say, "We'd like your CD's please".

Quote:

Call me crazy but I find it very weird when a company is able to take away a product it sold you at any time with no excuse and without any refund. And as Amy is saying, this is obviously illegal.

And to state again, they have not taken your product. Players seem to believe that because you have some CD's in your hand that you're entitled to do what you want. This is not an offline game. GW is fully online and the schematics are different. You didn't pay for the physical, the client can be downloaded free online. You paid for the code; the access rights, a Key, to property you do not have any ownership of.

Test Me · Oct 17, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I'm not giving legal advice here at all, I'm no expert in the field and I doubt most of us are. So why are we talking about this?

Of course there is emotional distress when you "ban" 6,000 hours of someone's life and of course that may very well lead to legal implications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

And to state again, they have not taken your product. Players seem to believe that because you have some CD's in your hand that you're entitled to do what you want. This is not an offline game. GW is fully online and the schematics are different. You didn't pay for the physical, the client can be downloaded free online. You paid for the code; the access rights, a Key, to property you do not have any ownership of.

IMO I paid for a product (if u think the product is a key, whatever), not for a monthly fee of a service.

BUT according to you they could turn off all their servers and ban all accounts with no specified reason today if they so choose to do. AND you think that is normal. Need I say more?

Hmmm.

Jenn · Oct 17, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musei Karasu

Using that logic, everything you do on a computer is code. When you press the 'a' key on your keyboard it tells the computer 01000001. When you click to move in guildwars it still responds in code. It sends a collection of variables back to the server which then interprets it. It's all still code.

That's obviously true, but missing the point I was trying to make (perhaps I wasn't clear enough?).

The point still stands that whether you use the "script" generator, or just type it out yourself, it can still give a person an advantage over others. So the method in which someone chooses to "macro" or "script/bot" something can have the exact same results, just a different method of getting there.

Which I guess boils down to, "Just because you can buy it in stores doesn't mean that NCSoft will like it."

Test Me · Oct 17, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Which I guess boils down to, "Just because you can buy it in stores doesn't mean that NCSoft will like it."

Which I guess boils down to "because you can buy it in stores it means it is legal, it is useful and there is a demand for it, and NCSoft would better like it."

You can have a better internet connection and that gives you a far bigger advantage than keyboard/mouse macros. Players will never be "equal". Unless you want to put limits on everybody's bandwidth, graphics card, keyboard, monitor, etc etc.