Curse

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

So when I'm playing on a team with a warrior, a dervish, two fire eles, a dom mesmer, a rit and two monks... in other words, a team that puts out considerable sustained damage, and the dervish calls "321 spike", the mesmer shatters enchant, rit uses a-rage on him, and the eles each throw something at the target, I should tell him that we're playing a pressure build and therefore it's improper to call such action a spike, it's "calling targets"?

You cant call 321 spike in Costume Brawl. Wrong game, wrong place, wrong thread, wrong logic, just wrong, therefore by your logic right here of what a spike is....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

the dervish calls "321 spike"

...there are no spikes in CB.

Did you remember that this is the CB thread, not the GVG / HA thread? Of course not. 321 spike is a spike of course. There is no '321 spike' in CB, you are thinking about the wrong game.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I dont do GVG anymore (I used to during Proph - Elly flag runner, top 500 guild), and this isnt GVG, it is costume brawl. You fail at this discussion from the moment you compare it to GVG, good for you.

Randomway =/= GVG.

And I dont brag about my titles anymore, my Rank in HA doesnt matter when you are the one comparing costume brawl to GVG. Lawl @ u.

This is all you do man, someone puts up a good argument, you throw out a straw man (he didn't compare it to GvG at all) and sidestep it. (or completely ignore it like you've admitted you did to my big post for some elitist reason I can't quite remember.)

He is very correct in what he said, homogeneous caster spikes are the minority, most spikes are called when the target is already hurt, but before the backline can respond (usually because the backline is knockdowned or other various reasons). There is a difference between Spike and Pressure (and Balanced does both), and if you are honestly saying that all spikes happen at 100% health and nothing else and that is all there is and if you don't do it at 100% health you're not a spike group, then I think we can all agree you have no idea what you're babbling about and just ignore you. Combat is not PRESSURE ONLY or SPIKE ONLY there are defining moments where it becomes a spike, and moments where it is pressure, and spikes between characters do occur in the CB, and they do kill. If you think otherwise, then you really are daft and there's not much use in even bothering to acknowledge what you're trying to say. (not that there was any before.)

I also like how you're hung up on 2 seconds when I explained I meant 2-5. (it depends on how hurt, whose spiking, who you're spiking (Warrior obviously takes longer cause of 100al vs physical), if you have Battlecry or not, etc. But it's entirely possible.

And you don't need vent at all for Costume Brawl to just spike someone. It's one of the most basic tactics in the game that even a beginner PvEr can get (EVERYONE ATTACK THE SAME TARGET FOR BIG DOMAGE), and if you have someone with half a brain you can effectively pull one off with just the call target function. Seriously.

Quote:

You cant call 321 spike in Costume Brawl. Wrong game, wrong place, wrong thread, wrong logic, just wrong, therefore by your logic right here of what a spike is (321 spike), there are no spikes in CB.

Did you remember that this is the CB thread, not the GVG / HA thread? Of course not.

So when they did they take the ability to call targets out of the game, I don't quite remember this update, maybe you can point it out to me? Please? (plus the person he was talking to was talking about PvP in general, so gj there.)

Tyla · Oct 29, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Saying there's no spikes in CB is dumb. For one, syncronisation and calling through Vent. For two, coordinating spikes is pretty easy, even in random areas when you get people trusting you. I can say that every now and then in my time playing CB, I saw two melee based professions collapse and load up damage on a single target, to deal as much damage as possible in as little time as possible. Unless the definition of spike has changed, ofcourse.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

This is all you do man, someone puts up a good argument, you throw out a straw man (he didn't compare it to GvG at all)

Are you going blind that you missed the whole GVG thing on the last two pages? Why did he have to ask me what my GVG rank is when I am disscussing CB?

All you are doing is talking about GVG and GVG tactics. It is so blatantly obvious that we have a discussion over the last two pages about spiking in GVG. Wow, but oh noes, your not talking about GVG when you talk about 'spikes' in two seconds. There are no spikes in 2 seconds in CB, so WTH are you talking about then? HA maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Saying there's no spikes in CB is dumb. For one, syncronisation and calling through Vent.

The last time I checked, there is no synchronisation and calling through vent in CB. You cannot spike without Vent and someone calling '321 spike'.

Tyrael_Warmage · Oct 29, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

I don't get what so many people have against Mesmers. I played through a few classes right away including Warrior, Ranger, and Ele, and I thought Mesmer by far was the most effective against the most professions. The only 2 Profs. that were any good against me were Monk and Assassin. Monks cover their spells with KD and Sins can take you down before Empathy can do too much damage.

I'd say ideal team would be 2 Mes, 1 Ranger or Warrior, and 2 Ritualists. Maybe sub out a rit for a monk. None of the other professions a are necessarily bad, theyre just not as effective against as many other profs. and thats what really matters.

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Besides, I wasn't replying to you. I gave up on you a few posts ago. If you don't want to learn anything, you will not, even if it's banal terminology. Simple as that.

What I'm defending isn't even an opinion, it's a simple word taken for granted, understood, and used by the PvP community. Your argument is basically "this transparent fluid that we drink isn't called water, it's a COSTUMEBRAWLRAWR", even though everyone who speaks English knows it's called water and accepts that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv (not actually posted yet, but I might as well save myself time and respond to it now)

THIS IS NOT WATER THREAD THIS IS COSTUME BRAWL THREAD YOUR ANALOGY IS WRONG

GG, I'm done.

/bows to the audience

Kha · Oct 29, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It obviously depends on the player, not the build. A capable team with several monks is just bloody awesome.

A capable team of any combination is awesome. I had a team of two rangers, two necros and a paragon that had a win streak. Three of those character builds are considered epic failures by Guru standards, yet when used properly they got the job done very well. And even groups with a monk and a rit couldn't survive us. A good player can make any decent build work, but a good player also can realize when their build is not up to par with the competition.

Btw, there are spikes in Costume Brawl. A capable team that works together doesn't need to hear someone's voice saying "SPIKE!" to know how to spike. There is a team chat and ctrl+*click* for a reason.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

A capable team of any combination is awesome. I had a team of two rangers, two necros and a paragon that had a win streak. Three of those character builds are considered epic failures by Guru standards, yet when used properly they got the job done very well. And even groups with a monk and a rit couldn't survive us. A good player can make any decent build work, but a good player also can realize when their build is not up to par with the competition.

Finally, something I can say /agree to.

Anything can win, but increasin not only monk, but rit numbers as well increades your survivability. My team yesterday was 2 monks, 2 rits, 1 elly, 24 win streak mostly flawlesses, but then we got rolled on a 20-19 loss on the 25th match.

I am saying that all the builds I have played so far are good in costume brawl (Monk, Rit, Elly). Guru standards do not apply and need to be kept out of costume brawl, there is no fault to any of the builds.

As for the spike discussion, I dont consider following calls spiking, but rather ganking the same target. If you take a Ranger spike into HA (look, I'm doing it now, talking about HA o.O), then you need to call on vent and coordinate the attack to successfully spike. Without every attack being syncronised and spot on, hitting at the same time, I do not consider it to be a spike.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

All you are doing is talking about GVG and GVG tactics. It is so blatantly obvious that we have a discussion over the last two pages about spiking in GVG. Wow, but oh noes, your not talking about GVG when you talk about 'spikes' in two seconds. There are no spikes in 2 seconds in CB, so WTH are you talking about then? HA maybe?

You're right, I'm totally talking about GvG tactics, that's it. It's not like spiking is just a common PvP tactic in general, and exactly 0% of all my posts have been about GvG in any real way, but yes you are correct. I am sure when I gave that exact damage example of what a Costume Brawl Assassin bar can do by itself, that I was clearly talking about GvG, and when I suggested using Call target, that I was talking about GvG, and when I mentioned the Dervish Costume Brawl bar that I was also talking about GvG, yes that's exactly it Bhavv you figured it all out!!!

Quote:

Nobody is on vent, no one can spike. They can Gank by attacking the same target, but nothing is either syncronised or timed correctly to call it a spike.

Spike doesn't involve anything being synchronized or timed correctly beyond a call target except a bunch of people (more than 1) attacking the same target to spike damage someone before the backline can react. That's it.

Two warriors unload their adrenaline chain on a target at the same time? Spike.
Your Monk killing somebody by himself with a signet? Not spike.
Two assassins teleing on a Monk and killing him? Spike.
That bad character from X-Men Evolution? Spike.

Quote:

A capable team of any combination is awesome. I had a team of two rangers, two necros and a paragon that had a win streak. Three of those character builds are considered epic failures by Guru standards, yet when used properly they got the job done very well. And even groups with a monk and a rit couldn't survive us. A good player can make any decent build work, but a good player also can realize when their build is not up to par with the competition.

Plus you have to know if you're winning because the enemy team just sucks or if your combination and build is actually up to par or not, a lot of the teams in the CB inevitably suck because its random, after all.

But Bhavv you're incredibly silly because you think you absolutely need to have vent to spike in the Costume Brawl. This is Costume Brawl, not GvG, as you said, and its inevitably a lot more simpler because it *isn't* GvG, and all you need to spike someone is a call target and a person who will cooperate.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Two warriors unload their adrenaline chain on a target at the same time? Spike.
Your Monk killing somebody by himself with a signet? Not spike.
Two assassins teleing on a Monk and killing him? Spike.
That bad character from X-Men Evolution? Spike.

1 = Ganking
2 = a sarcastic joke I made earlier
3 = Ganking
4 = ....

See my explanation above. A spike team in HA wouldnt work without Vent. You cant effectively call a skipe with CTRL-Space. What you are doing is calling a target and having people follow, but people hitting the foe at random intervals and the foe getting infused = fail.

I should know, when I was rank 1 (Early days in Proph), I loaded up an 'Air Spike' build and entered an Air spike group wihout vent but using CTRL-Space. That was not spiking, it was just a random mess and we couldnt kill anything.

People in high end PVP do not spike without Vent / TS. CTRL - Space is jut 'Attack my target'. The attacks come, but they are usually too far apart to create a 'spike', all it does is 'gank' the opponent and eventually kill him.

CTRL-Calling in RA has never ever been considered spiking before. I have never been in an RA group that says 'Spike my target', they say 'attack the same target'. I do not believe the spike mechanic in GVG + HA is the same mechanic as CTRL-Space calling in randomway. If no one actually calls 'spike', and no one presses their 'spike' skill on the command, then it isnt a spike.

There needs to be a seperation between GVG and HA mechanics from RA and CB. The same rules and mechanics that apply to GVG / HA like spiking in 2 seconds do not apply here.

Kha · Oct 29, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

As for the spike discussion, I dont consider following calls spiking, but rather ganking the same target. If you take a Ranger spike into HA (look, I'm doing it now, talking about HA o.O), then you need to call on vent and coordinate the attack to successfully spike. Without every attack being syncronised and spot on, hitting at the same time, I do not consider it to be a spike.

Just all switching to one target isn't a spike, I agree. But I don't believe you need vent to truly coordinate a spike. I *know* this because I have had teams spike very effectively in CB, generally with my assassin. The key is to harrass certain members while saving your real strengths for one target. You spike them with your powerful skills; an assassin's chain, Shatterstone, SoJs, etc. This generaly works best on a team with a winning streak that has already gotten a taste of how to work as a team and has a good understanding of the other's playing style. This does not require a team to be synched or use vent; just that all members know what they are doing and are willing to work as a team. I have had teams effectively spike a ritualist to death in less than 5 seconds after they wasted WoW on a false-spike target.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

1 = Ganking
2 = a sarcastic joke I made earlier
3 = Ganking
4 = ....

See my explanation above. A spike team in HA wouldnt work without Vent. You cant effectively call a skipe with CTRL-Space. What you are doing is calling a target and having people follow, but people hitting the foe at random intervals and the foe getting infused = fail.

I should know, when I was rank 1 (Early days in Proph), I loaded up an 'Air Spike' build and entered an Air spike group wihout vent but using CTRL-Space. That was not spiking, it was just a random mess and we couldnt kill anything.

People in high end PVP do not spike without Vent / TS. CTRL - Space is jut 'Attack my target'. The attacks come, but they are usually too far apart to create a 'spike', all it does is 'gank' the opponent and eventually kill him.

CTRL-Calling in RA has never ever been considered spiking before. I have never been in an RA group that says 'Spike my target', they say 'attack the same target'. I do not believe the spike mechanic in GVG + HA is the same mechanic as CTRL-Space calling in randomway. If no one actually calls 'spike', and no one presses their 'spike' skill on the command, then it isnt a spike.

There needs to be a seperation between GVG and HA mechanics from RA and CB. The same rules and mechanics that apply to GVG / HA like spiking in 2 seconds do not apply here.

I like how you jump down other people's throats for mentioning other game modes (even when it doesn't make sense) and then you post this which is nothing but other game modes and other game mode examples.

Either way, you're wrong. All spiking is is a large influx of damage by a group. Whether that's 2 Warriors unloading his entire spike adrenaline bar, a bunch of eles doing it, or what, it's a spike. That's it. It doesn't matter if its done in vent or through call target.

Ganking is killing a small group or an alone individual with a bigger group. ie: 3v1 is a gank. 5v2 is a gank. Not all ganks are spikes, and not all spikes are ganks. They're completely different terms.

The Meth · Oct 29, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

If you are stupid enough to put yourself open to a spike in CB, you deserve to be spiked. Good players don't do that. The only reason you should otherwise die in CB is if you get snared.

own age myname · Oct 29, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I can't believe the mods aren't doing anything...this is really getting outa hand.

You all got your own opinions and each of you are right and wrong. If this is such a low grade of PvP like you're all talking about there is no use in arguing over anything...

Erik Fox · Oct 29, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

I agree with own age myname. Y'all should smoke moar, argue less, and realize that CB is just for fun.

Ranger Icarus · Oct 29, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

To be honest, I think ritualists are better healers, although damage input isn't as good as monks, but what monks lack in healing they make up for in damage input.

Turalisj · Oct 29, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

The class that is seriously shafted is the assassin. Every other class can shut them down quickly without much effort and when it comes to sin vs sin the one who presses 1-2-3-4 fast enough wins.

lilDeath · Oct 29, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

omfg... this thread is epic!
In before /close

Anyway, I really see no point as to why DarkNecrid, Alleji, Tyla, Moko and some others are even bothering to post such huge posts, some in tremendous detail (I appreciated your posts Dark) and then having some of the members (mostly this bhavv dude) just simply completely ignore the facts (which actually involved tests and real number crunching!) or take the complete post out of context...
I think the power (ability?) of comprehension is simply not there. Maybe too many words are being used, since I notice more coherent responses from aforementioned member when another post has been made by other members...

At least have the decency to counter with the same detail or number crunching to prove your point and to show you are correct ... I haven't seen any of this from bhavv, so frankly... GTFO. OR. STFU.
Simply saying "OMFG! THIS BUILD ROX COZ IMA PRO AND YALL SUK DOKNEY BALLS" is a really, very, very.... VERY stupid argument and not a good way to prove your point.

Now to actually say how I have found CB...
Like so many before me have said... We all agree the Ranger is a good char / build to have in CB. 'nuff said.
Necro / Para is very poor in this format.. there are simply better builds.
Rit is better than Monk on all levels, having both in your team is win!
Warrior / Derv are about equal I reckon, with Derv pulling slightly in front due to DW spam and better IAS.
Mesmer is good, but not against everything.
The sin for me has been very enjoyable to play. I have had the most win streaks with her.

Best team I have been in was with me as sin, 2 rits, ele and derv. We owned 3 monk teams (came back from 5-0, to win 20-9) and several other combinations of 1 monk, rit, 2 ele's, warrior or mesmer, etc, 2 monk teams, etc. We lost a rit which got replaced by another derv and we lost the streak 2 games later.

The sin I find very survivable, 2 healing skills are awesome, snaring warriors / dervs / sins that's after me to kite away and either self heal or wait for rit to do his thing.
Monks went down fast... I lost count of how many I killed...
And yes, I would often call a SPIKE on a monk at +-40% hp (% mentioned as example, don't go overboard with this one ;P) to finish him off, as before this SPIKE call the rest was attacking targets of the opposing team. CTRL+SPACE ftw!

Tyla · Oct 29, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Fox

I agree with own age myname. Y'all should smoke moar, argue less, and realize that CB is just for fun.

I can't smoke because I'm underage, but I understand CB is for fun.

Productivity · Oct 29, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Not without Vent you cant.

Good players can. Last night I was playing and spiking with an ele without ever being on vent - it's called awareness of the field and knowing when targets are low.

Good players can do it and coordinate their damage without vent - you may not be able to do this.