Curse

I Is Special · Oct 29, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

The monk build is Amazing in costume brawl. People suck, and you can abuse it really easily.

Honestly, stop denying it.

Really.

...

...Seriously......

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

The elly snares are absolutely useless in CB and are nothing more then a minor hindrance compared to a team with 3 monks - you have to stand on a shrine for a good long time before you cap, being snared for a few seconds doesnt stop a monk from getting to the shrine and holding it against either a ranger or elementalist. Simply put, the monk as well as the rit are the best classes for this game because they can defend their shrines and outlast any enemy on a 1v1,
and often in a 2v1 situation. They may lose the shrine in the latter, but while they are holding two foes at bay, the rest of the game now becomes 4v3 in the monk or rits favor.

Rangers are surprisingly far to easy for a monk to deal with, I have done so everytime I encounter one, but here, your argument is always 'the ranger was bad'. When I outclass an Elementalist - 'The elementalist was bad'.

In case you havnt realised, I am not, and refuse to listen to any of your points because they are actually pulled out of your ass. What I am saying is not pulled out of anywhere, I have spent everyday monking in CB, I have also played Elly and Rit, and I am sorry to say that with experience of having played these three classes for years and already knowing them inside out, and also from playing CB all these days, THE MONK IS THE BEST CLASS IN COSTUME BRAWL 2008.

I dont really think why you bother to argue against this. You really cant be playing costume brawl yourself at all from the comments you make, and why would I actually be bothering to play my monk instead of my main character (Elly) if it wasnt any better? Playing the monk gives me and my group the highest chance of success then any other class. I know how to play the build and play it well, as I know how to play all the carter builds. The monk is the best build and gives me a far better chance of getting +5 ToT bags, so I will continue playing it while you keep on hating it. Your loss, more ToT bags for me.

Get out of the CB thread and go back to the PVP forums kthnxbye.

chessyang · Oct 29, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

14 pages of reading... why can't the weekend come any faster....

*sigh*

GW seems fun again. keep the short stories coming.

Kha · Oct 29, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Agreed Tyla. Just stop.
I ran into a team with 4 monks and one warrior today. They were pretty much unstopable (no way to kill em, even with mesmers and rangers on our team there is no way you can shut down all of them at once).

I found four monks a pretty poor team strategy. I fought an obviously synched team of four monks and a dervish with my sin. They went down very fast. No mesmer on our team, but did have a ranger. Don't need to shut them all down. Just need to put some pressure on with target switching before you spike. It was much easier than fighting a two rit and 1 monk team - hardest defense I've encountered so far. Again good false spiking before going in for the kill caught them off guard. Problem is you need a team that actually works together to do proper spiking in CB, and thusly most strong defensive teams have the advantage.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

4 monks seems problematic, 3 is the magic number with two warriors or dervishes to collect conditions and hexes for them.

Kha · Oct 29, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

4 monks seems problematic, 3 is the magic number with two warriors or dervishes to collect conditions and hexes for them.

Three I find silly. Two monks and a rit is better. Two rits and a monk is better. I rather have a sin and ranger/dervish over having a warrior, but that's cause I find the warrior not at its full potential in CB. Even just a monk and a rit could be better and I would prefer for allowing more variety in full team build. Two or three defense professions (monk or ritualist) is the ideal combo imho. Anything more or less, and you don't have quite the balance to be able to counter a vast majority of opponent combinations.

Ranger Icarus · Oct 29, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Unfortunately, I was on a team with 3 monks, including myself. At the start one monk declared "smitespike" and the other monk joined with him on a smiting frenzy, while I was left to heal...It didn't go well...at all.

LazyLink · Oct 29, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Personally, I don't listen to CA/RA/AB "generals" because they usually don't know anything and are just trying to get others to feed their ego, some control issues are definately in order.

The monk build does suck, easily shutdown by a ranger, only skills that have a shorter casting time than 1 second are RoD and VS. However, compared to other CA builds it fairs decently, as good as any CA builds other than the ranger. If anyone plans on bringing a smite support monk to RA, dont expect to own with it. After the nerf to Smiter's Boon it is pointless in RA (I don't know about GvG). I speak from experience. Back before the nerf, I ran a dual boon monk because it was really fun and fairly effective, but in a long fight against high physical damage it simply doesn't hold up, and against a Shattering Assault Sin (which were popular at the time) it gets completely owned.

However, I can also tell you from experience that back before the nerf, a dual boon Smite monk with -2 physical damage shield, and survivor insignias could survive a Shove spike team build fairly easily.

Feathermoore Rep · Oct 29, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

4 monks is excessive and unless they are good or on vent together they will over heal/rod their targets because they all have the same skills. Even then their lack of direct heals will probably bite them in the end.

I will concede that Rts are Better healers. I will however not concede they out damage Monks. Monks are offense with just enough defense to support the team. Rts are defense with just enough offense to contribute.

You may be able to 1v1 monks and avoid bane signets, but thats not the strong suit of the skill. The strong suit of bane and soj come from 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 and 5v5. Not 1v1s. No person has eyes in the back of their head or can tell what target is the subject of the bane/soj. Its in these skirmish were soj and bane sig are usefull. Sure if the ranger or mesmer is smart they stick on them and interupt them. This however only works in teams with 1 monk. But still with only 2 interupts on each bar, the monk has sooo much else to do. The entire bar has utility. You dshot soj. Fine i still have my smites and rod. You savage shot rod. Fine. I cast HB and vig on a caster taking damage and smite off the melee who is attacking. Sure when everyone balls up, smites do fantastic damage. But they still remove conditions/hexes no matter what, but almost all the time you'll hit one person with your smite unless your smiting off a snare or a fresh insidious.

Even with hexes that out recharge smite hex, the necro will not and cannot just spam hexes continously on one target. And if they are good, they will be spreading hexes to spread pressure. Even if an ally isn't near a target, smite hex still can be used to relieve pressure from the hexes. When i monk CB in a good battle, rod and smites are almost always cast on recharge and I am well aware of where the mesmer and rangers are on the field as well. And when they are recharging, I'm bane siging the warrior who is attacking, or soj the ele's shatterstone while kiting whatever sad attempt for a melee is chasing me.

The problem with the Rt is the lack of condition/hex removal and slowness of heals/condition for warding spell for more healing. With no monk, the other team will be able to out degen you. As well, Rts have no prot against a spike. Thats where RoD comes in. Unfortunately, unless you get lucky and DW or the degen hex isn't covered, the target will likely still die from the follow up due to the monks lack of spike heals. But this is why the best team combination involves at least 1 Rt and 1 monk. The fact is that the pressure relief from smite hex/condition even without the dmg factor is a vital factor in CB. A factor that the Rt cannot provide.

Some more facts, all important hexes and snare can be removed with smite hex before being covered if the monk is paying attention.

DW can generally be removed immeadiately, unless a ranger is keeping poison on the said target. The same goes for cripple.

Vig cast on a caster or even a melee provide subtle yet necessary passive healing.

HB is is great for offsetting degen, when it can not be removed due to constant reapplication. And degen skills are highly prevalent in CB.

RoD is both offense and defense, and spike preventing. Shatterstone spike prevent with RoD. DW spike, RoD then Smite Condition immediately.

Bane Signet/SoJ can both shutdown spikes and allow other players to kite away from melee.

Castigation only usefull if your tanking and/or because the other team is retarded.

You can put it on paper that smiting off conditions and hexes even with no dmg addition is negligible, but in reality its extremely usefull in relieving pressure and allowing ppl to kite, Something that Rts can't do. Thats why monks are great in CB.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 29, 2008, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoore Rep

DW spike, RoD then Smite Condition immediately.

Smite condition cannot keep Wounding strike at bay.

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As well, Rts have no prot against a spike.

Weapon of Warding. Especially since the most dangerous damage will come from physicals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

What I am saying is not pulled out of anywhere, I have spent everyday monking in CB, I have also played Elly and Rit, and I am sorry to say that with experience of having played these three classes for years and already knowing them inside out, and also from playing CB all these days, THE MONK IS THE BEST CLASS IN COSTUME BRAWL 2008.

I dont really think why you bother to argue against this. You really cant be playing costume brawl yourself at all from the comments you make, and why would I actually be bothering to play my monk instead of my main character (Elly) if it wasnt any better? Playing the monk gives me and my group the highest chance of success then any other class. I know how to play the build and play it well, as I know how to play all the carter builds. The monk is the best build and gives me a far better chance of getting +5 ToT bags, so I will continue playing it while you keep on hating it.

I don't see a good argument in saying x build is the best just because x build is your favorite and what you use the most.

And omfg people are DEFENDING HEALING BREEZE!?!?

Numa Pompilius · Oct 29, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger Icarus

Unfortunately, I was on a team with 3 monks, including myself. At the start one monk declared "smitespike" and the other monk joined with him on a smiting frenzy, while I was left to heal...It didn't go well...at all.

Haha, my monk found itself in a group like that too. I was amazed that the other guys did nothing but wand while their signets were recharging.
It's not like you have to choose whether to be offensive or heal!

That, and, in another match, getting a leech-bot on the team (a player that followed the team leader but did nothing, and after being killed ran into a wall by the spawnpoint and stood there for the rest of the match), were the low-points of my gaming yesterday.

EDIT: And healing breeze isn't so bad in CB as there's not much enchant removal. Most of the time it gets to deliver full payload, which is 150 health for 10 energy. Yeah, patient spirit or WoH would be better, but it's not as bad as it'd be if the opposition didn't have sucky bars too.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

EDIT: And healing breeze isn't so bad in CB as there's not much enchant removal. Most of the time it gets to deliver full payload, which is 150 health for 10 energy. Yeah, patient spirit or WoH would be better, but it's not as bad as it'd be if the opposition didn't have sucky bars too.

150 health for 10 energy over a long period of time. It's good for stopping pressure on degen conditions (most of the time it won't actually "heal" you.) but then again so is Weapon of Warding and the Ritualist's superior healing power, which also just so happens to be good versus Spiking unlike the Monk's stuff. It's not as bad as it would be in other types, but it's still one of the worst skills in the game mode because just like in the other modes its vastly overshadowed by better options.

Quote:

You can put it on paper that smiting off conditions and hexes even with no dmg addition is negligible, but in reality its extremely usefull in relieving pressure and allowing ppl to kite, Something that Rts can't do. Thats why monks are great in CB.

Not going to make another long post in reply to the rest of your post right now (But I agree with a few things and disagree with a majority of it, tho.) considering Bhavv ignored my entire freaking post and responded with "omg it owns because its my favorite!1!!111!1!!111!" and said the same stupid stuff about it not being GvG (no shit sherlock), that I don't play it (which makes me lol considering I've played all the bars extensively), and that he's not pulling it out of ass even though he didn't argue any of my points because he can't and his only argument was that it was his favorite, and that is very annoying that he sidesteps my entire argument.

But I will reply to this since I very much so disagree more so than anything else you said, and also because it's the core point of your post really: Ritualists have superior pressure relief (and can keep doing it over and over for all eternity since it's impossible to run out of energy as a Ritualist if you know what you're doing, even if you have 2 mesmers burning you over and over you're still good), and most of the time the mobility hindering abilities, while bad, can be worked around by just being smart if not a Ranger, or by being a Ranger. It's hard to rip the right Hex or Condition in a 2v2+ spike because they're applied and covered by everyone that has them. This is why the removal is subpar, because most of the time you're not going to remove the right thing and the damage effect does not make up for that.

(And to Bhavv or whoever the hell mentioned Cure Hex and Dismiss in a real game, Cure Hex and Dismiss have way better and more useful auxiliary effects than Smite Hex and Smite Condition do and in Dismiss's case, recharges way faster than Smite Condition does. That's why they're used. But you also have Veil & RC on top of it in a top end match so...)

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Veil and RC are HA and GVG skills, Veil can also be used in arenas. If you are using these skills in PVE then you are doing it wrong. I love it when R9+ hero PVP players enter PVE with their godly PVP builds and get owned in HM. Ive seen it happen lots of time when pugging for HM with high ranked PVPers insisting on using their builds because they are pro, and then failing hard in HM PVE.

Speaking from a PVE perspective with H/H, i can see smiteway becoming more popular now.

You obvioulsly arent bothering to read my posts either if you think that I am only defending the build because it is my favorite. I have had more success with the monk build then any other and have found it to work better then the other carters for this type of gameplay.

And if you are playing right, Healing Breeze only costs 7 energy. For both RA and PVE, HC monk with H Breeze, Vig Spirit, P Spirit, Spotless Spells and D kiss is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing epic at pushing red bars up. This works fantastically in PVE alongside a modified Seaguard Gita build with RoF, Dismiss Condition, GoH, Life Sheath, SoA, Gole, Prot Spirit, Aegis.

This is where my defence for Healing Breeze comes from. Healing Breeze + Prot Spirit, SoA or SH on the same target followed by D kiss is just an epic 'red bar up' combination.

If regen is so bad, then what is so useful about wep of warding? 10e just for 50% block? In fact, the Regen from wep of warding is useless, a monk using both Guardian and the 5e DF regen spell is much more effective.

And as I said before which you ignored, Wep of Warding is useless against the elly, mes and necro, healing Breeze covered with vig Spirit plus Rod spam and smite condition and hex is far more usefull against the caster classes.

As far as healing prayers go, without HC or Healers boon, there are only 5 good healing spells - P Spirit, D Kiss, WoH, Cure Hex and GoH for hybrids (oh, 7 if you include spotless). HB makes every other healing spell more usefull, HC AND Energy Shrine make Healing Breeze very usefull, and Vig Spirit becomes usefull when placed on top of H Breeze.

Lern 2 play monk before bashing H Breeze.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

If regen is so bad, then what is so useful about wep of warding? 10e just for 50% block? In fact, the Regen from wep of warding is useless, a monk using both Guardian and the 5e DF regen spell is much more effective.

10e for an unstrippable 50% block. It's more effecient than Guardian is (which is why it's so good, even here where Guardian doesn't exist. It's a very very verry very very very VERY very very good skill), since at same duration 12 spec, you'd need to pop 2 guardians (10e), and it'll still last shorter and could be ripped by a Necro just to get the sam effect, PLUS that's not including the regen effect into its cost.

Quote:

And as I said before which you ignored, Wep of Warding is useless against the elly, mes and necro, healing Breeze covered with vig Spirit plus Rod spam and smite condition and hex is far more usefull against the caster classes.

Healing Breeze nine times out of 10 isn't going to be healing anybody (neither is WoW), or if it does it'll be for 1-2 pips. (note: I'm assuming there's no competent Necros on the enemy team, because if there is, WoW is just better outright.), so all it's really good for is relieving pressure. WoW is good at relieving pressure from degen, but it's also good at stopping spike and not-degen pressure thanks to its 50% block that can't be removed.

50% block saves lives during spike or pressure (a multitude of it, and spellcaster damage is not good enough to kill anybody by itself if you're a Rit unless if its 5x eles in this mode, thanks to your healing prowess and +24 armor buff.), whereas Healing Breeze just eases up the amount of red bar go up you really need (which doesn't matter if your a Rit, you might as well have infinite energy in this mode) but it falls pretty quickly to any competent spike or non-degen related pressure/spike in general.

Out of the 3 classes you mentioned, only 1 of them is a threat to the Ritualist. The Ritualist can outheal anything the Mesmer and Necromancer can do pretty easily (the Necromancer doesn't have any spellcaster targeted damage outside of its hex degen which is a non-issue for the Rt), and the Ele is only a problem if there's a ton of them. (but they'd be a problem for the Monk too, neither build is build to stand up to that kind of combined damage, on purpose.)

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Yes wep of warding is a good skill, so is healing breeze if it lasts its full 15 seconds, even if it only counters degen. I do think it would be far better if the monk had D Kiss, but all the other skills are working for the gameplay in CB so it isnt too big a problem.

As mentioned before, RoD spam over healing breeze and Vig Spirit completely negates and out heals damage from the elementalist, it does the same against every other class which is what makes it a good build. But you refuse to listen to this. If you have the energy Shrine, energy is not a problem, plus you get +9 energy every 15 secs from castagion signet to use on your next H Breeze.

Rit can also outheal the elly, you just have a harder time because you need to switch targetting for your self heals and Caretakers Charge. A monk can just heal themselves and watch their red bar go up, and enemy red bar go down.

And no, the rit doesnt do more damage the monk, the monk is easilly dealing out more damage.

Nothing is a threat to the monk, monk > all the other builds. And before you cry about D Shot again, D Shot also works against wep of warding, in which case the Rit is now useless.

The Meth · Oct 29, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Healing breeze is healing for 150 health? What game are you playing? With +20% enchant you will have 18 seconds of 16 health a second + 28 divine favor bonus = 316 health. Its an exceptional healing skill if you aren't under threat of a spike (and 95% of the time in CB you aren't). IMO WoW is overrated in CB, if a physical enemy is bothering you in CB you RUN THE HELL AWAY. Simply going away gives you 100% blocking. Casters with range and possibly snares are the biggest problem in CB. Not to say WoW is bad, but it doesn't make the whole build.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Rofflelmao for running away for 100% blocking.

Like I said I have no idea what the regen formula is, but if H Breeze is that much health gain over 15 seconds lol @ H Breeze haters. You are hardly ever under spike threat in CB unless you go killroy into a mob of enemies. When running around and kiting under enemy pressure, H Breeze is godly for red bar up if you arent going to be spiked in under 5 seconds (no that doesnt happen in CB unless you fight without health shrines in which case you're doing it totally wrong).

If you dont have the health shrines, you shouldnt be fighting, you should be running. If you have both health shrines and 840 health, healing Breeze and vig spirit are the most effective skills to heal damage over time with this much health. Wielders Boon hardly does anything at all with 840 max health.

ele pl · Oct 29, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

In conclusion. Healing Breeze is BAD at normal playing, when Healing Breeze is DECENT when it comes to the Costume Brawl. End of discushun, rite?

Horseman Of War · Oct 29, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

im very disappointed in this years Paragon.

Last year the Paragon could solo any warrior or sin... This year the para is all DPS

Anthem of Flame??? MORE LIKE ANTHEM OF FAIL!!!

I remember the sin last year was super-fun, this years' just seems so-so.
;/

This year, Ive really only played my RIT, and Im up from 4.3k gamer pts to 7k (mad skillz) and even though I SHOULD have saved all my tot bags and XZeys til the end of the week, sadly ive been opening as quick as I get ("this is why we cant have nice things!!!"). But anyways Im up to just under a stack of all 3 candys.

lewlewlew 'anthem of lame'

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Nothing is a threat to the monk, monk > all the other builds. And before you cry about D Shot again, D Shot also works against wep of warding, in which case the Rit is now useless.

I never mentioned D-Shot...ever? (but either way it's called cancel casting and dodging arrows, btw)

Quote:

And no, the rit doesn't do more damage the monk, the monk is easilly dealing out more damage.

I disagree (but unlike you, I'm not going to be vague and not pull this out of my ass like you say I do). The only time the Monk out DPS's a Ritualist is if the following occurs:
-RoD always does the max 70 damage packet back each time (will never happen)
-Each RoD is procced (also might not happen)
-Each Smite Hex and Smite Condition is fueled by their recharge time and is able to hit the same target who never leaves range. (ie: we're assuming this guy is always near you)

Even versus a 80 Armor Level target like the Warrior, the Ritualist will out DPS the Monk (I mention AL, because all of the Monks stuff is Holy, ergo armor ignoring.) because those 3 things are never going to happen 100% of the time. If they do (read: bad players), the Monk does snag a small lead, but you're relying on those things to happen 100% of the time, and to not be doing anything else when this stuff comes up on recharge to maximize your DPS over the Ritualist because unless you assume RoD is doing its 70 damage packet each time (again: impossible.), the DPS values are in favor of the Ritualist by a fair margin.

I have already done 30&60 second DPS tests with the Ritualist and Monk (and every other class for that matter, including HPS tests with the Ritualist and Monk, which the Ritualist also wins), both assuming that these 3 constants are happening 100% of the time for the Monk, 100AL target (a damage mitigation of 29% over the 60AL for the Ritualist's DPS) vs 60 AL target, and the 3 constants not happening 100% (both never and averages) of the time. The Ritualist has a lead all the time unless if you can consistently have the above 3 things occurring 100% of the time which is impossible to guarantee versus any player who has a clue. (and I didn't even take Ancestor's Rage into account with the tests either, so adding that could give an even bigger lead to the Ritualist.)

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Like I said I have no idea what the regen formula is

You say I don't play the Costume Brawl or don't know what I'm talking about but you don't even know the simple 2 Health per second per pip Health regeneration/degeneration formula that is one of the most basic things in the game????

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(no that doesnt happen in CB unless you fight without health shrines in which case you're doing it totally wrong).

A 2 bar clean spike can kill you with more than enough damage to spare even with both Health shrines. I dunno what bad teams you are playing with, but it isn't that hard to get a simple 2 man spike going on one dude if you have even 1 remotely smart person on your team. I can guess what bad teams tho, I've had them too. (4 paras ftw?)

Quote:

Wielders Boon hardly does anything at all with 840 max health.

Maybe if they didn't have a prot that was taking ~50% of the big physical damage (which outclasses even the ele in damage, obviously. The ele just isn't weak to this prot) away this would be true.

Quote:

In conclusion. Healing Breeze is BAD at normal playing, when Healing Breeze is DECENT when it comes to the Costume Brawl. End of discushun, rite?

If by decent you mean it is ok vs pressure (when no Necros are around) but dies to a basic spike that happens quite often if you aren't playing in stupid American districts unlike the Ritualists actual direct heals, then yes.