Curse

Mooky · Nov 24, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

You realize that guild tags are not unique. In this case you not only avoid people from the same guild but also all innocent people who happened to have the same tag...

Yes, this is true, but in most cases guild tags are unique and i dont run into this issue. Like i said not a perfect system but i work with what i have.

Im also against spam recruiting... if you dont know what type of people are in your guild thats your problem. But that is another topic all together

garethporlest18 · Nov 24, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I'm just going to jump in here and add that abuse for reporting in PvE won't happen at all or very rarely. Because like it was said in this thread already, 7 players aren't going to randomly kick one player out unless they're really leeching. So that isn't a valid argument, use some logic.

Also, I don't know if this is exactly needed simply because in my 3 years of playing I've seen less than 5 leechers in PvE.

Darkobra · Nov 24, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

So you want 7 people in a party to report an 8th for leeching? Genius. Sheer genius. Absolutely flawless.

Except for the fact that most people don't report, this would waste their time, I'd be impressed if it's used ONCE legitimately and, wait for the big one, as pathetically stupid as people are, they can adapt! Bring a leeching friend! 6 people can't shun the remaining 2 because it takes SEVEN to report!

Intent good, suggestion horrible.

Servant of Kali · Nov 24, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

lol Darkobra,

so we have 2 conflicting arguments of my opponents:

1st: 7 people wont report someone, that doesnt happen, so your idea is flawed
2st: 7 people have no problem reporting someone, this will happen often, so your idea is flawed.

Can my opponents please pick a common counter-arguments? Because this is silly.

Amy Awien · Nov 24, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

... If you can't deal with that - play with h/h.

If you want to play with other people you'd better get used to their phones and doorbells ringing. If you can not deal with such breaks, play with H&H who don't have doors and phones.

Please don't PuG anymore, they're better off without you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

If you support criminals you have criminal mentality.

If you see leeching - let alone taking a toilet break - as criminal behaviour you need to talk with a shrink. Your idea about your own importance is delusional.

Quote:

... in my mission ...

That says it all, "my mission". It's all about you, your needs and wants. Play with H&H if you can not cope with real people, NPC's don't take toilet breaks.

Quote:

... have some consideration towards your teammates ...

You mean you. It's all about you here, your game, your mission, and while you are too lame to take other people into consideration you expect them to do everything for you.

Quote:

... I dont care for your IRL ...

Then play with your H&H who don't have a RL and don't get phonecalls, but don't PuG and expect the people in your team to become your H&H. Without people like you PuGs might actually become enjoyable again.

Zebideedee · Nov 24, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I go to the toilet, answer the phone etc. all the time in parties, I've never had anyone say "ZOMG, NOT COMIN BACK WUT A NUB ALL REPORT" so far everyone has always been ok as long as I let them know I'm going and not just go afk without telling anyone

upier · Nov 24, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If you want to play with other people you'd better get used to their phones and doorbells ringing. If you can not deal with such breaks, play with H&H who don't have doors and phones.

Please don't PuG anymore, they're better off without you.

See, here's the thing.
People take other people into parties to adventure or kill things with them.
They do NOT take other people with them to go AFK. Well, normally.
Now, life can happen. So that person can ask others to wait for him.
They CAN do so. BUT they do not need to do so. Because that guy wasn't accepted into the team to sit around but he was taken into the team to kill things. So something like being asked to leave is completely acceptable.
IF one can not accept that other people might deny his wish to sit around and wait for him to get back - then that person is better of playing with h/h.

Shadowmoon · Nov 24, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

This is one of the few games i know that party leaders can't kick party members mid instance and because of it, it has caused many problems IMO.

aapo · Nov 24, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The report system is horrible. If this came to PvE it would be worse.

"Brb gotta do something will only be a min"
*1 min and 10 seconds later*
"OMG HES LATE HES NOT COMING BACK OMG LEECHER OMG"
*Report x7*
*20 seconds later*
"Hey sorry back.... wtf?"

You can't trust the population of GW with report -_-;

- But this is just one side of the story. I've also had examples of behavior that just make playing with total strangers very displeasing experience. One guy might play to the point where his teammates are reluctant to give up the goal, like while vanquishing area. Then he just goes AFK knowing he would get credit of other's work while at the same team decreasing their chances with his absence.

My suggestion:
Implement /votekick function. When certain percent of remaining players want to votekick leecher, he would be forced to return to last outpost. Abusing this function would be counter-productive, as kicking players for light reasons takes away of team's potential. Threat of kicking could be used as means to fight back against antisocial behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If you want to play with other people you'd better get used to their phones and doorbells ringing. If you can not deal with such breaks, play with H&H who don't have doors and phones.

- Which coincidentally makes 2 players and 6 heroes the most optimal team to play in. First of all, you pick who you're playing with. Pick friendly and sensible person, even if he's not that good at least you can teach him and feel good about yourself. That's how friendships are formed. In a full PUG, however, there's one guy who doesn't know the map, one guy who goes bathroom every 10 minutes, one guy who doesn't know crap about the game, one guy who's just complaining and cursing at others. It not fault of anyone in particular, but playing in team of 8 for 2-hour vanquishing run takes commitment and sacrificing your own needs for team. It's not enough that 4 players sacrifice, if other 4 don't. I don't blame players here, I blame the game design which puts these players to unreasonable position. Any activity that takes more than 1 hour to complete without break is just bad design. Examples include Urgoz's Warren and vanquishing of some of the larger areas.

Earth · Nov 24, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

It's really that simple. You can't defend a criminal and say you're not at least a potential one yourself.
1. I dont care for your IRL. Do you understand this? If I play a mission mission is my IRL. And IRL of everyone who plays the mission. If you have baby crying then
a) use condom next time

Some people want to have babies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

b) get used to it. Babies cry.

Yes! Get used to it, babies cry, and they need time. Humans take priority over some stupid game, and incase you didn't know, babies are humans.
If you fail to understand this, please don't have kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

b) dont play mission, you obviously have IRL so take care of it

I thought a mission in a game was your RL?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

c) play with heroes and henchies

Sometimes people prefer to play with humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

e) take it like a man and be reported, dont get mission reward, and stay blocked from PvE for.. i dunno 10 minutes. Remember, you have IRL, so this is totally irrelevant to you. You could be blocked from GW for a year and it would still be irrelevant to you because you have IRL.

I'm not even going to bother with this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

f) you can stay at the beginning of the mission and type us nice messages of how you have IRL, so you can grief us, leech, insult us, flame, curse, biatch, abandon, aggro 3 mobs so we die etc.. because you have IRL and abstract fictional online players are irrelevant.

You are, indeed, irrelevant to me because I do not know you. I don't care about you, nor do I have any reason to.
This does not mean though, that someone will leech. I have a RL, and sometimes that takes priorities and it just so happens that it pops up at the beginning at a mission. If I notify my party of it, and they continue on without me even though it'll only take a few minutes, that's their own fault, and they shouldn't have to blame me. I'd be happy to complete the mission once I get back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Now, I know you still did not understand, so let me repeat for the fourth time:
Get a life. Stop playing GW. It's bad for you, it's bad for us.

I thought the people you were arguing for already had a life?

Abedeus · Nov 24, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Sometimes people prefer to play with humans.

Well, sometimes people prefer to hit themselves with hammers till their brains explode.

One of the reasons I don't play with pugs. Only H/H and guildies. Heroes won't report you if you have to afk for 8 hours because you need to sleep.

...But they also won't manage to do anything without you. Oh well, life goes on.

Shadowhaze · Nov 24, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

I don't mind if people let the team know they have to go afk for a bit to use the restroom or deal with a kid or something, they dc (out of their control), or whatnot. Those times the people I was with had no problem with waiting for them to return. As long as they come back in a reasonable amount of time (ex. - before the mission is done). But when a person is afk for maybe 3/4 of the mission or whatever and doesn't move or say a word, then it seems more like a lazy bum who wants a free ride. That's when it gets annoying.

Amy Awien · Nov 24, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Now, life can happen. So that person can ask others to wait for him.
They CAN do so. BUT they do not need to do so.

Indeed, they can choose.

Quote:

IF one can not accept that other people might deny his wish to sit around and wait for him to get back - then that person is better of playing with h/h.

Life happens, I've yet to encounter adventuring session (with people) of any significant duration where there wasn't some deviation of the 'ideal' path, in whatever form including toilet breaks, during or in between missions - and usually more then once. If one is bothered by such event, one should not play with people.

When people are more aware that they play with other people, when there is more tolerance in a group, the adventuring tends to be more fun and quests and missions are generally accomplished more easily.

If one can not accept that the people one plays with are real people and not henchmen, one should not attempt to play with people and stick to the H&H. A PvE report feature will not turn real people into henchmen.

Servant of Kali · Nov 24, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If you see leeching - let alone taking a toilet break - as criminal behaviour you need to talk with a shrink.

1) I didnt say leeching is criminal behavior. You need to go back to school and learn some logic. And what analogy is.
2) If you need to take a toilet while doing 20-30min mission, grow up. Or buy diapers. Imagine if you were in a bus and the next stop is 20min away. What would you do?

Quote:

That says it all, "my mission". It's all about you, your needs and wants.

Oh? And "I have IRL so I can abandon 7 other people and couldnt care less" is not about YOU missie?

Let's see:
Me+6 other people = 7 people. So how is it about me? You think 6 other people enjoy? That's interesting, I did not notice that whenever someone leeches. Everyone seems annoyed.

Let's see now this:
You = single one. Griefing 7 others because of you you you you mentality.

How dare you say that my proposal is all about me, and present your case as altruistic and moral highground? Hypocrit. Disgusting. Ewww.

Quote:

and while you are too lame to take other people into consideration you expect them to do everything for you.

Again, same case.

Leecher = someone who expects others to do everything for them.
You = defending leechers.

But here, you present me as someone with leeching mentality. It's a joke. Mirror mirror on the wall..

Quote:

Without people like you PuGs might actually become enjoyable again.

Oh yea?

Let's see:

You = someone who abandons PUG at every phonecall, diapers change, knock on the door, walking a dog etc. In others words, selfish, unreliable, lacking self-control, careless etc.

Me = someone who stays with the team, and dies with the team. And does best that team achieves the goal.

Guess with whom PUGs enjoy more. It is you, and people like you, why no one PUGs. We use H and H because we're tired of selfish unreliable people who lack self control and act as if 7 other people in the team are H and H whom you can ditch whenever you want and nothing happens. But hey, what do you know, these 7 other people are real.

Disgusting!

Ewww

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowhaze

I don't mind if people let the team know they have to go afk for a bit to use the restroom or deal with a kid or something, they dc (out of their control), or whatnot. Those times the people I was with had no problem with waiting for them to return. As long as they come back in a reasonable amount of time (ex. - before the mission is done). But when a person is afk for maybe 3/4 of the mission or whatever and doesn't move or say a word, then it seems more like a lazy bum who wants a free ride. That's when it gets annoying.

Exactly.

I dont remember a PUG group which couldn't wait for someone, a minute or two minutes or heck three minutes. We wouldn't even mind killing an enemy group or two. But that's entire different than someone obviously leeching or being away for long moments all the time.

Amy Awien · Nov 25, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

1) I didnt say leeching is criminal behavior.

On page 1 of this thread you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

... I see that most people here go afk and leech themselves, or are criminals of other kind, ...

"... or are criminals of other kind ..."

Quote:

If you need to take a toilet while doing 20-30min mission ...

PuG sessions can range from rather short to several hours spanning multiple missisons. I was talking about the last type of session when I said "significant duration", I thought that would be obvious. But even during short missions life can require someone's attention.

If you can not tolerate people's real life interfering with a mission you should not play with people.

Quote:

Oh? And "I have IRL so I can abandon 7 other people and couldnt care less" is not about YOU missie?

What you are saying is that people who do not cater to your desires are selfish. If something important comes up in their environment, people should be able to respond to that. If you can not tolerate such events and can not make time for them, you are selfishly absorbed with your own pleasures.

Play with H&H if you can not accept that people are people.

Quote:

How dare you say that my proposal is all about me, and present your case as altruistic and moral highground? Hypocrit. Disgusting. Ewww.

Because you are the selfish blown up narcissist ego who can not tolerate it when it turns out that other people are real people and have a life beyond seeing that your needs are met.

Again and again it comes down to you not wanting to wait a minute or two for someone's real life.

Answering the phone is not leeching.

Quote:

... you present me as someone with leeching mentality ...

You leech on other people when you can not tolerate that their life will sometimes interfere with your game and you expect them to ignore everything for you.

Quote:

You = someone who abandons PUG at every phonecall, ...

I am sorry you're so envious of people who do get phone calls and visitors knocking on their door. Trying to get even through the game is not going to bring you anything in the long run but I am sure that if you work hard on yourself, with professional help, you can have friends in real life too.

Quote:

... Me = someone who stays with the team, and dies with the team. And does best that team achieves the goal.

Ah, your ego got bruised, reality threatens your inflated self-image and now you desperately need to restore it. That is so narc.

Quote:

... We use H and H because we're tired of selfish unreliable people ...

Let me correct that for you:

Quote:

... We use H and H because we're tired of selfish unreliable people not ignoring their lives to fulfill our needs ...

Quote:

I dont remember a PUG group which couldn't wait for someone, a minute or two minutes or heck three minutes.

Ow, that must have been so aggravating for you when you feel that afk-ing for real life events deserves a /report.

Shasgaliel · Nov 25, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I will not be playing quote wars here. Anyway if someone says "later on I will be afk for 20 min since I will need to eat dinner" before we go to the mission that is really nice and I saw that often people agree on that. They plan how to do mission so that the party will not be affected. However if you go to dinner for 20 min 5 min after entering a mission without a word that is nasty in my opinion and deserves a report. Cause it is kinda obvious that given person knew that the dinner is coming and just did not want to inform the others. That is why when teaming for longer missions people ask to make sure that the people really have time. I cannot agree on 7 people being forced to waste their time and being forced to cater needs of one person. That is selfish in my opinion. However if they are asked they may agree to do that and then there is no issue at all. I think what is missing in most pugs is mutual respect. If you ask you have more chances of obtaining understanding than by requesting or expecting it.

By just expecting someone to adjust to my rl needs I do not show respect to other people. I am just being selfish.... Why because by doing that I think that MY rl needs are more important that needs of those others even though I do not know this people and I do not know their needs.

Why it is like that. Some people pay per hour for the access to internet and they have to work hard in their RL for this money. So I think rights of those people to be able to play instead of pointless wasting time and money also should be respected. So if you go for a 30 min phone call do not expect a nice welcome from person who had to work to be able to spent that time in the game...

Of course some unexpected things do happen. Guests are coming, baby is crying etc and in my opinion people tend to understand that. They need to be informed however. If someone goes afk should say a word so that other know what to do and what to expect. I see really that even in the worst pugs there is a respect and understanding when there is proper communication. I never had problems because of a phone call cause I told my teammates I be back in x min phone. If I know that call will be longer I tell them sorry I need to go, I have a call and then dc and not keep 7 other people pointlessly waiting....

I think even in a computer game people need to be respectful for others. If we make a group to do something together and you leave the group please tell why so we can wait, go back and create a new one or just move on. If you just stay there and leech and made up excuses afterwards then the report is deserved.

EDIT: I met several pve leechers myself. Mostly in DOA. They usually do not say when they go afk and just come back afterwards inventing some stories (I guess they leech on various accounts at the same time so they need to switch between them). After being rezzed they usually do not join back the team but just run to the chest and then dc. Those people exist and for them this report function would be good. I do not think anybody would report someone for going to toilet or answering a phone call if it is communicated and done in a reasonable time.

upier · Nov 25, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Life happens, I've yet to encounter adventuring session (with people) of any significant duration where there wasn't some deviation of the 'ideal' path, in whatever form including toilet breaks, during or in between missions - and usually more then once. If one is bothered by such event, one should not play with people.

When people are more aware that they play with other people, when there is more tolerance in a group, the adventuring tends to be more fun and quests and missions are generally accomplished more easily.

If one can not accept that the people one plays with are real people and not henchmen, one should not attempt to play with people and stick to the H&H. A PvE report feature will not turn real people into henchmen.

Going to the loo hurts the teams killing capabilities. Which means the team is less effective in that time. And that's what we should be looking at.
Ways to prevent the drop of the teams effectiveness.
What I am saying is that the people, who dash to the loo or go AFK for a few minutes and thus harm the team BUT not in a significant way, aren't a big enough of a reason to not have a system that would punish the people that harm the team in a significant way.
Especially if we consider how trigger-reluctant the people in PvP are when it comes to reporting.

Once you embark on a mission with other individuals - what is best for that TEAM should be looked at. And if this means reporting one's ass, then so be it.
If you can't handle that - stay in your instance!

Dmitri3 · Nov 25, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Exactly. Leechers defend leechers. There is no non-leecher or no-potential-leecher who will defend leechers.

If you support criminals you have criminal mentality.
If you support saints, there has to be something saintish in you, otherwise you would not.

It's really that simple. You can't defend a criminal and say you're not at least a potential one yourself. It's like people being against some punishments, why, because they know they might end up as a criminal so it's better to be prepared.

I can't argue with an argument like this. You sir win this thread with help of your stupidity. Next time you are accused of something, I will know that anyone defending you is a criminal, thus your defense fails.

I really feel sorry for you.

Servant of Kali · Nov 25, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

There is only one way we could solve this. And that is with the sword.

I'm tired of wasting my time talking to demons.

Avarre · Nov 25, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

There is only one way we could solve this. And that is with the sword.

I'm tired of wasting my time talking to demons.

No, Servant of Kali. You are the demons.

I don't have a view here. I just wanted to use that line.