Curse

MisterB · Feb 06, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Let the punishment fit the rules violation. Remove input from all parties involved, and force players involved to be unable to perform any action other than /dance or conga with the nearest target for x hours.

Simath · Feb 06, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So breaking the rules is ok if a conga line is involved? Makes sense..

No need to fret oh dear and beloved acquaintance of mine. I have hastily dialed the internet police hot line to report this horrid act of malicious and devious behavior. It should only be a mere matter of time before these villains are constrained and whirled away by the servants of justice.

Silverhand · Feb 06, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

But according to your logic, I have some curse words in my vocabulary that came from being printed in a dictionary... sounds like you think that's reason enough to use them. Just because the emotes can be used in a way, does not imply the game designers encourage you to do so.

I've seen it referenced as 'sandbox' play, you have some freedoms to do what you will. At least notice you cannot specifically target your taunts towards an individual, which is something you can do in other games. That is at least one restriction game designers have put in place to demonstrate they do not condone taunting. Rank showing was entirely your own interpretation; it can be used to qualify oneself for a group.

in regards to rank
i think u should check out the video anet posted for zaishen rank
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...aishenrewards/
seems to imply tahts what it was designed for

and no
knowing curse words does not give u the right to use them
i was simply saying that ur example did not fit the situation

Chthon · Feb 06, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

1. This is silly.

2. I'm amused, not angry.

3. If this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinzo7

rawr and zero did a conga line in the MAT to practice for the rawr party and tied, Euros are beside themselves with rage even though both guilds would have made top 16 anyway regardless of who won. Butthurt euros want rawr's trim removed and all 16 players involved permabanned.

...is true, then I can't see how anyone could be angry.

Master Fuhon · Feb 06, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverhand

in regards to rank
i think u should check out the video anet posted for zaishen rank
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...aishenrewards/
seems to imply tahts what it was designed for

We are arguing semantics; the word taunt has two definitions. 1) To issue a challenge 2) To insult. But just to entertain you:

You've successfully pointed out that game rules do not perceive /zrank'ing someone as taunting behavior according to sportsmanship standards. Also, if you examine the body language of the /taunt emote (hands waving over the head), the gesture does not represent the body language of someone delivering an insult, but goading you into delivering an attack (an inopportune thing to do to a corpse).

I've never been personally insulted by being informed of the ranks of the person who just killed me; in fact, I understand that my death is the most opportune time to inform me that I have been defeated by a brilliant combatant.

But most taunting rules refer to the second definition, any overlap involving insults. If zranking people is being allowed, maybe you should make greater effort in interpreting the lack of hostility that is supposed to accompany it. Leave the ego at the door in pvp, because being ranked is not the 'insult' version of a taunt.

Silverhand · Feb 06, 2009, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I never said I found gettin ranked insulting
Infact I even do it
I was just merely pointing something out about the
taunt reference
And please don't try to imply that I have an ego when u do not know anything about me
I know I'm not that good in pvp
It's y I've never been in a top 100 guild
But regardless we have gotten way off topic here

Dmitri3 · Feb 06, 2009, 04:24 AM // 04:24

How about changing the system so draw isn't allowed? Meaning not in rules, but in game mechanics. You punish one group and others will do it just to piss you off, or protest, whatever you call it. I would certainly have fun doing conga line just to show that the system is broken as hell.

Depending on rules is like hoping no one will take money out of a lost wallet.

Lady Lozza · Feb 06, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

So, let me get this straight:

Two teams, both going to make the play-off regardless of the outcome, deliberately (stop) play to "force" a draw because the game is in stalemate and neither team wants to break that stalemate because it would put them at a disadvantage for the rest of the match.

Ok, if they were both going to make the ladder anyway why not just PLAY. Why not challenge themselves by taking that disadvantage and trying to win anyway? For two guilds clearly at the top of their game I can't understand why loss of face would be considered so important.

Dmitri3 · Feb 06, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Ok, if they were both going to make the ladder anyway why not just PLAY. Why not challenge themselves by taking that disadvantage and trying to win anyway? For two guilds clearly at the top of their game I can't understand why loss of face would be considered so important.

Why should they? They both had nothing to gain and both had something to lose if they made the first move. There's no point in fighting, plain and simple.

It was the most logical solution, you can't blame them for actually doing a smart move.

Lady Lozza · Feb 06, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

What did they have to lose? They weren't going to miss out on a spot in the play-offs, and the play-offs are basically a whole new ball game.

In agreeing to do what they did they rigged the match, hence meddled with the ladder.

It does not matter why they did it.
It does not matter whether others do it.
What matters is they got caught doing it.

All in all it was a stupid move when precedent shows that Anet does NOT like players or guilds who do this. It was a stupid move when neither team had anything to lose in the match except a little pride.

Games are for fun, yes, but games have rules and you are expected to play by them. Break the rules and get caught and you have to face the consequences of your actions.

The ability to do what was done in this match should be removed from the game. But in saying that that does not mean the guilds involved should not be punished for what they did.

CronkTheImpaler · Feb 06, 2009, 06:09 AM // 06:09

sure would love to hear from the involved parties. see if they can explain this malicious and wanten act of lunacy!!!!!!!!!!!!! seriously have any of them popped on here? id like to hear what they have to say.

Cronk

Dmitri3 · Feb 06, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

It does not matter why they did it.
It does not matter whether others do it.
What matters is they got caught doing it.

They didn't get caught, lots of people were doing it and are still doing it pretty openly, it's just no one gives a shit if it's not rawr.

Oh well, I suggest you actually read their statement on it... and not just the first post: http://www.rebelrising.net/forums/vi...8 273656df870

Inde · Feb 06, 2009, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Cronk, rawr has commented on it. Through their guild site. Awowa has talked to a few people about it as well and those comments are found on the various PvP sites and guild sites. Billiard gave a run down of what happened here, with details that a lot of people seem to have missed: http://teamlove.us/guildtracks/

Sjeng · Feb 06, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

You've successfully pointed out that game rules do not perceive /zrank'ing someone as taunting behavior according to sportsmanship standards. Also, if you examine the body language of the /taunt emote (hands waving over the head), the gesture does not represent the body language of someone delivering an insult, but goading you into delivering an attack (an inopportune thing to do to a corpse).

I've never been personally insulted by being informed of the ranks of the person who just killed me; in fact, I understand that my death is the most opportune time to inform me that I have been defeated by a brilliant combatant.

I'm guessing you gloat alot over dead opponents?

Man, mAT's is srs bsns! Just gimme my keys :P

DreamWind · Feb 06, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I have to stir the pot some more here. I really don't think this is black and white as some people are saying. Hell I'd still argue nothing wrong even happened.

Here are the original rules that we know of:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Original Tournament Rules

Players/guilds are expected to not participate in any form of ladder manipulation. Ladder Manipulation is defined as any actions taken to alter the rankings or ratings of the tournament ladder that deviate from guilds actually playing and completing battles. Throwing matches or getting your opponent’s to throw them to you are examples of ladder manipulation because ratings and rankings are changed without actual game play taking place.

What they did does not go against this whatsoever as no rankings or ratings were changed as a result and no matches were thrown. An intentional draw avoids both of these.

Here is the other rule we know of:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet Rule

Players/guilds are expected to behave in a respectful and sporting manner at all times.

This raises the question, what is respectful and sporting? I sure don't think an intentional draw is unsportsmanlike. It happens all the time in other games (like MtG for example). It was clear that both teams didn't care about this match...would you rather them "fake play"? I find that even more stupid.

Lastly, you could say that Anet considers intentional drawing disrespectful or unsportsmanlike. If so...that sure isn't in the rules and there has never been a statement on it. It also doesn't respond to the point that this has happened several times before with no uproar whatsoever.

Div · Feb 06, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

What [rawr] and [zero] did is similar to playing a basketball match and sitting around for 4 quarters, neither team trying to shoot a basket. Maybe, even, both teams start running laps around the court. It's possible, then, to "draw" the game, but that sure as hell wasn't legal.

If an analogy is to be made with basketball, then it'd be more like, the baskets were both covered so that neither team could make a shot. Both teams played the first two quarters, realized the score was still 0-0 at halftime, and came out of the locker room saying "let's just have some tea instead of banging our heads against each other for nothing and seeing who can hit the last-second buzzer shot as god removes the magical cover blocking the baskets."

And plus, the precedent has already been set, with Anet completely ignoring the HB mAT ties in swiss rounds and also intentional losing in HB elimination rounds. Now, because of all the public QQing, Anet is setting a double standard, and all of a sudden changing their rules so it doesn't appear like they're not doing anything for their game.

xDusT II · Feb 06, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If an analogy is to be made with basketball, then it'd be more like, the baskets were both covered so that neither team could make a shot. Both teams played the first two quarters, realized the score was still 0-0 at halftime, and came out of the locker room saying "let's just have some tea instead of banging our heads against each other for nothing and seeing who can hit the last-second buzzer shot as god removes the magical cover blocking the baskets."

And plus, the precedent has already been set, with Anet completely ignoring the HB mAT ties in swiss rounds and also intentional losing in HB elimination rounds. Now, because of all the public QQing, Anet is setting a double standard, and all of a sudden changing their rules so it doesn't appear like they're not doing anything for their game.

I don't think the analogy really justifies ID'ing the game. While it was potentially possible for the game to end in a tie, it wasn't known for sure. The problem with your version of the analogy is said basketball game is rigged so that it is truly impossible to win - there is zero possibility for any other outcome. In the rawr vs zero game, it was likely that the game would end in a draw, but not known for certain. In this sense it is quite possible that ID'ing the game would have resulted in a different outcome than if it had been played out for it's whole length. A closer analogy would be the two basketball teams playing for half the game then suddenly deciding because the scores are both 0, no team will be able to win and promptly ceasing play.

The biggest problem I can see coming from all this is - while to my knowledge the game didn't effect the top 16 - It just as easily could have. IIRC someone from rawr/zero stated they only did rough calculations before the game and were fortunately right that it did not affect the final 16. My main concern is that without some form of punishment to act as a deterrent, many other guilds may see this as acceptable in similar situations and it would only be a matter of time before one guild got the calculations wrong and the final standing is affected somehow. So while the act in itself was harmless at the time, it came with a risk that they could have been wrong and the players took it upon themselves to harbour such risk. This is something I think worthy of punishment as guilds should not be able to potentially manipulate into their own hands on the basis of trust and responsibility. Doing so is an accident waiting to happen.

Dmitri3 · Feb 06, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

A real analogy would be: would you still bang your head against a wall even if you knew it won't break?

Onyx Blindbow · Feb 06, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

And also, relevant points about the technical aspects and tie-breaking mechanics were raised. We're aware that not everyone is satisfied with it. It's diverging from this thread's topic, so if you have some detailed, concrete, and constructive suggestions, please feel free to send them my way. I collect a lot of suggestions, but many of them are unworkable or changes that the team doesn't want to necessarily make.

Changes that the teams doesn't necessarily want to make? so a-net are more than aware their mechanic is broken yet do not wish to make changes basically

Yet taking this into account they are willing to punish to PvP guilds for "manipulating" the ladder, despite the fact that no gain was made by either team, no loss was made by either team, it did not affect the ladder standing for any of the teams and it clearly shows that something needs to be done with the game mechanic.

It's is a shame they are killing this game

Hopefully some sense will prevail and a-net will see just how far from their desired path they have strayed in all aspects of the game not just PvP

I personally hope that RawR and Zero come out of this unscathed

Amnel Ithtirsol · Feb 06, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

They did what was best for their respective guilds. Call it unsportman-like or whatever, it was competitive with regards to staying in the tournament. The fact that this type of behavior (HA) has been left unattended and unpunished by ANet in the past could have had a major impact in the player's decision to go for the draw in the first place.
It would be wrong for them to be punished in any way as ANet is entirely to blame for this fiasco. Fix the game and make the rules and subsequent consequences of breaking those rules crystal clear, ANet. And above all, apply and enforce those rules the same way for all forms of the game.