Curse

bel unbreakable · Dec 09, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

yes exploring is the best part of the game i love it
but i fear that its looked on as grind bye a lot of players these days

DreamWind · Dec 09, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When looked at as it is, GW's model isn't terribly groundbreaking. Multiplayer RPG's (not MMO's) have existed for years. I find it interesting when people say "you can pick up and play whenever you feel like!" as if it's something revolutionary in the gaming industry (I've been doing it since I picked up Mario, thanks). But it's when the add they phrase "...as opposed to WoW/EQ/genericMMO" at the end that pisses me off, since that's how all the expectations and misconceptions roll right in.

The only things that set GW apart from other free-to-play games is its PvP, the fact that it's online only, and it's wonderful optimization. The fact that all of it's expansion packs are stand-alone is also rather uncommon.

GW's model isn't groundbreaking in a MMO sense, but it is groundbreaking in a PvP MMO sense. You can't compare Mario to any MMO, but the fact of the matter is EVERY MMO from here on out has to be compared to WoW or EQ whether anybody likes it or not.

You see this is what is so ridiculous to me about the entire thing. PvP is what made Guild Wars unique as you stated (and the level system went along with that). The fact that thread even exists is an indicator that people want the entire Guild Wars franchise to be something its not. It is almost as if people bought the game expecting one thing, got something else, and now want it to be that something else they were expecting but with no monthly fees instead.

Guild Wars started as a game where level meant NOTHING (particularly because of PvP), and that was one of the major points of the game. Now it seems as if people want a completely new level system to make it more like one of those other MMOs. They want what a P2P game has without actually having to P2P, instead of wanting Guild Wars for what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You're still missing the point. "People like and want it" is nearly just as shitless as the "don't like, don't use" argument, except much more drastic in this scenario because it's concerning the leveling process (something that affects the *entire* playerbase). Like DL;DU it can be used to defend god mode, cheat codes, and any other overpowered facet you can imagine.

I agree with you about DLDU being dumb, but YOU are missing the point here. Personally I think "people like and want it" is stupid too, but the fact of the matter is MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE. They just want to have fun, they don't give a damn about balance.

Think about it...DLDU is probably the most common argument in any thread dealing with overpowered crap, because the majority just don't give a crap. It doesn't affect them in the slightest. Balance issues have always been pushed by the minority (usually the hardcores or PvP players) in any game ever made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Either way, I think you're going to have a hard time finding many being all for grind. It is indeed a very subjective term, but I don't know of anyone who'd want their time to be needlessly drawn out.

As I stated earlier, the only gain from adding grind to your games is to milk out the players' subscription fees as much as they can. It's "understandable" in p2p MMO's because it's an effective way to make more money.

I think you underestimate how much many people really enjoy grind. We say grind as if it is a bad thing, and to some people it is. But a surprising number of people are willing to put a LOT of time into it to achieve something. Why do you think all these people are PAYING for P2P grind games? Do you think they are just giving their money out of generousity?

Which leads to my point that Anet will put this into Guild Wars 2 if that is what the majority wants. They want the majority buying the expansions, and giving them what they want is the way to do it, even if that is grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoleAurow 23

Lets get back to what this thread is about please. It WAS going well...
Dont want it to get closed.

Thanks

Yea...it was going well until you entered it and started trolling.

wetsparks · Dec 09, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You see this is what is so ridiculous to me about the entire thing. PvP is what made Guild Wars unique as you stated (and the level system went along with that). The fact that thread even exists is an indicator that people want the entire Guild Wars franchise to be something its not. It is almost as if people bought the game expecting one thing, got something else, and now want it to be that something else they were expecting but with no monthly fees instead.

Guild Wars started as a game where level meant NOTHING (particularly because of PvP), and that was one of the major points of the game. Now it seems as if people want a completely new level system to make it more like one of those other MMOs. They want what a P2P game has without actually having to P2P, instead of wanting Guild Wars for what it is.

Actually I think people want Guild Wars to be more like normal RPGs, that just so happens to have the online part mandatory. My warrior hit level 20 in the Southern Shiverpeaks 34 months ago, since then I have gotten all the protector titles, made some progress on Guardian titles, got all elite skills, did a whole lot of Faction farming for all the faction titles in every many possible, and he has over six million experience from it all, and he is still level twenty, and he still has to have h/h with him in the Maguuma Jungle. If this was a normal RPG, those guys in the jungle would still be their same level, I would probably be level seventy or eighty or something, and I could just wander through the jungle enjoying the place by myself instead of having to get h/h and fight every mob or else I die.

dont feel no pain · Dec 09, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I also believe a cap of 50 would be perfect, I've played this game for a long time, at first 20 was fine but after 2 or more chars I found that 20 came too fast and too easy.

Dan Ops · Dec 09, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Official Guild Wars website, GW2 FAQ:

"How will character progression work? Will you be raising the level cap?

Guild Wars 2 will have the kind of extensive character advancement appropriate to a persistent world RPG. It is our priority to avoid forcing players into the grind-based gameplay that too often accompanies a high level cap...

...Players will be able to engage in organized, balanced PvP (similar to GvG in the original Guild Wars) without needing to first level up characters, find equipment, or unlock skills. While inside the organized PvP area, all characters will be the same power level and will have access to the same equipment."

Nothing else to say.

Longasc · Dec 09, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Ops

[I]"How will character progression work? Will you be raising the level cap?

Guild Wars 2 will have the kind of extensive character advancement appropriate to a persistent world RPG.
(...)
Nothing else to say.

You left out something. And actually, this does not answer at all if there will be a cap or how many levels there will be.

Now we can speculate what "appropriate" means...^^

http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars2/gw2faq/

"Also, to allow players the freedom to play together even if their friends are at a much higher (or lower) level, we are planning to implement a strong sidekicking system, similar to that used in City of Heroes."

The sidekick system hints at levels being important, and quite a lot of levels and not just max level 20 after 2 days.

Dan Ops · Dec 09, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

You left out something. And actually, this does not answer at all if there will be a cap or how many levels there will be.

Now we can speculate what "appropriate" means...^^

http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars2/gw2faq/

"Also, to allow players the freedom to play together even if their friends are at a much higher (or lower) level, we are planning to implement a strong sidekicking system, similar to that used in City of Heroes."

The sidekick system hints at levels being important, and quite a lot of levels and not just max level 20 after 2 days.

You're reading the wrong sentence, the second one is important. And as I've said, it makes no difference whether there's level cap 20 or 100 as long as there is no grinding for level.

Bryant Again · Dec 10, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You see this is what is so ridiculous to me about the entire thing. PvP is what made Guild Wars unique as you stated (and the level system went along with that). The fact that thread even exists is an indicator that people want the entire Guild Wars franchise to be something its not. It is almost as if people bought the game expecting one thing, got something else, and now want it to be that something else they were expecting but with no monthly fees instead.

There have been people like this since day one, and quite honestly I don't care if ANet caters to them under the one condition that the core of the game remains intact.

Examples? Allow mounts but keep fast-travel. Allow higher levels but still make the numbers and stats meaningless (well on their way with this already with sidekicking). Whether or not one has faith in them doing this is not part of the discussion.

Not only that but this thread simply asked what others would like the level cap to be. Few have been talking about a drastically changed system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I agree with you about DLDU being dumb, but YOU are missing the point here. Personally I think "people like and want it" is stupid too, but the fact of the matter is MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE. They just want to have fun, they don't give a damn about balance.

I only brought up the comparison to show how retarded it is to pull a 180 and say something horribly subjective with little basis, but you do have a point. Unfortunately it doesn't apply here.

Ursan wouldn't be as big as a problem as *mandatory grind* (please emphasize if this is not what you're talking about) would be because UB only concerns itself with those whom 1. have access to GWEN, 2. have access to the harder content of the game. You are absolutely right when you say the majority doesn't care (you'd actually be quoting me there) when it's something that only applies to a minor few.

But mandatory grind is entirely different. It's not an optional choice in play, it's something you are going to hit should you wish to progress any further in the game ("to play or not play" is not, as a dev, something you want your players to be asking very much). It's why it's such a problem in WoW through levels 40-60: it is simply the grindiest and most boring leveling bracket, hence why it sees the least amount of population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I think you underestimate how much many people really enjoy grind. We say grind as if it is a bad thing, and to some people it is. But a surprising number of people are willing to put a LOT of time into it to achieve something. Why do you think all these people are PAYING for P2P grind games? Do you think they are just giving their money out of generousity?

lol we don't play for the grind, we play through the grind because it's worth it for all of the content. Not to mention that the monthly fee brings along many many other benefits (GMs, frequent updates, more endgame, etc.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Which leads to my point that Anet will put this into Guild Wars 2 if that is what the majority wants. They want the majority buying the expansions, and giving them what they want is the way to do it, even if that is grind.

I think that if the majority in WoW wanted things so grindy we wouldn't have seen such a drastic decrease in the leveling process.

DreamWind · Dec 10, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Not only that but this thread simply asked what others would like the level cap to be. Few have been talking about a drastically changed system.

Any change to the level system is a drastic change. Probably the major unique part of Guild Wars was the fact that levels meant nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ursan wouldn't be as big as a problem as *mandatory grind* (please emphasize if this is not what you're talking about) would be because UB only concerns itself with those whom 1. have access to GWEN, 2. have access to the harder content of the game. You are absolutely right when you say the majority doesn't care (you'd actually be quoting me there) when it's something that only applies to a minor few.

I don't think Ursan was bad for any grind based reasons. People used Ursan whether they were in harder content areas or not. I think it was bad because it was stupidly overpowered and thats it. They could put it back in Guild Wars 2, and most people still wouldn't care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

lol we don't play for the grind, we play through the grind because it's worth it for all of the content. Not to mention that the monthly fee brings along many many other benefits (GMs, frequent updates, more endgame, etc.)

This is faulty logic to me. If people don't play for the grind, then why are people playing games that have a lot of grind...particularly P2P? Why would the devs put all this grind in their games...even in non P2P games? To some people, the grind is part of the content.

But this is beside the point. The point is that Guild Wars was built on a no grind no level skill system, and look what happened to it over the years. It has turned into a high grind game (particularly for titles) with people wanting a higher level system. Talk about progression.

hellhiem · Dec 11, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

ive played 36 other mmo's and quit them because they were a grind. Finally I stumbled on to guild wars, it all about showing your skills as an achievement, not level. So 20-40 would be good, I mean Unlimited? So the counters would just go on and on? Thats kind of retarded because players will then start competing with each other to see who can reach the highest level, always grinding grinding and grinding. No one wants that. SO I say 20-40 no more than 40.

l Rainy l · Dec 11, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

126 - oldschool runescape had it right

Winterclaw · Dec 11, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I've got a crazy idea: make the cap 10. If people like 20 because it's quick to attain, then 10 is twice as good as 20.

With titles and all that, you don't really need a high level cap.

Bryant Again · Dec 11, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Any change to the level system is a drastic change. Probably the major unique part of Guild Wars was the fact that levels meant nothing.

i.e. it's entirely impossible to increase the level number and still have it mean nothing.

...

Increasing the level cap could very well mean - holy shit! - increasing the level cap. It does not mean they won't change anything else. It does not mean they won't decrease character growth to make it as normalized as it was in GW1. The only thing we know is the number next to your character name will be bigger. Absolutely nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't think Ursan was bad for any grind based reasons. People used Ursan whether they were in harder content areas or not. I think it was bad because it was stupidly overpowered and thats it. They could put it back in Guild Wars 2, and most people still wouldn't care.

*yawn* Yes, we've been over this. UB - as bad as it was - was not as catastrophic as most made it out to be because it concerned itself only with a percentage of the population.

Grind is entirely different: It concerns itself with 100% of the game population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is faulty logic to me. If people don't play for the grind, then why are people playing games that have a lot of grind...particularly P2P? Why would the devs put all this grind in their games...even in non P2P games? To some people, the grind is part of the content.

Easy money for the developer. Welcome to MMO's, dude.. The more grind there is the longer you play the game. The longer you play the game the longer you are subscribed. Blizzard found out that a lot of people simply said "screw that I'm done", hence why there is far less grind. Overall, though, I think the fact that Blizzard made WoW feel a whole lot less drawn out kinda speaks for itself - that if ANet went and said "hay guyz most peeps want grind LOLS" that things would go in the shitter real fast.

In regards to those free MMO's, I'd suggest to see where Lineage I & II are most popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But this is beside the point. The point is that Guild Wars was built on a no grind no level skill system, and look what happened to it over the years. It has turned into a high grind game (particularly for titles) with people wanting a higher level system. Talk about progression.

If a small portion of the entire playerbase enjoys a certain activity, it obviously means the rest of the playerbase will enjoy said activity.......no.

DreamWind · Dec 11, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

i.e. it's entirely impossible to increase the level number and still have it mean nothing.

Increasing the level cap could very well mean - holy shit! - increasing the level cap. It does not mean they won't change anything else. It does not mean they won't decrease character growth to make it as normalized as it was in GW1. The only thing we know is the number next to your character name will be bigger. Absolutely nothing else.

Its entirely possible, but that isn't what many people here are talking about and wanting. When people talk about increasing the level cap, they mean making it harder and longer to attain that cap. They mean making levels mean something, as opposed to meaning nothing as they do now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

*yawn* Yes, we've been over this. UB - as bad as it was - was not as catastrophic as most made it out to be because it concerned itself only with a percentage of the population.

I don't think this is the case. To me it WAS as catastrophic as it was made out to be. The problem is that most people didn't realize it or even care if they did realize it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Easy money for the developer. Welcome to MMO's, dude.. The more grind there is the longer you play the game. The longer you play the game the longer you are subscribed. Blizzard found out that a lot of people simply said "screw that I'm done", hence why there is far less grind. Overall, though, I think the fact that Blizzard made WoW feel a whole lot less drawn out kinda speaks for itself - that if ANet went and said "hay guyz most peeps want grind LOLS" that things would go in the shitter real fast.

In regards to those free MMO's, I'd suggest to see where Lineage I & II are most popular.

If a small portion of the entire playerbase enjoys a certain activity, it obviously means the rest of the playerbase will enjoy said activity.......no.

You are making my points for me. Blizzard is still wrestling with exactly how much grind their game should have, but they still know it has to be on the high end of things because of P2P and because the players continue to pay for it. The problem Anet found is that their game originally didn't have enough grind...it actually had almost none at all. Then they found out that the majority disliked this (!), so they added more grind in the form of titles and HoM and other such nonsense, and the majority liked it (!). Anet realized that they added too much grind in some places, so they lessened it some (just enough to get people off their back for a little), but it is still far more grind than the game began with.

Now for Guild Wars 2 the majority is asking for EVEN more grind. They don't want to admit this, but it is a fact. If you say increase the level cap, or change the level system, you are just plain asking for more grind, because any system that is different from the current leveling system is more grind. Any rebuttal saying "I want a higher level cap but I want to still able to max as fast and easy as I did in GW1" is a cop out. Saying you want a higher level cap means saying you want levels to mean more, which almost certainly means more grind to achieve those levels.

Bryant Again · Dec 11, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Its entirely possible, but that isn't what many people here are talking about and wanting. When people talk about increasing the level cap, they mean making it harder and longer to attain that cap. They mean making levels mean something, as opposed to meaning nothing as they do now.

And you get this from where? A lot of people have simply stated that they want to see simply a higher level cap. They haven't given reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't think this is the case. To me it WAS as catastrophic as it was made out to be. The problem is that most people didn't realize it or even care if they did realize it.

Mhm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You are making my points for me. Blizzard is still wrestling with exactly how much grind their game should have, but they still know it has to be on the high end of things because of P2P and because the players continue to pay for it. The problem Anet found is that their game originally didn't have enough grind...it actually had almost none at all. Then they found out that the majority disliked this (!), so they added more grind in the form of titles and HoM and other such nonsense, and the majority liked it (!). Anet realized that they added too much grind in some places, so they lessened it some (just enough to get people off their back for a little), but it is still far more grind than the game began with.

Now for Guild Wars 2 the majority is asking for EVEN more grind. They don't want to admit this, but it is a fact. If you say increase the level cap, or change the level system, you are just plain asking for more grind, because any system that is different from the current leveling system is more grind. Any rebuttal saying "I want a higher level cap but I want to still able to max as fast and easy as I did in GW1" is a cop out. Saying you want a higher level cap means saying you want levels to mean more, which almost certainly means more grind to achieve those levels.

Wall of text invalidated by a few things:
1. You keep on saying "the majority liekz it" when you don't have a single clue what the majority wants (in fact you'll likely never know).
2. Not only that but you assume the majority owns GW:EN.
2. You don't know if the majority likes it for the same reasons you blatantly assume.
3. You continue to assume people who play P2P games want and looooooove the grind (see: pre-BC PvP rewards, leveling decreases, badge gear, etc).
4. High levels do not automatically = GRIND. Ex: Oblivion.
5. Above all else, you're comparing optional (not to mention GW's only thing even marginally close to endg-game PvE content) to mandatory grind.

Realize and invalidate these things and 'gratz cookies for u! Until then, I'm going to assume most of this was pulled out the ass.

DreamWind · Dec 11, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And you get this from where? A lot of people have simply stated that they want to see simply a higher level cap. They haven't given reasons.

And have you thought about the reasons WHY they want a higher level cap? Or perhaps they just want to see a bigger number with no other differences to the gameplay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

1. You keep on saying "the majority liekz it" when you don't have a single clue what the majority wants (in fact you'll likely never know).

Of course the majority likes it. Do you think Blizzard would add grind to their game if people didn't want to play it? Oh I know you'll respond with "thats just a P2P trick". Fine. Then why has Anet added more grind to THEIR game? Perhaps they spent all that time and effort because of the minority? Of course not...they added it because they wanted the most people possible to buy Guild Wars 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

2. Not only that but you assume the majority owns GW:EN.

No, but Anet is catering to these people who they know are more willing to buy expansions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

2. You don't know if the majority likes it for the same reasons you blatantly assume.

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

3. You continue to assume people who play P2P games want and looooooove the grind (see: pre-BC PvP rewards, leveling decreases, badge gear, etc).

Not love, but are ready and willing to play. There are a few that love though believe it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

4. High levels do not automatically = GRIND. Ex: Oblivion.

So what does it mean? Saying you want the level cap to be 10000 is irrelevent unless you are talking about how much time is required and what in game methods are used to attain it. I could say I want level 9999999 and say it takes the same time as lv20 in Guild Wars and I would look stupid. You think all the people who want higher level caps just want levels to be as worthless as they are in Guild Wars 1?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

5. Above all else, you're comparing optional (not to mention GW's only thing even marginally close to endg-game PvE content) to mandatory grind.

I posted this earlier, but to me there is no difference. Grind is grind. Anet has found that people enjoy title grinding, so it will return. In fact, it is much more likely now that Anet found people enjoy it that it will reappear in the main game of Guild Wars 2. Of course that is speculation...but what is not speculation is that all these suggestions of increasing or changing the level cap is a way of increasing grind because the current level system is zero grind. There is no way around that fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Realize and invalidate these things and 'gratz cookies for u! Until then, I'm going to assume most of this was pulled out the ass.

*tips hat*

Master Knightfall · Dec 11, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Dreamwind and Bryant are wrong most of the time, but, in this case Dreamwind is correct. Grind is here to stay, it will be in GW2, there will be a much higher level cap with a much higher skill and power system. There will be a persistant world so there will be gnawing and gnashing of teeth when people try or do kill steal other peoples spawns and there will be open pvp of some sort somewhere in the game cause it's been said there is going to be an open pvp system where everyone can participate at any level. Of course there will be organized pvp as well. There will be higher levels of soloing in GW2 as opposed to gimmick build soloing in GW1 now. There won't be 7 heroes or even 3 heroes it looks like as all that has been said is a sidekick or something of that nature you can bring on your adventures or you can leave it and get your solo self buffed up more. So, sounds like GW2 is really going to be even more of an offline rpg game that you play online as a soloist and you won't have to group for anything unless you feel like it and have the rank and the skills and the levels (as elitists will form and make it so) just like you do now in GW1. Can hardly wait.

bel unbreakable · Dec 11, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

guys lets just agree that every thing other than going from a to b can and is looked on as grind bye the lazy.

Dan Ops · Dec 11, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

126 - oldschool runescape had it right

They don't have it any more omg!?!?!

Agreed, would be epic.

wetsparks · Dec 11, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellhiem

ive played 36 other mmo's and quit them because they were a grind. Finally I stumbled on to guild wars, it all about showing your skills as an achievement, not level. So 20-40 would be good, I mean Unlimited? So the counters would just go on and on? Thats kind of retarded because players will then start competing with each other to see who can reach the highest level, always grinding grinding and grinding. No one wants that. SO I say 20-40 no more than 40.

I think you just described Heroes Ascent. For the longest time we didn't know what the top title was because it was so high, and yet people say they love this game because of the pvp and don't want it to continue turning into a pve game.