Curse

SerenitySilverstar · Feb 17, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Actually... just to be a stinker. That would definitely be their problem. If a company wants their consumers to know something, they'll make it really really obvious.

But it is obvious to me. If I want to know something, I go to the Wiki, even if it means digging a few pages deeper.

I understand people have a problem with communicating via the Wiki format, but I see that it has consolodated down into the one "place to find everything" rather than there being lots of bits being of forums, in newsletters, in game visits etc.

Putting everything in one place is simplifying, not hiding.

Inde · Feb 17, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Uhhh Serenity, not to bring this thread further off-topic but Wiki's are terrible as a means of communicating. Their search is convoluted, information from developers is buried or archived in days, a good majority of people don't even know how or the correct format of posting on a wiki.

Trying to find the latest statements from Izzy, from Regina or any other dev is nearly impossible. How is this a means of staying updated? If THIS is the "place to find everything" then it, quite frankly, fails. I should be able to go to the front page of GuildWars.com to find any large announcement, game update, network news, events and more and have it there in front of my face. I shouldn't have to "search" or "dig" for anything.

SerenitySilverstar · Feb 17, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Inde - But isn't that what you get on the front page of gw.com anyway?

I agree, a Wiki is not ideal, but at least they've made the effort to consolodate, and it's directly linkable from in game. The discussion and information on the Wiki is more indepth for those that want to go beyond the official announcements on gw.com

I don't believe an official forum (run and moderated via gw.com) is the answer either - forums can just become a cesspool of arguing and mis-information.

But yeah, getting OT

To get back on topic for the OP: I believe the GW1 team are doing pretty good discussing the upcoming updates - Linsey's a mine of information if you take the time to read her talk page. It also does get point listed on the "Wiki Updates" page here too.

You also have to understand they have limited time and resources. The more time they spend talking to the fans is less time they have actually making things happen.

RedNova88 · Feb 17, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Although I agree they should release additional information about Guild Wars 2 they just aren't up to it, and only they know why. It does irritate me that whenever Regina makes a post people tend to whip out their weapons and open fire because they didn't hear what they wanted to. Reminds me when some of the coming changes, like storage and such were announced not so long ago. It's like someone handing you a $5 bill and you shout back "NO GIVE ME A 20 INSTEAD!!". Fact of the matter is that unless GW2 is absolutely perfect the people on these forums will pick it to pieces like a wounded animal in the wild. So perhaps it's best if everyone is forced to wait until it's polished up to near perfection.

Quote:

Rofl..cool dudez. I logged onto the game the other day and one guy in guild chat asked when the release date for GW2 was and then another guy asked if GW2 was even in existence. I'm happy to know that the masses are well informed.

The troll is strong in this one.

Quote:

I don't believe an official forum (run and moderated via gw.com) is the answer either - forums can just become a cesspool of arguing and mis-information.

Agreed. Go look at the WoW forums, it's basically just a 15$ a month babysitter for kids that are tired of the game but can't quit.

Cacheelma · Feb 18, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I see. If bashing other games to make the game you like look good is your thing, knock yourself out.

It's kinda sad and pathetic though, if you ask me.

Neo Nugget · Feb 18, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Linsey is great. I believe there's a fan club in the group section to that effect.

But it would be nice if there was more information, more communication, overall. Not just from one person.

I'd join that club

I do really like the info we have been getting, even if it's very, very vague.

Skyy High · Feb 18, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I see. If bashing other games to make the game you like look good is your thing, knock yourself out.

It's kinda sad and pathetic though, if you ask me.

Bashing forums, not the game. A brief glance over the official WoW forums does nothing to dispel the notion that they are, indeed, a cesspool.

pumpkin pie · Feb 18, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

has anyone posted questions in regards to development on other live team members' talk page other then Linsey? i am sure if you do, they will answers your questions as well like Linsey does. the page is there, but everyone flood Linsey's page until she has to lock it down lol.

Lonesamurai · Feb 18, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Uhhh Serenity, not to bring this thread further off-topic but Wiki's are terrible as a means of communicating. Their search is convoluted, information from developers is buried or archived in days, a good majority of people don't even know how or the correct format of posting on a wiki.

Trying to find the latest statements from Izzy, from Regina or any other dev is nearly impossible. How is this a means of staying updated? If THIS is the "place to find everything" then it, quite frankly, fails. I should be able to go to the front page of GuildWars.com to find any large announcement, game update, network news, events and more and have it there in front of my face. I shouldn't have to "search" or "dig" for anything.

Actually there's an even greater issue...

Especially being an Elite fansite, ANet/NC Soft should be dropping you guys the press releases in email so you have the info as soon as the press does...

As an Elite site for the Game, you are a one stop shop for GW info and need that info when its first out, not secondhand from the website

Kattar · Feb 18, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Especially being an Elite fansite, ANet/NC Soft should be dropping you guys the press releases in email so you have the info as soon as the press does...

I lol'd.

8910

GrendelScout1 · Feb 18, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

So because some other game is mismanaging their own official forums, the correct answer is to not have a forum at all? I seriously hope they are a little more forward thinking than that.

I bring this up, because I think its relavent to the discussion. I'll try to keep it succinct, for those who are used to getting their news in sound byte sized portions, so please bear with.

I used to frequent the Gameamp forums, I had friends who would post there regularly. For those who weren't familiar with that site, it was acknowledged on the Guild Wars website, but it wasn't an “elite” fansite. Anyways, Gameamp no longer exists, it officially died. Granted, there were some unique factors contributing to it's demise, but one of the reasons cited was that the ad revenue wasn't paying for the upkeep of the site. In today's economy, and with the absence of new things to discuss, fewer eyeballs on the advertisements were creating a financial pressure which ultimately killed the site.

Ok, graph time. I got these from http://www.alexa.com/. You can punch in whichever sites you like however, I'm just was interested to see the traffic on the sites I would normally frequent. This pic is from a couple weeks ago, but you can get the idea of the trends in general.

Now, with all that being said, I guess, technically, it's not Anet's problem if a fansite dies. And I guess technically Anet doesn't have to care about community forums that go belly up. Not that Anet had anything invested in Gameamp, but as we see these patterns emerge, it's not unreasonable to expect that the other community outlets, “elite” or otherwise, have the ability to follow a similar path.

Anet's irresposibility/hands-off-approach when it comes to handling the forum issue places that burden onto other's shoulders. That, and being less than forthcoming about any new stuff to get excited about, oh, and the economy I suppose, all contribute towards a degeneracy of the fan forums.

Not having an official forum also causes problems because the Anet representatives get to pick and choose which unofficial forum they want to be active in. Theoretically there is no accountability, because they can choose which forums to participate in/respond to based on community mood, etc.

I'm sure there are countless other issues which can be argued, concerning the merits of an official forum. All that gibberish I just posted was a combination of ravings from a random nobody who happens to have been playing for a while, but hopefully it was still a little food for thought.

The bottom line is, is Anet effectively delivering as intended, keeping players feeling connected? My thoughts are that they aren't. If those Alexa trends tell us anything, fewer people (in general) are visting the forums, and those that do frequent these forums, for the most part, all agree that the wikitalk method of communications is garbage. Are official forums the answer? I don't know. I do know, however, that there is a LOT of room for improvement.

R.Shayne · Feb 18, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

The wiki holds information; it is not for discussion and completely fails as a medium for discussion. I will never understand why they even attempt to use it in such a way.

I don't care about GW2 information, that is 3 years down the road, and the only information I want is about the current Guild Wars 1 improvement projects.

If ANET ideal of keeping the customer feeling connected is to say, "Hey we're working on storage!" and they are excited they told us that then I am preparing myself to be underwhelmed.

How many times has ANet told us how great something is going to be, then left us in the dark, and released it only to have us looking at it asking "Is that it?" Then I look at the other game developers and think, "They got that and this is what I get?" The argument that is a free game (which it isn't) is questionable since this is a service industry (ANet’s own words) and I hope they try to remain competitive.

Tullzinski · Feb 18, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

This goes back to what regina was saying before:

"You have a small group of dedicated folks who are active, influential, and super passionate that drive community activity, and you have a much, much larger group of people who may be as passionate as the smaller group, but maybe they don't have time or inclination to participate as much as the smaller, core group. For better or worse, the small group tends to drive community discussion and draw attention to their needs, simply because they are more vocal, more passionate, and more involved."

Even if all the elite fansites (3 listed on GW.com) dried up tomorrow, they may raise an eyebrow. But those members would still be playing GW. Overall it is not going to affect them since the majority of customers fit into the bolded/underlined section above. ANET puts out a short announcement/update designed for the LARGER group in a short bite sized package under latest headlines on the main page of the GW site. It is cheaper/quicker and likely to reach way more people.

We being the small super passionate group want more info so we can dissect, comment and perhaps flame it hoping to have our desires/input implemented.

Let us say there is only 4 million ACTUAL GW Players, this site has 190000 members that is barely 5% of the community. Even if the actual number is way lower and you factor in all the other sites elite or otherwise we may reach 80/20? Perhaps it is just too time consuming for them to constantly supply us with info. Time better spent actually making more content then make changes after they release and everyone comments on it. Maybe not what we would ideally want but I guess we are stuck with it.

Sir Skullcrasher · Feb 18, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I'm sorta impressed by what A-Net is doing. Instead of not giving us any information, they give out vague information just to keep our hope up.

If A-Net didn't reassure us on GW2 being in development, I think everyone at Guru would freak out right now?

Arduin · Feb 18, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Skullcrasher

If A-Net didn't reassure us on GW2 being in development, I think everyone at Guru would freak out right now?

I surely don't need any reassurance. I'm happily playing GW1. If Diablo III launches, I'll happily play Diablo III alongside. And as soon as Anet releases info about GW2, or even releases the game, I'll happily buy and play GW2.

Kattar · Feb 18, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

I'm happily playing GW1

The people that are yelling the loudest more than likely aren't anymore. That's the main issue.

Inde · Feb 18, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

This goes back to what regina was saying before:

"You have a small group of dedicated folks who are active, influential, and super passionate that drive community activity, and you have a much, much larger group of people who may be as passionate as the smaller group, but maybe they don't have time or inclination to participate as much as the smaller, core group. For better or worse, the small group tends to drive community discussion and draw attention to their needs, simply because they are more vocal, more passionate, and more involved."

Even if all the elite fansites (3 listed on GW.com) dried up tomorrow, they may raise an eyebrow. But those members would still be playing GW. Overall it is not going to affect them since the majority of customers fit into the bolded/underlined section above. ANET puts out a short announcement/update designed for the LARGER group in a short bite sized package under latest headlines on the main page of the GW site. It is cheaper/quicker and likely to reach way more people.

We being the small super passionate group want more info so we can dissect, comment and perhaps flame it hoping to have our desires/input implemented.

Let us say there is only 4 million ACTUAL GW Players, this site has 190000 members that is barely 5% of the community. Even if the actual number is way lower and you factor in all the other sites elite or otherwise we may reach 80/20? Perhaps it is just too time consuming for them to constantly supply us with info. Time better spent actually making more content then make changes after they release and everyone comments on it. Maybe not what we would ideally want but I guess we are stuck with it.

Tullzinski, despite what I'm about to say, you made a good and thoughtful post. I'm only addressing a small argument in your post but I hope this isn't taken personally because I'm not here to attack your overall idea, but this one particular argument is old, tired and wrong. Yes, even referring to Regina's comment.

It's a statement I hear repeated constantly, Guru makes up a small portion of the community... thousands are playing the game happy and content but they just don't come on here to post it.

It's a flawed argument. Because I can immediately throw back, yes and there are thousands upon thousands leaving the game who also do not post, who also do not give their opinion a voice. These customers leave and Anet has not a clue as to why. They do not collect or gather any data for players leaving the game, they don't have any idea how many decide not to pick up their game again after playing it for just a few hours.

The only thing that speaks to an executive is sales numbers. If their numbers are still high then obviously something is still working. But if a company (the developers, the pr, the community relations, the support) cares to actually know what their players think, why their players like a game, why their players don't like a game then they can go to only one source in the hopes of improving, refining or making changes... the players who do make themselves heard.

It doesn't matter how small a number this is, if there are 1 MM people playing and only 10 players that will give their opinion this is their only course of knowing how their game is being received. Magazines and gaming news sites play a role in this with reviews and summaries of the game but any gamer knows the #1 marketing tool for games is viral and word-of-mouth marketing. The vast majority of us picked up Guild Wars on the recommendation of a friend.

So if I go to a message board and see a largely negative opinion on a game I'm not going to play that. Nor am I going to recommend it. This is why keeping your players informed and happy, those who are all ready consumers, is so vital to a developer, to a publisher. Because viral marketing is what can make or break a game.

Age · Feb 18, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I would point out that there are some peopke still buying the game or trilogy and registering on this board if you look often in the Q& A forum.

SerenitySilverstar · Feb 19, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

It doesn't matter how small a number this is, if there are 1 MM people playing and only 10 players that will give their opinion this is their only course of knowing how their game is being received. Magazines and gaming news sites play a role in this with reviews and summaries of the game but any gamer knows the #1 marketing tool for games is viral and word-of-mouth marketing. The vast majority of us picked up Guild Wars on the recommendation of a friend.

A thoughtful discussion Inde.

I'll add to it that tho viral marketing is important, I believe an opinion seen on a forum is far more complicated than whether someone likes the game or not. There are a whole raft of factors behind what someone will say: they could be a competitive plant; they could be having a bad day at work; they could be young and/or immature; they could be a lifer gamer with no perspective...the list of emotions behind an opinion is infinite.

Therefore, while it helps, a company would be doing themselves a disservice by relying on viral marketing and pandering to the fanbase - it's way too messy and gives a demographic and inflated sense of worth to a company, creating a monster that breeds contempt through successive "generations" of players.

mrvrod · Feb 19, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

A thoughtful discussion Inde.

I'll add to it that tho viral marketing is important, I believe an opinion seen on a forum is far more complicated than whether someone likes the game or not. There are a whole raft of factors behind what someone will say: they could be a competitive plant; they could be having a bad day at work; they could be young and/or immature; they could be a lifer gamer with no perspective...the list of emotions behind an opinion is infinite.

Therefore, while it helps, a company would be doing themselves a disservice by relying on viral marketing and pandering to the fanbase - it's way too messy and gives a demographic and inflated sense of worth to a company, creating a monster that breeds contempt through successive "generations" of players.

If you go to PlayNC and post a message asking for a change in the game, they will immediately tell you that they don't accept suggestions in that way and you should go to an elite fansite and post your suggestion there (Yes I did this, that's why I know this is how it works). So, Indie is right, the ONLY way to have your voice heard by the developers is to post here or another elite site.