Curse

fenix · Mar 10, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

When you are selling a usable item with this method, it is not a scam. It's simply taking advantage of greedy, stupid players.

When you are selling an item like the Crystal Snowflake, it is a scam simply because you are giving the impression that it is worth heaps, when it isn't worth anything. Can trick stupid ebay players into wasting their money. Which incidentally makes me feel good inside.

If you do this with any other item/s, like minipets or weapons, I say go for it. You're only profiting off people with too much ecto, so no loss.

Arkantos · Mar 10, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

When you are selling a usable item with this method, it is not a scam. It's simply taking advantage of greedy, stupid players.

When you are selling an item like the Crystal Snowflake, it is a scam simply because you are giving the impression that it is worth heaps, when it isn't worth anything. Can trick stupid ebay players into wasting their money. Which incidentally makes me feel good inside.

If you do this with any other item/s, like minipets or weapons, I say go for it. You're only profiting off people with too much ecto, so no loss.

This.

People who fall for this 'scam' are greedy, rich players who want to make quick gold. If they have 50e or some high amount of ecto/z keys, they should know that the crystal snowflake is not worth that much. If they think the item is that much, they're either ebayers or ignorant and careless. If they do know it's not that much and still buy it so they can sell it to the other person, they're trying to rip off that person, and deserve to lose their items. These people shouldn't be punished for taking advantage of the ignorant. They need to learn from their mistakes.

Fril Estelin · Mar 10, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

When you are selling a usable item with this method, it is not a scam. It's simply taking advantage of greedy, stupid players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

People who fall for this 'scam' are greedy, rich players who want to make quick gold.

So greed is a more important "sin" than lying? How can you forget about the initial deception, just because after it there was greed? Furthermore, how can you forget about the greed of the scammers than want to get easy free money (a lot more than what the stupid/ignorant buyer wants to make, so does this mean their "sin" is actually bigger?)?

Auron of Neon · Mar 10, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So greed is a more important "sin" than lying? How can you forget about the initial deception, just because after it there was greed? Furthermore, how can you forget about the greed of the scammers than want to get easy free money (a lot more than what the stupid/ignorant buyer wants to make, so does this mean their "sin" is actually bigger?)?

Players are forced to agree to the EULA, not the spiritual contract as laid out in the holy bible. Sinning just means you're coming out ahead - as long as you don't explicitly break the rules, you're in the clear.

Fril Estelin · Mar 10, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Players are forced to agree to the EULA, not the spiritual contract as laid out in the holy bible. Sinning just means you're coming out ahead - as long as you don't explicitly break the rules, you're in the clear.

So, unless you believe in the bible (which I don't), you can freely act upon your greed and lie? (I guess you didn't see the double-quotes around the word sin or didn't get why I've put them)

TideSwayer · Mar 10, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Here are the items I've seen being 'scammed' so far:

Stone of the Elements [Quest Item]
Crystal Snowflake [Quest Item]
Emerald Edge [a 10k skin trying to be 'scammed' for over 100e]

Any others to add to the list?

It's not so much the WTS'ers being the scammers. People can charge whatever they want for their stuff. It's those people acting in cahoots (probably just alternate accounts), with the non-genuine, inflated-price, WTB messages who sucker people in to their friend(s), the slightly-lower WTS people, who need to get the boot. Nobody in their right mind wants to pay over 100e for a 10-15k Emerald Edge. That's just trade chat spam, and should be held as accountable as local trade chat spam is. It's not the scam itself that bothers me. It's the added spam, seeing as I'm a big user of trade chat.

On a small scale, I don't mind this type of thing, as it isn't really a scam in the sense that people are losing something unknowingly. As has been said, these people are trying to make a profit just like the 'scammer(s)'. My main concern (and it's a fairly big one), is that trade chat will soon become filled with this type of nonsense. Having only one shade of pink for both the name and the message in trade chat (something that ticks me off to no end seeing as every other channel has different colors for these two items and are infinitely easier on the eyes), on top of the large amount of trade spam already, makes it enough of an eyesore trying to find something you want. I don't want to have to start manually filtering out this crap too.

I wonder if a measurable increase in this type of activity would force ANet's hand to make a few examples of some of these people (ie. lengthy ban or disabling said users' trade privileges for an extended period - not 72 hours, but WEEKS/MONTHS) to get people to tone down on it en masse? Being that this thread is practically a ringing endorsement for this type of behavior, and probably because word is getting out that people are falling for it (and yes, I've heard from people in-game who have - morons), I've no doubt seen this stuff picking up over the past week or so in the big-town trade chat. Is anyone going to deny that?

It's easy enough to get people to stop this or move to another town though, with just a little effort. If you see somebody WTS some random item for an exorbitant amount, just throw up a WTS message for that same item at a much-lower price (ie. around market value), whether you have that item or not. Also, if people see these scammers, just mass pm them with "I'll buy" with no intentions of buying or getting scammed, just to waste their time. Leave them hanging or open trade a few times and close it. I'd rather not have to resort to this though (and I've started noticing others getting into this type of 'counter' already). While effective, doing this 'counter' also adds to the spam in trade chat. It's a vicious cycle whose end result will undoubtedly end up in a worse-quality trade channel than we already have.

I think ANet will ultimately decide to nip this in the bud before too much longer, especially seeing that it's becoming a new hobby for a lot of people. I'd love to hear official word from Regina or anyone else at ANet regarding this matter. I'm sure everyone else would too. If they decide to take action, it wouldn't take very long to compile a list of names of people engaging in this.

OrionVolaju · Mar 10, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Oh, also to hop in with something else. Someone earlier said the hard part would be proving the "buyer" had no intention of buying. That would be rather easy. Send them a message saying you will sell it. They decline saying they already got it, they continue to spam the trade chat. Case proven.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 10, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

This type of scam has existed for years, not just in the online gaming community, but in many types of retail/sell markets.

One of the most notable was in the old days of the Circus Sideshow. It was known as a Barker and Shill setup. The Barker was the caller FOR the Sideshow. Everyone KNEW that he was the caller for the Sideshow. He would go on and on about what strange and amazing things he had hidden within his tents, and for a small fee you, too could share the strange, terrifying, wonder and amazement of knowing what secrets the Sideshow held. The Barker was a showman, an entertainer - he was loud, usually wore an easily recognizable, if not gaudy, outfit, and stood by the entrance of the Sideshow for hours on end constantly filling the air with promises of amazing thing within the tents.

The Shill was the Barker's partner. However, he did NOT wear a garish outfit, nor was he loud. The Shill dressed in everyday clothes, just like the patrons and visitors to the Circus or Carnival. He would spend his day wandering around, always within earshot of the Barker (which was quite easy to do, the Barker being overly exuberant), waiting to spot a customer who wasn't quite sure of what to do. The Shill, after finding his target customer, would, as any good person who had SEEN the wonders of the Sideshow, tell the patron that in all honesty, that the Barker was in no way making any false claim about what the Sideshow held. After all, he had paid to get in and see the amazing sights, and enjoyed them enough that he was going to bring a friend to see the Sideshow later.

The Shill, looking like an everyday person, was the real perpetrator. The Barker made no bones about who HE was - it was obvious that he was trying to lighten your pockets to come see his amazing, freakish wonders. The Shill was posing as just another visitor to the Circus or Carnival, and it was HIS word that the other visitors would listen to - much less loud and obnoxious than the Barker - and of course, just like them, to boot; why would another paying patron steer them wrong?

Because that was how the setup worked.

The Barker in this situation is someone selling an item for an obviously inflated price. The Shill is someone buying that same item for an even more inflated price. But, if you see both people spamming their message in the same Trade chat, it's a bit f'ing obvious as to what is going on. If the buyer honestly wanted to buy for more than what the seller was offering, they would have completed a deal already, and the Trade chat spam would cease to be.

As much as one person may find this morally objectionable or outright wrong, by whatever means, there are a few simple points that may clarify why they won't get banned:

1) Someone is trying to sell something, and ANet doesn't stop Player 2 Player trading, it's part of the game.

2) At any point in time, a person may decide not to buy something. You can't prove that they never wanted to buy in the first place. I don't care whether or not it looks or feels like a bait and switch, or Barker and Shill, or shell game scam. YOU CAN'T PROVE IT. Why? Because this isn't a Court of Law where Perjury (lying) is a punishable offense, and if you ask someone doing this whether they intended to buy, they will most likely say, "of course I intended to buy, which is why I just bought one, thank you", whether it is a lie or not. You might suspect them of lying, but unless they agree to show you in Trade that they have one they just bought (which you would have no clue if they did or did not, one of the drawbacks of hiding behind an anonymous avatar in an online game), they don't HAVE to show you anything if they don't wish to.

3) Since I brought up lying - if you can't handle being lied to, or are too ignorant, lazy, or stupid to be able to think critically and logically, you probably shouldn't be on the Internet. Hate to say it, but it's the truth. GW is an online game - we are all AGREEING to lie to one another when we log onto GW. Why? Because my name is NOT Nihilist Tiger. I am NOT a Warrior who lives in the mythical/fictional land of Tyria. I am (nice try, not giving you my real name, but this is where it should go), I live in the United States of America (that's as close as you get), I work a 40 hour work week that does NOT involve me wearing Armor, swinging an Axe, Hammer, or Sword. But, you agree by logging onto GW that I AM Nihilist Tiger who is a Warrior that lives in Tyria. In essence, you agree to to live the lie that I portray as my GW Avatar. Savvy? Since we're already lying about who we are to meet and kick ass in Tyria (and it's kind of the point of the game, yah? Whether you call it lying, roleplaying, or make-believe, it's still FICTIONAL, aka a big f'ing lie), you can't be picky about lying in general. Nor can you say that lying is against the rules, because we all lie (hiding behind our avatars in-game) to play in the first place.

4) If you don't like my stance on the issue, oh well. If you didn't want to read opinions on the topic of scams, you wouldn't have opened and read this far into the thread.

I do, however, look forward to Regina's official statement, if in fact one is forthcoming.

Caveat Emptor - The Buyer Beware. While most people are honest, some aren't. Are you willing to risk losing what you've worked for (however you got it) to someone who doesn't care, and will extort your hard earned 1's and 0's just because they want to/can? If not, don't Trade in-game.

PuppyEater · Mar 10, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

It never ceases to amaze me how much people play games to escape from reality and expect a land of fairy dust and gumdrops awaiting him (figuratively of course, there could totally be a game built around that kind of world). There is absolutely no way in hell to make a game populated by real people to be completely malicious free. Someone will always try to separate a fool from his money and from the ridiculously high amount of money this one scam was taking from people it really is just retarded ebayers who suffer as no genuine newbie would have the funds and its not likely any veteran would believe the very unbelievable deal in front of him....

pumpkin pie · Mar 10, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Yeah. I use nine accounts to do it. There's still nothing wrong with it.

then you should read the users agreement, you are soliciting (other type of solicitaion)

solicitaion - allurements - putting sometime yummy to entice people to get at it.

Fril Estelin · Mar 10, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

3) Since I brought up lying - if you can't handle being lied to, or are too ignorant, lazy, or stupid to be able to think critically and logically, you probably shouldn't be on the Internet. Hate to say it, but it's the truth. GW is an online game - we are all AGREEING to lie to one another when we log onto GW. Why? Because my name is NOT Nihilist Tiger. I am NOT a Warrior who lives in the mythical/fictional land of Tyria. I am (nice try, not giving you my real name, but this is where it should go), I live in the United States of America (that's as close as you get), I work a 40 hour work week that does NOT involve me wearing Armor, swinging an Axe, Hammer, or Sword. But, you agree by logging onto GW that I AM Nihilist Tiger who is a Warrior that lives in Tyria. In essence, you agree to to live the lie that I portray as my GW Avatar. Savvy? Since we're already lying about who we are to meet and kick ass in Tyria (and it's kind of the point of the game, yah? Whether you call it lying, roleplaying, or make-believe, it's still FICTIONAL, aka a big f'ing lie), you can't be picky about lying in general. Nor can you say that lying is against the rules, because we all lie (hiding behind our avatars in-game) to play in the first place.

You are confusing "playing" and "lie", where both involve not telling the truth, but playing is done without any kind of malicious intention, while lying has more or less maliciousness to it. And you can most of the time exploit the lie to get an unfair advantage, while it's harder for playing.

pumpkin pie · Mar 10, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

3) Since I brought up lying - if you can't handle being lied to, or are too ignorant, lazy, or stupid to be able to think critically and logically, you probably shouldn't be on the Internet. Hate to say it, but it's the truth. GW is an online game - we are all AGREEING to lie to one another when we log onto GW. Why? Because my name is NOT Nihilist Tiger. I am NOT a Warrior who lives in the mythical/fictional land of Tyria. I am (nice try, not giving you my real name, but this is where it should go), I live in the United States of America (that's as close as you get), I work a 40 hour work week that does NOT involve me wearing Armor, swinging an Axe, Hammer, or Sword. But, you agree by logging onto GW that I AM Nihilist Tiger who is a Warrior that lives in Tyria. In essence, you agree to to live the lie that I portray as my GW Avatar. Savvy? Since we're already lying about who we are to meet and kick ass in Tyria (and it's kind of the point of the game, yah? Whether you call it lying, roleplaying, or make-believe, it's still FICTIONAL, aka a big f'ing lie), you can't be picky about lying in general. Nor can you say that lying is against the rules, because we all lie (hiding behind our avatars in-game) to play in the first place.

Using a handle is not lying, its a requirement in all Role Playing Game unless you are stupid enough to use your real name. In which case, if real name were require to play an online game, this type of scam will be the least of our worries. Besides Arena Net would not allow anyone to use their real name, if I am not mistaken, cause they do not want that responsibilities. Also it can't be a lie if every one in the game already know that everyone else isn't using their real name. Its not a lie if the truth is already know. Its a lie however if you insist that your real name in the real world is Nihilist Tiger. And it is definitely a lie when you say you want to buy a Necrid Horseman (NH) at 80e on one account, while on another account saying you are selling the NH at 50e, then you carefully set up for this dumb player to talk to your other self, upon agreeing on 80e, you let go of your NH at 50e then quickly log out both accounts.

cataphract · Mar 10, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

Are there people that don't lack common sense?

Common sense is so rare it's considered a superpower.

Inde · Mar 10, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Good post Tyrael. Had no idea about Barker's and Shill's at the circus. It certainly proves the point that people can be dubbed and scammed into anything. People are afraid of missing out on that one great deal. It's why investors can lose millions if the person selling is convincing enough. Or why phishing scams can be so convincing to those that fall for them. If it's too good to be true, it usually is.

And really people, you are arguing over the "technicality" of what a lie is.

Lyynyyrd · Mar 10, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

then you should read the users agreement, you are soliciting (other type of solicitaion)

solicitaion - allurements - putting sometime yummy to entice people to get at it.

I've read the EULA several times.

Fril Estelin · Mar 10, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

And really people, you are arguing over the "technicality" of what a lie is.

Certainly not. The intention is not a "technicality", it's an important part of what makes human things what they are.

Inde · Mar 10, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

No fril, now you are justifying:

justification - A reason, explanation, or excuse which provides convincing, morally acceptable support for behavior or for a belief or occurrence.

Because it is a lie:

To lie - To convey a false image or impression; a statement intended to deceive, even if literally true; a half-truth; a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood; something intended or serving to convey a false impression

Because you said and I quote:

Quote:

where both involve not telling the truth...

Hence a lie. Hence what Tyrael said is correct.

What you are arguing over is more what "deception" is versus lying.

You sucked me into it! See! Now I'm arguing over what's a lie. BLAST IT ALL.