Curse

AnClar · Mar 07, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

Lol dont be bad.. BA was an overpowered turret build, the REAL manly rangers still out there.

Agreed. And besides...if ya want the +dmg back dump RtW for Expert Focus and switch back from flatbow to recurve. Works well.

Chthon · Mar 07, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

Then let me explain:

1. Players are abusing the hell out of it. Or rather, they're abusing the hell out of monsters not running away from it. With even the slightest amount of talent at balling the monsters (hello permasin!), it's far and away the fastest and easiest way to kill stuff. That's bad because (a) the game should not have a "best" solution like RoJ is right now; (b) it requires zero skill, tactics, strategy, or build design, which has everything wrong with it that ursan did; and (c) no matter how you want to dress it up, it's exploiting a game bug to bypass the challenge that the monster AI is supposed to pose.

2. Heroes and Henchmen die fast and horrible deaths to HM mobs packing multiple copies of RoJ. Try to finish Ragnar's HM with H+H. Bet you don't make it past the first large mob of fleshreaver hounds. Short of flagging the H+H back while you 600/smite them, or perma-farm them, or use some other gimmick that avoids a head-to-head confrontation between the H+H and the hounds, I don't think there is a way past those mobs. Because a head-to-head encounter between the H+H and the hounds always results in all the H+H dying within a few seconds because they won't flee the RoJ. There's a few monk-heavy afflicted mobs in Cantha that pose the same problem.

BrettM · Mar 07, 2009, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Then let me explain:

Thank you.

I think your first point is somewhat harsh, since the use of RoJ isn't quite that cut and dried, but I can't really argue against the basic premise. Nevertheless, it doesn't outshine some of the other powerful builds out there, like discord spam. I don't know if it really ranks with the former power of Ursan, since I never used that before it was nerfed.

I hadn't really considered your second point before. (I haven't even done Menagerie in NM yet.) However, I just finished a vanquish of Sunjiang District with a Discord H&H team. The mobs of afflicted were pretty brutal, and getting the team out of the way of RoJ in time was nearly impossible. I went through a few sweets getting that area done after wiping on the first attempt. (On the plus side, the monks toasted themselves pretty fast if I got Pain Inverter on them in time.

Of course, some blasted rit would come along and rez them ... ) So I certainly have to concede this point.

Bug John · Mar 07, 2009, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Heroes and Henchmen die fast and horrible deaths to HM mobs packing multiple copies of RoJ. Try to finish Ragnar's HM with H+H. Bet you don't make it past the first large mob of fleshreaver hounds. Short of flagging the H+H back while you 600/smite them, or perma-farm them, or use some other gimmick that avoids a head-to-head confrontation between the H+H and the hounds, I don't think there is a way past those mobs. Because a head-to-head encounter between the H+H and the hounds always results in all the H+H dying within a few seconds because they won't flee the RoJ. There's a few monk-heavy afflicted mobs in Cantha that pose the same problem.

And you're talking about skill in PvE ? I finished Rragar in hard mode with my heroes and henchmen two weeks ago, with some dp, but no consumables... If the hounds manage to cast RoJ on your bots (first mistake), and you can't move them out of there (second mistake), you really should stop asking for more challenge in pve, because it will be way above your abilities.

Rragar is one of the most difficult dungeons, but the groups you're talking about are manageable with an appropriate build, and basic micro managing, I found the difficulty was more in the large, balanced groups of Charrs.

White Halo · Mar 07, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Iterupt hench ftw lol. Ok but pvp asside I still think everyone is avoiding it cryer is an aoe with no scatter, and when mobs are balled up well in FoW (or anywere for that matter) and your team is running cryway isnt that the same. It kills just as fast if not faster then roj. If you say roj takes no effort to use then whenever you go into FoW on any of the damage dealing aoe classes aren't wouldnt that make you a hippocrate? Your basicly saying that everyone who tries to use skills that cause little to no agro is noob? Also this takes little or no skill? Dude in Pve nothing takes skill you find the best way to kill a bunch of monsters not oooooo let's make it a super duper challengeing and run in there with absolutly no aoe damage or well thought out builds and have all your heros and henchman die. Everyone that still plays the game and is flameing roj your a hippocrate b/c at some point you've used it our have been in a grp with ppl that used it or something like it. As far as the AI not running from it, b4 they nerf a skill they just buffed y not look at all the skills that dont cause scatter first and then maybe take a look at roj.

Tyla · Mar 07, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

RoJ is broken in the sense of its mechanics. AoEDots cause scatter. RoJ is the only AoEDot not causing scatter. See now?

Raul the Rampant · Mar 07, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Ok but pvp asside I still think everyone is avoiding it cryer is an aoe with no scatter, and when mobs are balled up well in FoW (or anywere for that matter) and your team is running cryway isnt that the same.

Avoiding that? Yeah, there hasn't been any discussion in other threads at all saying CoP needs a major rework, too... oh wait.

Anyway, to elaborate on what Tyla is getting at, the types of damage done by the skills that cause scatter and the that caused by CoP are different. The AoE skills that cause mobs to scatter are the ones that cause pulse damage (i.e. x damage in the area per second for x seconds... SS and VoR act in this manner without being explicitly worded as such). Mobs scatter out of these to avoid damage that would occur over the next several seconds. RoJ is the only pulse damage AoE that does not trigger this reaction, so it should be changed.

On the other hand, CoP is a one shot conditional AoE that only "pulses" if the people running it lack any bit of coordination. A mob that scatters after CoP has been unleashed would not be avoiding any additional damage, making it pointless to do so. The functionality is different, so basing changes for based on the other doesn't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

It kills just as fast if not faster then roj.

Nobody is arguing the lethality of CoP; yes it's broken, but it's a different kind of broken than RoJ is. What other pulsing AoE skills do not cause scatter? None, RoJ is the only one that doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

If you say roj takes no effort to use then whenever you go into FoW on any of the damage dealing aoe classes aren't wouldnt that make you a hippocrate?

No, because the other pulsing AoE skills trigger the scatter. They still don't take much skill to use, but at least they function properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Your basicly saying that everyone who tries to use skills that cause little to no agro is noob? Also this takes little or no skill?

No, anyone who can only succeed in killing the mindless AI by using broken skills is a noob. The scattering caused by every other pulsing AoE can be dealt with easily by a team that puts any thought into their bars.

Also, keeping all the little red dots (monsters) that remain stationary or move in rigid and predictable patrols out of that little whitish circle around that green dot (you) on the mini map does not require many skills beyond eyesight and manual dexterity in no fewer than 2 fingers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Dude in Pve nothing takes skill you find the best way to kill a bunch of monsters not oooooo let's make it a super duper challengeing and run in there with absolutly no aoe damage or well thought out builds and have all your heros and henchman die.

So wait, a well thought out build is one that consists of a tank standing in one spot while mobs beat on him/her with complete futility and are blissfully ignorant of the fact that 5 or 6 or 7 other people (or heroes) are RoJ-ing them into oblivion? That is a well thought out build? At least with the AoE skills that work correctly and cause scatter there's an outside chance the mobs might accidentally target someone they could hurt for a few fleeting seconds.

/facepalm

At least with 7 copies of CoP these mobs suffer an instantaneous end to their pathetic existence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Everyone that still plays the game and is flameing roj your a hippocrate b/c at some point you've used it our have been in a grp with ppl that used it or something like it.

Yes everyone has used AoE at some point, and most of us still do, as it remains completely viable even though it causes scatter. Now it just requires a barely thought out build instead of a completely mindless one centered around one broken skill.

If that's being a hypocrite then everyone who says incest is bad is also a hypocrite because while they are forming in the womb their genitals are inside their mother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

As far as the AI not running from it, b4 they nerf a skill they just buffed y not look at all the skills that dont cause scatter first and then maybe take a look at roj.

Again, all the skills that cause AoE damage that can be avoided over time are the ones that should and do cause mobs to scatter. RoJ should not be the only exception.

Reverend Dr · Mar 08, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

I remember when every AoE skill was broken and didn't cause scatter.

Even then at least four of the five pulses are going to hit before the AI dodge kicks in. What exactly are we complaining about?

Nessar · Mar 08, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I remember when every AoE skill was broken and didn't cause scatter.

Even then at least four of the five pulses are going to hit before the AI dodge kicks in. What exactly are we complaining about?

Pretty much QFT.

I was going to JQ w/ 3 RoJ'ers, me being one of them. By the time the AI did move, 3/4ths of their hp was gone. It's not going to be anything different with scatter. Maybe they'll move faster? But honestly they dont move any faster with other aoes <.<

Arkantos · Mar 08, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessar

Pretty much QFT.

I was going to JQ w/ 3 RoJ'ers, me being one of them. By the time the AI did move, 3/4ths of their hp was gone. It's not going to be anything different with scatter. Maybe they'll move faster? But honestly they dont move any faster with other aoes <.<

They don't move at all when there is a single RoJ, which is what is bugged with the skill.

White Halo · Mar 08, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

So ok I guess echo meteor shower is op bc the mobs have no chance of running away from the "pulse" aoe damage, but if they fixed roj and then added a knock down to it, it would be ok? B/c that's basicly what meteor shower is roj fixed with a knock down, and when does anyone just cast 1 roj on any enemy outside of UW. A roj monk is rarely even used in uwsc pugs. Even in my uwsc guild we only realy use a necro, only if nobody can run necro do we take a roj. So realy u have no argument b/c 2 rojs still triggers the mobs scatter. Sorry if this is hard to read b/c of the gramaticle errors im useing my iPod touch.

street peddler · Mar 08, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

need the scatter to at least make it semi-random not 'press button, recieve shrine'.

UnChosen · Mar 08, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Anet should just add a "this spells does not cause AoE scatter" in the description.

pOmrAkkUn · Mar 08, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I don't care about scatter or not in PvE, but I do care and I think RoJ is broken in JQ.

1 single skill can take out the whole group of NPCs that is seriously broken.

White Halo · Mar 08, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

I forgot to say this....yes a well thought out build is exactly what u said. You would be very very stupid if u dont think that perma sin is a very very clever well thought out assorment of 8 different skills this leads me to ask the question how long have u played this game? I only ask this b/c it was only 3 years ago maybe that shadow form was being experemented with. I know this b/c it was my old guildy who started it by trying it out as a runner in gvg as an experement. His name was Socom fanatic and doesnt play anymore but I can give u the exact build he started with. So dont say that comeing up with a build that can tank in a game that wasn't meant to be tanked in not creative. And also does nukeing in any game ever take any kind of skill? The answere is no. Ive nuked and tanked in high end raids in wow, and everquest. Its all the same.

Chthon · Mar 08, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Iterupt hench ftw lol.

For one or two copies of RoJ, yep. For a half dozen different monsters with RoJ, interrupts aren't going to cut it. (Though I half-wish we had the old Xinrae's Weapon back.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

I finished Rragar in hard mode with my heroes and henchmen two weeks ago, with some dp, but no consumables... If the hounds manage to cast RoJ on your bots (first mistake), and you can't move them out of there (second mistake),...

Rragar is one of the most difficult dungeons, but the groups you're talking about are manageable with an appropriate build, and basic micro managing, I found the difficulty was more in the large, balanced groups of Charrs.

I did not say they're impossible with H+H; I said that they're impossible with H+H unless you use some sort of gimmick to avoid a direct confrontation between the hounds and the H+H. And, by the sound of it, that's exactly what you did. ("If the hounds manage to cast RoJ on your bots..."; "manageable with an appropriate build...") That works, but that's not how it should be. Tank-n-Spank, 600-smite, perma-sin, terra-tank, etc. are degenerate playstyles and we should not have mobs that force players into using them to get by. Every mob should be beatable in a straight-up fight with the H+H. The hounds aren't. The fact that you can avoid a straight-up fight and complete the dungeon does not negate the problem.

Ragnar HM was not terribly hard before the RoJ buff. It remains not terribly hard for all-human teams who never take more than 1 pulse worth of damage from RoJ since they've got the good sense to move out of it. It should not be so dramatically harder for H+H users simply because of one changed skill.

The AI should be fixed so that heroes and monsters step out of it as quickly as a human would. End of story.

(Also, I call bullshit on:

Quote:

and you can't move them out of there (second mistake)

Unless you're using a keyboard macro, I find it very hard to believe you're able to flag move the H+H fast enough that they haven't lost >50% hp to the first round of RoJ, or that they can survive the second round 10 sec later. Keeping the hench free of one or two copies of RoJ with flagging is believable; avoiding a half-dozen is not.)

ele pl · Mar 08, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

omfg guys why you srsly want to nerf Roj, for the purpose of JQ. If Roj would be nerfed, people will get back to bombers. Even more, bombers even now are superior to roj in some way (bigger dmg, harder to heal, faster). The only advantage roj has over bomber is that it does not requie dying, and it has kind of support (like healing, removing hex/conditions and so on). If thats a problem, why just not add "Your other non-smiting skills are disambled for 10 seconds", or "Your all skills are disambled for 5 seconds". Whatever, you got my point.

GourangaPizza · Mar 08, 2009, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Change RoJ to half casting range. That will be better than implementing an AI scatter.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Halo

Its all the same.

That's the exact same answer to Tank'N'Spank. The only part of SF 'Sins that is a staple is Shadow Form and Deadly Paradox. And when you've not got consumables, Glyph of Swiftness. The rest is down to you and will only add to defense if you decide to use Earth Magic. It's not a well thought out build (and 3 years ago SF wasn't maintainable...) at all, and if it was, do I get a medal for changing a few skills on an Obsidian Tank or making my Ranger an Obsidian Tank for the same reason?

Quote:

So ok I guess echo meteor shower is op bc the mobs have no chance of running away from the "pulse" aoe damage, but if they fixed roj and then added a knock down to it, it would be ok?

Yes, it would. Want to know why? Because part of the mechanics of Meteor Shower is that it knocks them down on each part of damage. The only thing then would be that RoJ would be overpowered by quite a bit.

Snow Bunny · Mar 08, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Enjoy trying to balance PvE.

People will tackle PvE like they do WoW - lots of buffs, tankn'spank.

The Imbagon, for all its problems of "balance", allows a party to negate traditional notions of PvE tactics.

You can't balance PvE - there will always be a foolproof way of beating it. The initial builds for DoA proved that overwhelming force will lead to players using as much defense as possible why abusing amazingly powerful spells.

I like RoJ - they took a useless skill, and buffed it in an interesting way.