Curse

Improvavel · Mar 07, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I don't think that's what we're asking here. Sure these changes would draw me a bit more back into the game, but it's more about maintaining it, keeping it to what it once was, and with chance improving it.

Thing is you, as everyone else in here, are pretty much just talking qualifiers. No hard data, just perceptions and opinions.

You say the game isn't challenging you or isn't challenging anyone. Your opinion and perception.

I also feel most of the PvE game isn't challenging and I can breeze through it. That is my opinion and perception.

But I can still hear people asking for help to do stuff I'll yawn and they aren't new players.

Veterans perception about the difficulty of stuff they already beat can be a bit biased

My girl and I keep telling to you each other : "Remember how hard this used to be?"

So, how many PvE hours do you have?

Quote:

I don't think you even know why I brought those games up.

Can it be because you like to play games?

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That's usually the result when you nerf overpowered crap.

Or just diminish the power of skills in general. I don't see why slow down kill speed equals a good thing immediately.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 07, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Seriously you'd figure after 32 pages of rambling on about #4 in 4thvariety's post, the discussion would continue onto #5.

There is no use bickering between the select few that is going on because Anet has provided you with a game like in diagram1. The game provides you with alternate levels of difficulty throughout the game up until point #4, at which point the game becomes easy and some farm NPC or grind for titles, some quit playing, and some move onto point #5(PvP).

The stabbing still currently going on here is trivial, you are asking for Anet to alter parts of the game they have created, because you are still playing at point #4 yet all parts of the game relate to a decent game like in diagram1.

Progress the conversion or close the thread. I'll do it for you though.

The scale in which we can base our conclusion is rather lop sided, given the scale is so one sided because the majority is still at point #4. AI(very static)vs human input(dynamic).

Here's the conclusion, if the majority of the player base didn't stop at point #4.
You'd have a healthy point #5 and the PvP portions of the game would be healthy and populated. Overall if that was the case you could say the majority doesn't suck.

snaek · Mar 07, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

^misinterpretation; point #5 is not pvp.

and point #4 is way lower in reality than it is in that chart. that chart is supposed to resemble the "standard." unfortunately, gw does not meet that "standard".

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvavel

Thing is, if you beat Part X of the game, you will be able to beat Part X of the game again, by repetition of the same strategy.

repetitive gameplay is usually a result of simplistic gameplay. great depth can allow for great variety.

Improvavel · Mar 07, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Here's the conclusion, if the majority of the player base didn't stop at point #4.
You'd have a healthy point #5 and the PvP portions of the game would be healthy and populated. Overall if that was the case you could say the majority doesn't suck.

How many RPGs do you know that are best known for PvP?

Do RPGs generally attract PvP minded players?

I think people are reading this back to front.

GWs is successful and large because it has a PvE side. The PvP while good, doesn't have enough modes to attract casual PvE RPG players and make them into PvP players.

Strip the PvE to a bare minimum and invest in PvP and the game will have quite a smaller player base, unless the PvP is a) really good and b) need more types of PvP, including bigger random teams.

GW isn't a PvP game. GW isn't PvE game. At this moment, there are 2 GW games - GW PvP (and closer to GW GvG) and GW PvE.

Saying that the community sucks because it plays PvE and aren't interested in playing PvP, its saying everyone that play games but not vs other humans suck.

Bryant Again · Mar 08, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Thing is you, as everyone else in here, are pretty much just talking qualifiers. No hard data, just perceptions and opinions.

Uh, what?

Here's your hard data: PvE skills, consumables, and benefits gained from titles all make the game less challenging, with effects ranging from minimal to drastic.

That's what we've been talking about for the longest time. Not only how the game became far easier not just for us, but for everyone. I'm not disappointed with the learning curve in a game unless it's stupidly short, much like what happened in Guild Wars with the introduction of all this junk.

If the game is too hard for someone, they should look to improving themselves through Normal mode. If even that is too hard for them it should be looked into perhaps providing an easier difficulty (never a bad move). You don't make the entire game easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Can it be because you like to play games?

No. I brought those games (and many others) up because of what they do with their difficulties, how they try to keep you on the tracks of the foundations of the game, and how they remind you that you're playing the game on an easier difficulty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Or just diminish the power of skills in general. I don't see why slow down kill speed equals a good thing immediately.

Because the kill speed wasn't reduced via simply lowering the health of the mobs.

Also note that foes taking longer to kill can lead to more stressful situations and rationing of resources, but it has to be implemented appropriately and in the right fashion. NOX is a pretty good example of it being done badly.

DreamWind · Mar 08, 2009, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Thing is the only way to make it deeper is to make it continuously challenging.

Guild Wars is continuously challenging...in PvP. As for PvE I somewhat agree that it is hard to make continuously challenging, which is why you make the game so that the difficulty goes from easier to harder (balanced) and your difficulty settings make sense (hard mode). In Guild Wars both of those don't work right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

When people start this thread, and you included, say that some players aren't supposed to play HM and some of the rewards they achieve are undeserved and that is a reason to remove consumables and PvE only skills, it gets a bit hard to dissociate those things.

Which is true. I don't care about the rewards but a lot of others do. The problem is we have a culture now where everybody who cares about rewards feels they must use the inbalanced farming stuff to get these rewards. This leads to the problem of rewards required much less skill to obtain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

As loads here will state, they dislike grind. They play GW because grind was small.

But then if we talk about reducing the time needed, by usage of powerful skills and consumables, people complain because what used to take hours, now takes a fraction of that time.

Is grind bad or not?

It is bad, but the problem is there are a lot of people who like to do it. But that is another discussion. Basically the idea is to reduce grind (mostly mandatory grind) without breaking the game balance to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You cant ignore neither the veterans or the new players.

The idea isn't to ignore people...the idea is to listen to your more experienced players (and particularly your better players) about game decisions. Leaving this into the hands of newbs leads to disaster in the long run. I suppose the problem with Anet's model is that they are more inclined to listen to newbs...but thats another discussion as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

After you finish PvE and if you want to keep playing PvE, what is left is repetition.

PvP the way it was meant to be. If you want to keep playing PvE well...

...Ok time for me to go on an off topic mini rant. Here it is: Repetition in Guild Wars is the stupidest thing there is. The only reason it exists is because ANet has tried tons of halfassed ways to turn their PvP game into a true RPG with horrible results. /endrant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

How many RPGs do you know that are best known for PvP?

Do RPGs generally attract PvP minded players?

I think people are reading this back to front.

You do know the game was built as a PvP game right? The problem here is that a PvP game attracted so many RPG players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Saying that the community sucks because it plays PvE and aren't interested in playing PvP, its saying everyone that play games but not vs other humans suck.

Honestly that is probably pretty close to true. I could easily argue that anybody who doesn't PvP in Guild Wars sucks at Guild Wars. Nothing against those players but it is probably correct given the context of this thread.

Ok at great risk of turning this into a another PvE vs PvP thread, screw this let me say how I really feel now:

I am saying right now that any attempt to teach players anything in Guild Wars that doesn't teach PvP is worthless as far as skill level is concerned. I know because playing the game for over 3 years I can farm any PvE area in the game but I would probably be farmed in PvP because I haven't played it with any seriousness in over a year. This isn't even close...PvP is how skill is determined in Guild Wars and its time we accept that and move on. The reason the majority of the community sucks is because the majority of the community is too busy farming PvE instead of getting skill in PvP.

Grj · Mar 08, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This isn't even close...PvP is how skill is determined in Guild Wars and its time we accept that and move on.

Funny that, alot of higher up PvP players only consider the highest ranks of the gvg ladder are the only ones that have skill. Anyone else is either a Sh***er/RA scrub or a HA superstar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The reason the majority of the community sucks is because the majority of the community is too busy farming PvE instead of getting skill in PvP.

A message to people on this crusade, its time you and others accepted some people rather play/farm PvE, accept it and move on.

RedNova88 · Mar 08, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

You do know the game was built as a PvP game right? The problem here is that a PvP game attracted so many RPG players.

Do keep in mind it was never designed solely for PvPers. It was designed for both ends of the stick, considering all the work they put into Prophecies and other campaigns. Grind is bad in my own opinion, but some people enjoy it, don't know why but they do. On the other hand, one could argue that grind is fine as long as it's fun for the majority... But it rarely if ever is. Sometimes I think Anet listens to their community too much, and caves to certain things. Is it really true that titles were only added because people were begging for something to soak up their time? I mean, when you look at Luxon/Kurzick, Lightbringer, or any faction based title it pretty much shouts "HEY! I'M NOT FUN TO DO!" The only logical explanation is that Anet threw them in to keep the more hardcore folk quiet and busy. It's hard to appeal to a broad audience of people without it blowing up in your face.

Quote:

Funny that, alot of higher up PvP players only consider the highest ranks of the gvg ladder are the only ones that have skill. Anyone else is either a Sh***er/RA scrub or a HA superstar.

Yeah, fame does that to you. If you actually want to call it fame anyway. I like to call it "Hi, I'm compensating for a flaw in my own life so I'm a D-bag online."

Improvavel · Mar 08, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Uh, what?

Here's your hard data: PvE skills, consumables, and benefits gained from titles all make the game less challenging, with effects ranging from minimal to drastic.

That's what we've been talking about for the longest time. Not only how the game became far easier not just for us, but for everyone. I'm not disappointed with the learning curve in a game unless it's stupidly short, much like what happened in Guild Wars with the introduction of all this junk.

If the game is too hard for someone, they should look to improving themselves through Normal mode. If even that is too hard for them it should be looked into perhaps providing an easier difficulty (never a bad move). You don't make the entire game easier.

No. I brought those games (and many others) up because of what they do with their difficulties, how they try to keep you on the tracks of the foundations of the game, and how they remind you that you're playing the game on an easier difficulty.

I would be much more sympathetic with that kind of logic if the game had a Hard Mode from the onset.

If you want to bash GW for becoming (or trying to) something it wasn't originally designed, then bash if from stopping to be a PvP game with a small PvE introduction, to a much larger RPG PvE game.

PvE-only skills didn't ruined HM because PvE-only skills (or when you stopped having 3 and went to 23) came hands-to-hands with HM.

You can say that HM was supposed to be hard, but maybe that wasn't what Anet wanted.

So you can complain about Anet calling their "cat" a "dog", but you cant tell them they changed their game philosophy because of that. They changed it when they though it was better for them if GW was a PvE game, either primarily or additionally.

Maybe they call it HM to make people feeling better. They could have called it something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The idea isn't to ignore people...the idea is to listen to your more experienced players (and particularly your better players) about game decisions. Leaving this into the hands of newbs leads to disaster in the long run. I suppose the problem with Anet's model is that they are more inclined to listen to newbs...but thats another discussion as well

I don't think they listen to newbs. They listened to their wallets.

Quote:

I am saying right now that any attempt to teach players anything in Guild Wars that doesn't teach PvP is worthless as far as skill level is concerned. I know because playing the game for over 3 years I can farm any PvE area in the game but I would probably be farmed in PvP because I haven't played it with any seriousness in over a year. This isn't even close...PvP is how skill is determined in Guild Wars and its time we accept that and move on. The reason the majority of the community sucks is because the majority of the community is too busy farming PvE instead of getting skill in PvP.

I'm saying the same, except I don't believe you can force people in to playing PvP. You can't force them.

PvPrs might be sad and angry, but the game isn't about only PvP anymore.
They can be angry at PvErs for that, but it was Anet decision, not PvErs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

Is it really true that titles were only added because people were begging for something to soak up their time? I mean, when you look at Luxon/Kurzick, Lightbringer, or any faction based title it pretty much shouts "HEY! I'M NOT FUN TO DO!" The only logical explanation is that Anet threw them in to keep the more hardcore folk quiet and busy.

Missions with books and vanquishes are much more appealing now and repeating them, especially when helping someone gives something back to you. The Luxon/Kurzick still takes too much time though.

the_jos · Mar 08, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

GWs is successful and large because it has a PvE side. The PvP while good, doesn't have enough modes to attract casual PvE RPG players and make them into PvP players.

Strip the PvE to a bare minimum and invest in PvP and the game will have quite a smaller player base, unless the PvP is a) really good and b) need more types of PvP, including bigger random teams.

I think you are right about the success of GW linked to PvE.
And also on your assesment on PvP.

Most PvE players will remain there except when there is some change in PvP:
- short time to enter
- relatively short matches
- not too depending on team strategy or the match must have easy to understand concepts
- posibility to win even when not being a very good player

To be honest, I think A-net is partly to blame for the lack of new blood in PvP.
JQ and Asp were dead for a very long time. JQ was mainly 'played' by explorers and some assassins wanting to spike explorers. Aspenwood did have some players, but also a fair amount of explorers. There was no new PvP content introduced in NF.
But it's also the players. Only a relatively small group is interested in high end content and farming. The rest just enjoys the story, spends some time here and there and don't even know there is this thing called PvP.
And when they find out they get in RA only to be slaughtered time after time and bitched at because they are 'noobs'. Finally they get their consecs and get to TA. Only to be refused in most teams because of failing builds.
Somehow they manage to cross that bridge and find themself in HA. Hello rank discrimination and spike damage. Starters don't have 123spike Vent, no way of telling when and how to pre-prot. So it's failing over and over and over and over agian.
Those players will never get a team together in their guild for GvG. Or just once, to fail miserably and never play it again. In AB they will be refused because of bad builds (no telling how/what to improve, because getting R2 Lux is more important than helping someone out). So all they have is JQ and Asp for PvP experience. Because those areas are relatively easy, no people spying on their builds and (according to what I've read) half of the team is leeching anyway.

And that's partly because no-one gives a sh*t anymore, except for their own titles and success.

And that brings me back to the original intend of the thread, is there a way to improve this?
I really don't know anymore.

DreamWind · Mar 08, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

A message to people on this crusade, its time you and others accepted some people rather play/farm PvE, accept it and move on.

I've already accepted that...but it is time for others to accept that those people are going to suck more than the ones that learn from PvP. This thread is about why the community sucks after all...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

Do keep in mind it was never designed solely for PvPers. It was designed for both ends of the stick, considering all the work they put into Prophecies and other campaigns.

No but it was designed for a PvP endgame not a farming/grind/title/reward endgame. And have you played Prophecies? You do realize the entire game was designed to lead into PvP right? (desert missions, favor, lv cap, normalized equipment etc etc) Hell the game didn't even have endgame rewards until recently because PvE rewards weren't the point of the game back then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I don't think they listen to newbs. They listened to their wallets.

I know. Here is the problem...what if their wallet told them to add god mode to the game? Would they do it? I'd say if they did they were an awful company regardless of how much money they made from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I'm saying the same, except I don't believe you can force people in to playing PvP. You can't force them.

PvPrs might be sad and angry, but the game isn't about only PvP anymore.
They can be angry at PvErs for that, but it was Anet decision, not PvErs.

I know. I really hate the word "forced" to PvP though. Nobody is or ever was forced. You are basically saying you shouldn't be forced to PvP in a PvP game, which is like jumping into a swimming pool and saying you shouldn't be forced to swim. Fortunately for you GW isn't a swimming pool anymore...its a kiddie pool.

Fril Estelin · Mar 08, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

IThis thread is about why the community sucks after all...

(EDIT: I don't know if you realise it, but your posts are quite condescending to people who are not playing the game mainly for "skill" but other kinds of fun, treating them like "kids" with a swimming pool of little depth is extremely arrogant of you, do you know all these people?)

Now may be a good time to repost the OP (where I intentionally left the question of "if the community sucks, why is it?"... unless I've written something in that way and didn't see it?), please (re)read it carefully:

Quote:

Disclaimer 1: leave out flaming out this thread, only post if you've read all the posts in the thread and write carefully yours. Please.

Disclaimer 2: I'm not flaming anyone, not attacking anyone, I'm simply asking questions with the genuine intention to contribute to what I believe is an important topic. (I personally know people who're great at teaching how the game works)

The title summarises an idea very wide-spread that you can often read on Guru. This thread's purpose is to question and challenge this idea:

1) Are GW players really that bad?

2) Could it be that they haven't been taught how to play the game correctly? Maybe they missed resources like GW wiki, PvX and Guru (without even going into the "cookie cutter build" mentality)? Or they didn't have the time, given that it's a game and they don't want to invest much time in it?

3) Isn't it rather so-called "good players" that are bad at teaching how the game works? (not helped by lack of in-game good tutorials on many aspects of the game)

This thread may even lead us to the old-and-classic discussion on "skill" and "noobs" (as opposed to "newbies"). I guess. But I wonder if people can be critic of themselves and their approach and go beyond such prejudiced views... unless it's completely true of course!

DreamWind · Mar 08, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

(EDIT: I don't know if you realise it, but your posts are quite condescending to people who are not playing the game mainly for "skill" but other kinds of fun, treating them like "kids" with a swimming pool of little depth is extremely arrogant of you, do you know all these people?)

I'm sorry if I come off that way but I am speaking truth here. Chances are if one of the reasons you play a game isn't to get more skilled, than you aren't going to get more skilled. People who play for skill will almost always be more skilled than those who play for fun.

The swimming pool example makes perfect sense. There is a shallow end and a deep end and most people have chosen to stay in the shallow end of Guild Wars. If you don't enter the deep end you will never learn to swim and your skills will never improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Now may be a good time to repost the OP (where I intentionally left the question of "if the community sucks, why is it?"... unless I've written something in that way and didn't see it?), please (re)read it carefully:

Your questions have already been answered.

Fril Estelin · Mar 08, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm sorry if I come off that way but I am speaking truth here.

And so am I.

Quote:

Chances are if one of the reasons you play a game isn't to get more skilled, than you aren't going to get more skilled. People who play for skill will almost always be more skilled than those who play for fun.

Which is not related to what I said: your tone is condescending and arrogant, this has nothing to do with skill.

Quote:

The swimming pool example makes perfect sense. There is a shallow end and a deep end and most people have chosen to stay in the shallow end of Guild Wars. If you don't enter the deep end you will never learn to swim and your skills will never improve.

Your example can be moved upsite down: most people who mainly experience the game mechanics part of GW are in the shallow part of GW, ignoring the rest. I wasn't making a point here btw, simply pointing to the fact that your statements are not "truth", only very relative opinions.

Quote:

Your questions have already been answered.

No it hasn't. As pointed above, there's no simple "truth" or a Yes/No answer here. And if it was only about that, don't you think I'd have asked for a poll?

If it wasn't for you, Bryant Again and Improvavel deviating from the main thread direction, there'd either be useful contributions or silence.

This thread was supposed to be "not Yet Another Thread on Skill", but something different around the idea of guiding players, teaching tools, new ideas.

Bryant Again · Mar 08, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would be much more sympathetic with that kind of logic if the game had a Hard Mode from the onset.

Right. Now that we *have* it all that crummy stuff can go away now.

I would be much more understandable if HM didn't exist - it does. The OP stuff doesn't need to exist anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

PvE-only skills didn't ruined HM because PvE-only skills (or when you stopped having 3 and went to 23) came hands-to-hands with HM.

Do you mean they, along with consets, made it balanced?

If such is the case, that's not essentially the point of higher difficulties: it's *knowing* you're going against more stressed odds and succeeding against them. If you don't want that then you can stay in the less stressful difficulties.

Besides: I still don't consider it OP. We're still zounds smarter than them. That's why any boost the monsters get is actually them trying to be as good as us.

snaek · Mar 08, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by the jos

And that's partly because no-one gives a sh*t anymore, except for their own titles and success.

it makes me wonder why simply rewarding fa/jq better brings in more people. are they only playing it for the reward? not because it is a fun game mode?

honestly, if [rawr] told me that the only reason they do gvg is to win gold trims, then i'd probably lose all respect for them.

the_jos · Mar 08, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

it makes me wonder why simply rewarding fa/jq better brings in more people. are they only playing it for the reward? not because it is a fun game mode?

honestly, if [rawr] told me that the only reason they do gvg is to win gold trims, then i'd probably lose all respect for them.

A large part of the increase in popularity of both JQ and FA has to do with the increased reward and the nerf of the old (H)FFF .
Before the increase the best way on Kurz side was (H)FFF. By far. People wanting to max a title for KoBD track would probably take this one.
That one was shattered. The Luxon part of the game offered a less benefitial (H)FFF, so many players on that side would either play AB or do the quest where you have to kill some npc's (forgot which one, never did it for this reason).

What the change did was forcing Kurzick players out of HFFF, which was also a very good money maker when taking leechers.
The best posibilities to gain faction became either vanquishing or playing the factions PvP missions.
The advantage of vanquishing being getting loot, the advantage of PvP gaining balth faction.
By 'forcing' the kurzick players to the competitive missions and AB A-net increased the popularity of them.

When comparing JQ and AB (I'm less familiar with FA) the huge advantage of JQ is (or was, been about 2 months since last play) the huge amount of faction that can be won there. It's a more relyable source than AB, the only real problem would be a very bad opposing team that could not recap shrines.
Other than that it's a constant flow of npc's giving +10 balth/lux/kurz.

Sure it is a fun game. Take JQ again. You could take your necro, blow yourself and everyone else to bits and get faction while doing that. Awesome. Oh, take a RoJ monk and people will love you. Splinter barrage? Sure, bring on more.
It's.... well... PvE and you get faction for it. Isn't that lovely?
But take away the reward and it people won't be motivated to play it anymore.
There is no fun in blowing up npc's hundreds of times (well, some farmers seem to enjoy that, but they get loot). Change the game so players will only get faction from human players and the areas will be dead again soon.
Why? Because you can't RoJ nuke a player with more than 2 braincells more than two or three times. Then (s)he will just step out and .... well... RoJ doesn't work that well when people are not standing in it. The necro bombers? Sure, those would be annoying. But when you blow yourself up and only get +10 faction, well, that's not so much fun. People don't do such things in RA or AB very often because it's not working. So the area will be like RA with less reward. People will shift to AB or vanquishing for Lux/Kurz and to AB/RA for Balth.

This has to do with the fact that FA and JQ need titlehunters. Even AB needs them up to a certain point. They are active, play a large amount of time and are willing to do the same thing over and over again, keeping it populated.
If teams ain't forming in 10-15 mins in FA and JQ people will leave the outposts again, specially if they remain as seperated as they are now (several euro districts, US, other regions). Why wait on a game that might never start.

But my general impression of JQ and FA is that a fair amount of the regular players are mainly playing for the reward and less for the fun. Titlehunters.
Nothing wrong with that, but change the reward and they might go somewhere else. They don't care about PvP, they care about faction.

The casual players will enjoy those kinds of play from time to time.
But when teams ain't forming fast enough or the experience difference gets too great casual players will not play it. There is no fun losing about any battle in TA with your PUG hoping to meet an even worse PUG sometime to get one more win. Some dedicated players will do that, the rest will go back to PvE and keep playing that. It's also not fun to wait half an hour for a fight to start (that was happening on some exploration evenings with my guild in JQ). PvE players could have saved the earth a couple of times by the time they learned to play JQ a little (not concidering wiki and other players as teachers) just because of the waiting times.

But then, I could be completely wrong and many people are actually playing JQ and FA mainly for fun and not for rewards.
But the last time I played there the comments of players surgested otherwise.

DreamWind · Mar 09, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Which is not related to what I said: your tone is condescending and arrogant, this has nothing to do with skill.

People who speak a lot of truth sound arrogant to those who don't believe them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I wasn't making a point here btw, simply pointing to the fact that your statements are not "truth", only very relative opinions.

It isn't an opinion. The majority of players choose not to partake in the most skill intensive portions of the game for any good amount of time. We know this to be fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

This thread was supposed to be "not Yet Another Thread on Skill", but something different around the idea of guiding players, teaching tools, new ideas.

So what have you learned about your original questions that hasn't already been said?

Improvavel · Mar 09, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Besides: I still don't consider it OP. We're still zounds smarter than them. That's why any boost the monsters get is actually them trying to be as good as us.

Some are quite retarded either in NM or HM. Look at aataxes. Powerful beasts of destruction. What can they do against conditions, enchantments, weapons of warding or shouts? Nothing.

Buffing stats in monsters will only make us, that are smarter then them, abuse their fails.

Why bother try to match them play for play, if their "reactions" are faster, their skills and spells do more damage, they have better energy gain, they are better in everything that is a stat?

When they are like that, you attack their weaknesses - the fact they don't know what is happening. So you put a tank in front of them, let them waste themselves against it, while beating the shit out of them. Boring, simplistic but brilliant versus AI.

Even GvG players do that, either when they come to play PvE or when the NPCs in GvG do more damage than they do!

Before the advent of PvE only skills, ursan and consumables, tank-and-spank variants were the mainstream.

It would still be fun to see if a balanced team, like the ones in PvP, can do NM (HM I guess is out of the question) DoA, without PvE skills, consumables and titles. And if they can, then a team with AI heroes mixed in the bag.

The main problem of consumables and PvE-only skills is that they can be used outside HM and NM late/elite areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

If it wasn't for you, Bryant Again and Improvavel deviating from the main thread direction, there'd either be useful contributions or silence.

This thread was supposed to be "not Yet Another Thread on Skill", but something different around the idea of guiding players, teaching tools, new ideas.

We already have the "wikis". We have forums. People that want to learn can educate themselves.

The few I know from the game, I learned on my own, using my own experiences, wikis and the forums.

The only additional thing you can do is teach in game.

Some, as long as you are polite, will hear you right way. Others will think you are full of BS.

The better way to teach both groups is Always Succeed when someone ask for help. You do that and they will think "That guy/girl knows what s/he is talking about". They will be a lot more ready to hear to your suggestions.

I find PvE-only skills and heroes very useful to achieve that, by removing the weakest links in the chain and letting you control the situation completely.

That is all we can do.

Being skillful in guild wars is a very unimportant thing in the great scheme of life. Being skillful in any game is quite unimportant unless you can make a living out of it.

The other thing it could be done, is in Anet hands.

Anet could redo the henchmen build and stop giving them single profession builds and crappy skills.

Additionally the game could create some templates when installing and it would be better if they give a short description how they worked, what it intends to achieve and in what teams they work well. And they should allow heroes to use those templates straight way, unlocked skills or not.

The community sucks, not because of any lack of game skill, but because it is a human society, relatively large and where everyone is basically anonymous and their actions have pretty much no consequence.

Hidden behind that mask of anonymity, people can do what they can't in the real world without being a pariah.

Or they just want to play a game they like and have fun with, that for some reason (Anet anti-piracy) needs to be in internet servers instead of their own personal PC.

And Fril, I've suggested a random GvG game mode to allow players interested in PvP a easier learning curve and a base to know players that want the same and form a GvG guild.

snaek · Mar 09, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by the jos

But then, I could be completely wrong and many people are actually playing JQ and FA mainly for fun and not for rewards.
But the last time I played there the comments of players suggested otherwise.

even if playing for rewards was a good thing, resorting to degenerate builds and attitudes to attain them is not a good thing, i.e. suicide bombers and leechers/bots.

personally i think the real population problem of ja/fq was its accessibility--it had none. it supposed to be a low-skill (casual) arena, and yet its such in a remote location that no ones even heard of. the update did not fix this one bit imo. it still doesnt appeal to low-skill (casual) players...it appeals to farmers. which can be considered even worse, because how can a lower skilled player learn if he is playing in arenas vs farmers/leechers/bots?

i still believe that environment plays a huge role in learning. if a new player has good friends in a good guild, he can start out in gvg or ha. now even though that these areas require most skill, he is in a good environment to learn much better than a new player who plays in lesser-skill demanding arenas like jq/fa.

this made me think of that tv debt commercial... 'you'll be stuck on a treadmill going nowhere fast.'

perhaps we need more guilds like kisu?