Curse

the_jos · Feb 18, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Fix'd. If you guys guys think HM is not challenging enough, why don't you stay true to the original game design and come PvP? The meta is stale and competition is dead: we could sure use some new blood to liven things up. If you don't find challenging (which I doubt), seek me out and I'll try to make it so for you.

Ok, little of topic but here we go.

Let me explain my 'problem' here.
I like to PvP organised and have played it in the past (mainly GvG).
However, for the past 2 years I've been an officer in my guild and became guildleader almost 2 years ago. And the guild is focussed on (HM) PvE and I intend to keep it that way.

For me to play PvP would most probably mean leaving my guild.
Could do that, but I also know it's most probably the end of the guild.
I've seen the influence of my person when forcing a split in my old guild and know there are two/three seperate groups of players combined in the guild.
They all play together once in a while, but there isn't much chemistry between the 'old' players and the newer recruits. It just takes time to get that. And the seperate groups are too small on their own to survive as guilds.
The past year I've already been decreasing my influence by putting several officers in more active roles which helped somewhat, but not enough yet.

Now if you or someone else has a solution for this, I'd like to hear it.

Improvavel · Feb 18, 2009, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Snip

So you point being you can't find enough people for PvP or the people you like to play with don't want to do it?

Yes it is annoying. That is why I don't understand some people interest to see PvE or some parts of it become more restrictive

kostolomac · Feb 18, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Or provide different difficulty levels.

Those who are inexperienced can play in normal mode. Those who are a bit more adept can stay in hard mode. The people still saying "hard mode is too hard" are those who want a bite at the rewards without the proper effort and skill, don't listen to them.

From my experience with games with adjustable difficulty are single player games and the player adjusts the difficulty for his enjoyment without extra rewards (I think you mentioned difficulty levels in Oblivion). Now if that happened to GW that would be awesome, but no , ANET screwed it up with more rewards and titles. Ok , more rewards are acceptable , but the titles were a bad idea. The HoM was even a worse idea because now the game judges players by titles and you get benefits for doing titles. People feel obligated to do stuff in HM.

Quote:

Yes, that is exactly what the game needs. Only the most skilled should be able to do elite areas, hence the reason they are called elite. The more experienced players should do hard mode and the newer or less experienced should do normal mode. This idea that everybody should be able to do whatever they want and people should have to gimp themselves for a challenge is ludicrious.

Can you name me an online pve game without new content for years that is challenging? When most elite areas were new only the best could do them. They are old as the bible now and it's no wonder that more and more people can do it. Making them harder will ruin the experience for new players for a handful of people reminiscing "the good old days".

the_jos · Feb 18, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So you point being you can't find enough people for PvP or the people you like to play with don't want to do it?

Not entirely.
The people I like to play with don't want to play PvP on the level I want to play. And I'm not talking about that I'm that much better, just that I'm far more serious about it than they are.
For me PvE isn't serious anymore (which annoys alliance members sometime), the same for many guildies. If we succeed we succeed, if we fail we fail. Big deal.
The moment I PvP I play for win and improvement (and I have a lot to improve). This is something most of my guildies don't want to. We've seen our share of 'High End' PvE guilds with that mentality and my guildies don't mix with them very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes it is annoying. That is why I don't understand some people interest to see PvE or some parts of it become more restrictive

Is it really about restriction?
I think it's more about risk reduction. When I team up with a PUG in an elite area there is a fair chance that it's an incompetent player who's only there for 'teh lootz'. I want someone in my team who I can have fun with, doesn't bitch about tiny mistakes or even a team whipe and just does his/her job while chatting along.
When people stop farming the area I will probably start taking more PUGs again since I know they either want to play the area for fun or they want to play it because they need it for some ugly title/hom statue.
Meaning they are dedicated to finishing and not dedicated to finishing in speed record time so they can join another group for more loot.
Not caring about anything but their own ego.

The difference between not getting PvE and PvP groups is large.
I would have no problem getting into a starter PvP guild, work my way up and get visible to other players who are on a level I can't play yet.
But the way I want to play is with a (somewhat) fixed team.
PvP is about team play and you only learn to function as team by playing with a group together.

For PvE there are two options for play.
Either PUG or Guild/Alliance. PUG is fun, I still play with them sometimes. Mainly on my second account while playing storyline NM.
The reason this is possible is because team play matters less in PvE.
Sure, you need some roles filled, but that's about it.
Even in the 'Elite Areas' true teamplay isn't needed to finish.
With guildies things are easier in those areas and that's mainly because I know them. I know my ranger will run of to a chest, aggroing all foes around.
I know one of my eles will move in too fast and will get spiked. I know my warrior will chace his foe back into our party, bringing all melee foes to us.
Since I mainly monk my guildies this means I know who to prot and when to cast a skill like aegis. I can do the same with PUG, I can somewhat read the field now, but it takes more effort from me because I need to be sharper.

Now let's talk about restriction again.
I've played Deep, Urgoz's and DoA with PUGs.
Played FoW with a very inexperienced alliance team. Played UW with a team of skilled players who I'd never played with before.
All this without consumables and PvE skills.
I think everyone can do this. But they need dedication to do so and I think many don't have that dedication.
They want the price but don't want to put any effort in it.

DreamWind · Feb 18, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You think they want challenge?

They want admiration, not challenge.

I hear this sometimes and it is off topic. I could easily argue that many people NOW want admiration, not challenge simply by using the inbalanced things that make the game easier. It doesn't matter WHY people want higher and varied challenge, all that matters is the game needs it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes it is annoying. That is why I don't understand some people interest to see PvE or some parts of it become more restrictive.

Your idea of restrictive is still ridiculous. Maybe we should just give everybody the ability to have god mode and do infinite damage? Also 20 heroes allowed per team (all with god mode). Maybe we should remove ALL restrictions and take away ALL challenge whatsoever? How about only I get god mode and if you don't like it you don't have to use it. We are playing an ONLINE MMO. You have no idea how crazy what you are saying sounds.

kostolomac · Feb 18, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Your idea of restrictive is still ridiculous. Maybe we should just give everybody the ability to have god mode and do infinite damage? Also 20 heroes allowed per team (all with god mode). Maybe we should remove ALL restrictions and take away ALL challenge whatsoever? How about only I get god mode and if you don't like it you don't have to use it. We are playing an ONLINE MMO. You have no idea how crazy what you are saying sounds.

How ironic. You want to impose restrictions to everyone and it's ok, but giving even a bit more power is out of the question. And blowing things out of proportion is a not a good argument by the way.

It's becoming a mantra , but here I go again: a pve MMO game without new content being regularly produced loses challenge quickly. Stop blaming skills and cons because the greatest enemy of challenge is time.

Bryant Again · Feb 18, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Fix'd.

Not all people get skilled at the game in just a couple nights, and if you don't put in the effort to get better in the game then you shouldn't be allowed to complete the most difficult areas.

@Kosto: Just because it gets old doesn't make it okay to strip all challenge.

bel unbreakable · Feb 18, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

I still think that if gw had a higher level cap and content was only avalible at certain levels it would solve most problems we have it's just not right you can get to end game elite content 10 mins after you start the game.

DreamWind · Feb 19, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

How ironic. You want to impose restrictions to everyone and it's ok, but giving even a bit more power is out of the question. And blowing things out of proportion is a not a good argument by the way.

It is a perfect counter to people arguing that everybody should be able to do what they want. They are essentially saying there should be no difficulty and people should be able to access whatever they want. So why not go a step farther and give everybody god mode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

It's becoming a mantra , but here I go again: a pve MMO game without new content being regularly produced loses challenge quickly. Stop blaming skills and cons because the greatest enemy of challenge is time.

The flaw with your argument is that the current content would already be challenging for people if the difficulty and power inbalance didn't exist. You can add content until the end of time, but if the game has overpowered things that make it easier, the game will never lose challenge because there is no challenge to be lost.

snaek · Feb 19, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

a pve MMO game without new content being regularly produced loses challenge quickly.

completely wrong

gw did change--anet literally dumbed down the game to cater to newer or casual players

u mention like as if anet producing new content will bring challenge to the game
i will guarantee u that wutever content is added to the game, pve skills will pwn that area jus the same as they do any other area

and thats the big problem really...a single build that is capable of winning every single time and every single area with little or no variation

ursan was that extreme example
but other skills possess similar qualities

"oh noes, the monster is using a spell!! wut should we do?!" = jus press 1
"oh noes, there r a bunch of melees rushing us!!! wut should we do!?!?" = jus press 1
"oh noes, these monsters have an impenetrable defense!!! wut should we do!?!?!" = jus press 1
"oh noes, this is a new area, ive never been here before, i wonder wut to expect!?!?!" = who cares wut to expect, jus press 1 and u'll win

Improvavel · Feb 19, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It is a perfect counter to people arguing that everybody should be able to do what they want. They are essentially saying there should be no difficulty and people should be able to access whatever they want. So why not go a step farther and give everybody god mode?

I don't mind if everyone has the chance to god mod. Won't change my game in the least.

That is the difference between you and me - I play and make my game. You are concerned about comparing your game to others game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

completely wrong

gw did change--anet literally dumbed down the game to cater to newer or casual players

What happened was that the game escalated and PvE deviated from PvP in terms of values.

If you compare FoW, SF and UW to the new elite areas they are just incomparable. Before the PvE game was meant to be played similarly to the PvP game. Now it isn't anymore.

And I must say, when the PvP game became similar to PvE, this is when during VoD, the damn ranger npcs start to throw 1xx damage power shots, GvG players TANKED AND FARMED THEM LIKE PvE PLAYERS DO.

PvE today is about finding the combination of resources needed to solve the puzzle and not about the PvP style of play against AI.

Removing the PvE only skills would also mean removing the current elite areas and rework them.

Sincerely, are you guys telling that someone that does mallyx and duncan (hm) with 2 players+6 heroes is a noob and don't deserve to do it because they are using 6 pve-only skills (no consumables)?

snaek · Feb 19, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvavel

And I must say, when the PvP game became similar to PvE, this is when during VoD, the damn ranger npcs start to throw 1xx damage power shots, GvG players TANKED AND FARMED THEM LIKE PvE PLAYERS DO.

u admit that its bad for pvp?
but its not bad for pve?
its bad for both imo

Quote:

Sincerely, are you guys telling that someone that does mallyx and duncan (hm) with 2 players+6 heroes is a noob and don't deserve to do it because they are using 6 pve-only skills (no consumables)?

bad question
theres not nuff info in the question to tell if hes a nub or not

dun see the point of this question...
im not gonna call someone a nub -jus- because he uses pve skills

if "pve skills" were called "cheats" instead
i could call him a cheater
but in this situation, i cant call him anything except a gw player

Quote:

That is the difference between you and me - I play and make my game. You are concerned about comparing your game to others game.

no
we simply care bout the balance of the game itself

u see a problem, and ur solution is that ppl can simply walk around it and ignore it
we see a problem, and we want to try and fix it

seriously, i dun kno where u get the idea that we want to try to change the game jus to make it harder for other ppl?
we want to change the game because we want it to be better balanced...if it makes it harder for other ppl or not, thats a consequence i'm willing to live wit for the sake of the games integrity

DreamWind · Feb 19, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I don't mind if everyone has the chance to god mod. Won't change my game in the least.

I can't believe you are serious. You don't think it would change your game? Even if it didn't, it would change THE game which is the problem. Snaek put it brilliantly...some people are happy to avoid problems but others want to fix them. But I wonder how many people would agree that god mode should be in the game.

Improvavel · Feb 19, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I can't believe you are serious. You don't think it would change your game?

No it wouldn't change my game. I wouldn't use it. I don't care about other people titles and skins.

Yes, it would be bad for Anet in the long run, as most people would be fed up from the game in a few days time, as they would be tempted to use god mod and get all the goodies and, after that, the game would have no interest whatsoever.

Quote:

Even if it didn't, it would change THE game which is the problem. Snaek put it brilliantly...some people are happy to avoid problems but others want to fix them. But I wonder how many people would agree that god mode should be in the game.

I would like the problems to be fixed too. I was happy when ursan was nerfed, although it didn't affected my game at all either way and I should have been indifferent.

I just don't like the proposals presented to how to fix the game.

Removing consumables and PvE only skills by itself won't solve the problems at all. It won't even make it better.

So unless there is a major overhaul of the game, its better to keep it at the current state (PvE wise) than do something that can cause even more damage.

And, with the announcement of GW 2, Anet pretty much said "Look, we were navigating uncharted waters, using a very different financial model to all other MMORPG. We did loads of good things and loads of mistakes too. We learned with them. GW 2 will incorporate what we learned and hopefully be even a better experience."

Also, I don't like the all "The good days were great and now is all bad" argument. After all, necros had infinite energy then and there was no minion cap at the time, for example.

GW was and is a great game. But it is a very unique game too.

You, I and everyone wish there would be a major overhaul of the game to make the PvE play style similar to the GvG prime days, while having multiple goals that the titles introduced. But unless we are naive, we all know that won't happen. So half measures are most likely to cause damage than to fix anything (as I don't consider ranking players in PvE a priority).

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Saw a very interesting tidbit right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would like the problems to be fixed too. I was happy when ursan was nerfed, although it didn't affected my game at all either way and I should have been indifferent.

Why do you feel like you should've felt indifferent?

Ursan was not only overpowered but completely went against the whole point of choosing a profession. If everyone was just going to be the same thing, why release different classes at all?

I don't care what others do in the game. I don't care about people buying gold or hacking to get gold. I care when the developers go topsy-turvy and change their game into something less. I don't mind when developers offer more variety as long as that variety is balanced, and PvE skills are not.

They don't have to be removed, just toned down. Problem there though is that many are simply vastly superior variants of other skills, so in addition to balancing them out they'd need a completely different function.

Also, you do know that "OP monster skills and abilities" are one of the only ways to really provide a certain extent of challenge in a static environment? How many hundreds of "solid" games actually put you in a "fair" fight?: Doom? Pit you against thousands of monsters. God of War? Thousands of monsters. CoD4? Thousands of assholes. Even in FEAR you were outnumbered.

Xun Rama · Feb 19, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

To completely ignore your OP and go off on my own tangent:

The problem isn't players being good or bad; there have always been good and bad players.

The problem is that the community in general has shifted from generally helpful to complete trolling. I don't know what caused this, but it seems a new internet meme that comes out daily helps propagate it, certainly.

You know...

"whoru?"
"umad?"
"no u"

That sort of stuff. It definitely doesn't help the player mentality.

This sort of thing isn't really easily fixable though. It's kind of like knowing using the word "gay" offensively, rather than for happy, or someone of the same-sex nature is known by everyone to be improper and down right wrong and immoral; yet, we still do it, most of us uncontrollably. Why?

Habit. The way people learn is from their peers. If you teach one person something, gradually that will butterfly out and affect everyone they have contact with and everyone that person had contact with ad infinitum.

If you want to get right down to it, that's the problem. I've addressed it, someone else can try to figure out how to fix it. It'd just give me a headache and at best I can assume my approach would be decidedly indecisive and generally ineffective.

Kattar · Feb 19, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

So what's goin on in this thread?

98% of the people I know that use "nou" etc. do it as a joke. Whether people take that as something that they need to use in serious conversation is up to them. I (for example) don't have to alter my behavior because someone else thinks I'm doing something I'm not.

It does have to do with the overall mentality, but in a slighty different manner.

the_jos · Feb 19, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ursan was not only overpowered but completely went against the whole point of choosing a profession. If everyone was just going to be the same thing, why release different classes at all?

Ursan was 'invented' because of some other community problem: class discrimination. With the blessing everyone would be roughly equal.
Ursan made it possible for many players to PUG elite areas without a farming party. It doesn't matter if you are Assassin, Rt or Mesmer. Who cares, we love you since you bring Ursan and Consumables.

But what made people call out for a nerf on UB? It wasn't the equality, it was the complete lack of skill needed when playing it while using consumables.
And at the end people were discriminating again, mainly asking for high-armor characters or those with benefitial primary professions.
Ursan for a little period solved some problems for a while, mainly class discrimination and empty outposts in elite areas.
Problems that are present again nowadays.
Well, outposts might not be completely empty but people sure ain't taking anything except the current farming builds/professions.

DreamWind · Feb 19, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Ursan was 'invented' because of some other community problem: class discrimination. With the blessing everyone would be roughly equal.

Class discrimination only exists because of an Anet created inbalance in the classes. To use Ursan as a coverup patch is basically a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Well, outposts might not be completely empty but people sure ain't taking anything except the current farming builds/professions.

Well then the question becomes, does that reflect poorly on the community for their terrible skill or poorly on the company for their terrible design (or in my opinion both)?

kostolomac · Feb 19, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well then the question becomes, does that reflect poorly on the community for their terrible skill or poorly on the company for their terrible design (or in my opinion both)?

I agree with the second more than with the first.

IMO consumables are far more damaging to player skill than pve skills. Consets allow far more room for error than UB did.