Curse

upier · Dec 13, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

Exactly. A random format favors the side with least components required.
Simply put, I don't agree that pure dps is necessarily the best option for disabling a monk. But it's a moot point anyway, since with the recent patch your "best option" should now be a lot more viable. Not to mention that we're not getting anywhere on that particular issue anyway, so I suggest we simply agree to disagree.

The problem is who is on the receiving end of the stick.
For instance - if you have 8 monks behind the green gate, you can get 6 of the healing/protting the ele and you get 2 of them healing the monks! One Diversion won't do ANYTHING - even if one of the monks casts though it!
What you want is to put such pressure on the monks there that they need to start taking care of themselves rather then just focusing on the NPCs. Because that opens up windows when the NPC is vulnerable. And there is no way that this can happen if the best options are pretty much disabled because of the way the map is designed.
Still, if we start seeing 8-monk teams - battles will be over before they start. Because those guys just need to stay alive for 5 minutes and without modifying Kurzick objectives that would FORCE them into offense to actually win (thus forcing the Kurzicks to spec into more roles!) - there is just no way that they can fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

I don't. Read my previous posts.
- Mana

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

FA isn't imbalanced because of a lack of options, but because not enough players bring the right options to the table.
- Mana

Just a quick question since I don't quite understand.
Does that means if Luxons bring the right options - given the random format - the game is balanced? Or do you feel that the game is always imbalanced?

Fitz Rinley · Dec 13, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I never cared for Ft Aspenwood. Jade Quarry I like - but it never had players so I gave up going. (Plus, with 10 characters to work on it is not my priority.)

The last time I was in FA the Luxons waltzed in and killed both gates immediately. I didnt really see a point. My normal experience at FA is that the Luxons win about 60-75% of the time, no matter which side I am on.

AKB48 · Dec 13, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Read again what I said.
So that's - 2 eles on 1 ranger?
And what happens when the ranger dies?

And what are the 7 other people on the ranger's team doing?

So you are saying the eles on the Lux. side can never switch to a new target once their old one is dead? No wonder their teams are shitty. And as for the other 7, well they can run amber, attack Lux., heal defenders etc. As for the healer on the ranger, try to stay in a SH ele's aoe spells and see how happy the monk is with his energy after the spells end.

upier · Dec 13, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

So you are saying the eles on the Lux. side can never switch to a new target once their old one is dead? No wonder their teams are shitty. And as for the other 7, well they can run amber, attack Lux., heal defenders etc. As for the healer on the ranger, try to stay in a SH ele's aoe spells and see how happy the monk is with his energy after the spells end.

When you have 2 people attacking the ranger - that's two people that aren't killing NPCs. Then you kill the ranger - keep in mind this is going to take twice as long IF the ranger stays in the AoE AND receives no healing - then the healers do their magic and try to keep the ele NPC alive and then the ranger is back.
Which considering the ele just wasted his best spells killing the ranger - won't really be hard.

I thought that the situation got better - but after the last few matches ... it's insane. 4ish monks/ritus and you can get to Gunther (because of the split) - but then things just go mad. If the Luxons don't have healers, they die from the pressure from the rest of the Kurzicks, and if they do - they start to lack in the damage output.
The Kuzicks SERIOUSLY need an active objective - otherwise this is just unplayable.

ManaCraft · Dec 13, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

For instance - if you have 8 monks behind the green gate, you can get 6 of the healing/protting the ele and you get 2 of them healing the monks! One Diversion won't do ANYTHING - even if one of the monks casts though it!
What you want is to put such pressure on the monks there that they need to start taking care of themselves rather then just focusing on the NPCs.

Well... I don't really have much to say on that one. It's a purely theoretical argument. It sounds great on paper, but eight monk teams just don't happen. The few times that they do, it's a pure fluke. Random probability will screw you over every so often, and when that happens there's nothing you can do about it. Of course a single diversion won't do anything against eight monks. Nor will anything else. But in most games by far, disruption is a wonderful tool for dealing with the one or two monks that are typically there (and often far better than pure dps).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just a quick question since I don't quite understand.
Does that means if Luxons bring the right options - given the random format - the game is balanced? Or do you feel that the game is always imbalanced?

It means that if luxons would bring the right components to the table, they'd dramatically increase their chances of winning. That's part of the reason why FA is imbalanced, and has nothing to do with the map itself.

But the real reason why FA is imbalanced is because there are too many components required to win as a luxon. Look at what's required on the kurzick side. Monks and ... well, monks. That's it. Get a couple of good monks and you're basically set. All the rest of the team has to do is offer up some random damage components, which can basically be anything as long as it deals damage, so they can get in the way of turtles and stall for time. Some games even turn into kurzicks utilizing a lemming-like strategy, blindly throwing themselves at the enemy, just to give the turtles another target than Gunther.

The luxons, on the other hand, need loads of components. Enchant removal is just one, you also need constant healing for turtles. Either guardian or weapon of warding is a must to prevent interrupts. You probably also need some monk hate to get through gates and to prevent chainhealing of Gunther, and then of course you need a healthy amount of damage. Now, it used to be that all of this didn't matter as much because luxons had more time to accomplish their goal. Even with an uncoordinated effort, which is what most random teams deliver, you could literally turtle your way to the finish line. You had the time for it. Nowadays, however, with the reduced timer length, it matters a whole lot more if you have the right components at the right time. But random probability inherently dictates that in most games, you won't have all those components. The options are there, you simply need too many of them to succeed in the time frame that you are given. There are too many problems to work around.

But like I said, the recent update changed a lot of this - interestingly enough by reducing the amount of components required on the luxon side. Turtles now have enchant removal. That's one less thing you need out of your own pool of 64 skills. They're also no longer as vulnerable to interrupts, which reduces the need to bring (and constantly maintain) blocking skills on them. And so far, from what I've seen, luxon wins are not so rare anymore. But time will tell.

- Mana

Nightow · Dec 13, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

One thing to note is that the turtles only remove 1 enchant per Siege Attack so I'd still bring rend and/or Well of the Profane or Mark of Insecurity.

Just a thought here...
10 minute timer made it where luxons won more than kurzicks.
The current 5 minute time is the opposite.
What if they tried some 7-8 minute timer?

AKB48 · Dec 13, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The Kuzicks SERIOUSLY need an active objective - otherwise this is just unplayable.

Like what? attack the invading Lux.? Then its no different from RA, except you get a bigger map

Seef II · Dec 13, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

One thing to note is that the turtles only remove 1 enchant per Siege Attack so I'd still bring rend and/or Well of the Profane or Mark of Insecurity.

Just a thought here...
10 minute timer made it where luxons won more than kurzicks.
The current 5 minute time is the opposite.
What if they tried some 7-8 minute timer?

I think the current timer is 12-15 minutes, down from 17-20. 5 minute games would be a 100% Kurzick rout. They reduced the timer by 5 minutes, not to 5 minutes.

I still don't like the "difficult to interrupt" thing, and having siege turtle attack remove enchants screws over Kurzick player elementalists, but as long as you can still bug warriors it's a wash.

Celeborn10 · Dec 14, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

I think the current timer is 12-15 minutes, down from 17-20. 5 minute games would be a 100% Kurzick rout. They reduced the timer by 5 minutes, not to 5 minutes.

I still don't like the "difficult to interrupt" thing, and having siege turtle attack remove enchants screws over Kurzick player elementalists, but as long as you can still bug warriors it's a wash.

It means that the ranger will have to be on their toes instead of thinking "Interrupt, oh blind<mending touch, time for Dshot!". It means things like a Bsurge ele will make a noticeable difference when defending the turtle. I used to bring Dshot on my monk and would carry one hard interrupt on my mesmer. Now I'm thinking PD is probably the best bet for interrupting the turtles hehe. But if the turtle shot truly does ignore line of sight I will start playing Luxon again hehehe.

credit · Dec 14, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

They should have made the siege turtles attacks remove 1 enchantment, but they should have left the turtle's interruptable.

peace prot spirit.

fenix · Dec 14, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Now FA is a bunch of bad players who think they can run Ranger and interrupt turtles, or spam Barrage, and a bunch of bad players who run random crap and make us lose...

Celeborn10 · Dec 14, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Now FA is a bunch of bad players who think they can run Ranger and interrupt turtles, or spam Barrage, and a bunch of bad players who run random crap and make us lose...

Well, they were bad before it was just that they had such a useful and easy spot to fill. Now they have to anticipate and use their skills in an intelligent manner instead of spamming interrupts and Barrange/IA. If they are to turn into better players, it is for their own good that they have to adhere to a higher standard in order to make a tangible difference.

AKB48 · Dec 14, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Now FA is a bunch of bad players who think they can run Ranger and interrupt turtles, or spam Barrage, and a bunch of bad players who run random crap and make us lose...

Well with like 100000billion npcs hanging around skills don't make too much a difference if you ask me. Especially on rangers, I mean, how hard is it to hit someone with a flaming arrow? Or to interrupt someone casting a 3sec spell?

But I gotta say, FA is now more exciting, since the games are varying more. I had a game where I was the only monk with my energy bar around 10 energy, God's Vengence was at 98% completed and Master Arch. had like 200ish hp left.(1/2 of 1/5th of his health I guess) We won with Master Arch having less 100hp. I was going "oh crap, we are so close yet we're gonna lose" the whole time, never thinking that we can win. Yet when we won, I was like "fk yes!". It really is one of the moments that's worth reliving in a game like GW.

upier · Dec 14, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

Well... I don't really have much to say on that one. It's a purely theoretical argument. It sounds great on paper, but eight monk teams just don't happen. The few times that they do, it's a pure fluke. Random probability will screw you over every so often, and when that happens there's nothing you can do about it. Of course a single diversion won't do anything against eight monks. Nor will anything else. But in most games by far, disruption is a wonderful tool for dealing with the one or two monks that are typically there (and often far better than pure dps).

Like I said, I raged after starting to get 4ish monk/ritu teams.
And yes, disruption helps nicely, but in this format it's just not enough.
You Diversion one guy, possibly Shame the second, PLeak the third AND throw WoR on some others AND Rend Gunthy - but what happens next?
Nothing - because you can't yell over Vent to spike him down.
And then you can't keep this kind of disruption up constantly. You'll be able to throw that out, what, every 20-30 secs?
And if the monks run on empty - they just run into the middle of the battlefield and get killed, spawning pretty much in the exact same spot with full energy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

It means that if luxons would bring the right components to the table, they'd dramatically increase their chances of winning. That's part of the reason why FA is imbalanced, and has nothing to do with the map itself.

Yes, bringing better options wouldn't hurt. The problem is that BOTH sides would benefit from that advice.
And as was said - if you see the Kurzicks playing better - there is simply not going to be anything you can do about it.
The only way that playing batter would improve the state of Aspy is, if the Luxons would improve and the Kurzicks wouldn't.
(As was said before, I agree with the fact that one of the issues is having too many roles that the Luxons need to fill, so no need to quote that - yet I REALLY hope that if anyone, that can make a difference is reading this, they'll re-read it!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

But like I said, the recent update changed a lot of this - interestingly enough by reducing the amount of components required on the luxon side. Turtles now have enchant removal. That's one less thing you need out of your own pool of 64 skills. They're also no longer as vulnerable to interrupts, which reduces the need to bring (and constantly maintain) blocking skills on them. And so far, from what I've seen, luxon wins are not so rare anymore. But time will tell.
- Mana

This I disagree fully with.
Enchantment removal is still a must. Even if both turtles survive - and they keep firing and removing enches - Gunthy isn't always the guy that you want the ench to be removed from. With the amount of Veils, Minds/Souls, Bonds, SoAs, Guardians, .... being thrown around (HOPEFULLY Peace won't show up) - you need to be able to remove those things also. I run Drain and Rend on my mesmer - and there is no way he can keep up with the amount of enchanting going on.
Ench removal still is an ABSOLUTE must - and if we see more Kurzick players playing better - it's going to be even MORE important. Ench removal is the Rez Siggy of FA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

I think the current timer is 12-15 minutes, down from 17-20. 5 minute games would be a 100% Kurzick rout. They reduced the timer by 5 minutes, not to 5 minutes.

Time sure flies when you are getting kicked in the nuts!

It never hit me that it really is THAT long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Like what? attack the invading Lux.? Then its no different from RA, except you get a bigger map

Well, keep in mind you rez automatically.
At full HP.
And full energy.
And the objective of ONE side is to wait it out.
Sounds ... fair?

Some things I'd suggest looking into:
1. forcing Kurzicks to abandon their posts (or at least force a split) by giving them an active objective - otherwise the game ends in a draw if the Kurzicks do not achieve the active objective, yet they manage to keep Gunthy alive when the Vengeance completes. This would also enable the Kurzicks to WIN the match without having to wait it out. (Although something new would need to be implemented - because now the only options are taking down the mines, command posts and that's going to be too easy, because you can send a few Kurzick guys to take down those things and that then forces the Luxons to split (to take them back) which means that there is even less chance to them getting into the castle.)
2. some sort of DP - probably not the normal one of having less HP and energy - but something in the lines of coming back as if you were rezzed by a Rez Siggy (full HP, 25% energy)
3. if the Luxons control mines, being able to rez in the castle
4. sending in turtles automatically (and fixing the AI!)
(Keep in mind that just ONE of those suggestions won't matter in the slightest with heavy(or full)-support Kurzick teams.)

Dmitri3 · Dec 14, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

After turtle's buff, my observations were that FA is pretty balanced.

Went with Luxon BEFORE turtle's buff cause it was more challenging and had around 60% wins.

After turtle buffs, decided to go with around 10 matches on each side:
When on Lux: 9 out of 10 wins
When on Kurz: 9 out of 10 wins

It's not the map, it's the players. The side with least leechers, bots and poor players wins.

ManaCraft · Dec 14, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said, I raged after starting to get 4ish monk/ritu teams.

Can only speak for myself, but from what I've seen, most of my games have an average of about two monks/rits on either side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yes, bringing better options wouldn't hurt. The problem is that BOTH sides would benefit from that advice.

Been over this already. There is (or was?) more room for improvement on the luxon side.

- Mana

upier · Dec 14, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

Can only speak for myself, but from what I've seen, most of my games have an average of about two monks/rits on either side.

Each Kurzick player decides if the Luxons will have a chance to win when he enters the game. If the Kurzick player enters on a monk/resto rit - he isn't giving the Luxons a chance to win.
If you have 2 monks - that means you are playing with 6 people who rely on luck to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

Been over this already. There is (or was?) more room for improvement on the luxon side.
- Mana

Even the best Luxon player will need to rely on luck to get the team they want.
The best Kurzick players won't. Because they will all be playing monks/resto rits.
Getting better is a necessity. The game should be balanced for the best players. And currently it's balanced in favor of Kurzick resto rits/monks. If you were to get 8 of those guys - even if the Luxons play better - it's going to be impossible to win.

Just because you have people playing like shit most of the time, that can not be used as an excuse to not fix the other issues!

On the subject of giving a Kurzicks an active objective: it hit me that running amber is a VERY decent option. But to make it viable - the Kurzicks NEED to be forced to run it! That could be achieved if Vengeance would only rise if amber was handed to the NPCs (of course then the amount by which the Vengeance rises when handing amber would need to be tweaked!). That means that Kurzicks can NOT win unless they run amber. And to run amber they'd need to open doors - which means that Luxons can get in (doors could then also be tweaked by making them stay open for a certain time each time they are opened - so that you don't get people opening and closing them to fast for the Luxons to be able to react).
And if the Kurzicks need to run amber - this imposes the luck-factor on the Kurzick side. The same thing that currently punishes the Luxon side.

Dmitri3 · Dec 14, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Upier, are you sure you're not this guy? Keep note we only had 1 resto rit, no1 else had any healing apart from maybe minor self-heals. That's why we wiped them so fast too.

8 monks and resto rits for Kurzicks almost guarantees win for Lux, of course unless they're completely incompetent.
You underestimate what damage turtle can do if it's not taken care of. Also, no one will be able to run amber, which once again, means success for Lux.

upier · Dec 14, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Upier, are you sure you're not this guy? Keep note we only had 1 resto rit, no1 else had any healing apart from maybe minor self-heals. That's why we wiped them so fast too.

Nah, I only yell at my team-mates!
Much more productive!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

8 monks and resto rits for Kurzicks almost guarantees win for Lux, of course unless they're completely incompetent.
You underestimate what damage turtle can do if it's not taken care of. Also, no one will be able to run amber, which once again, means success for Lux.

The only chance you have is to Rend and spike at the same time that the turtle attacks. And HOPE that none of the 8 guys behind the door casts anything in that moment. And that they are so dumb that they can't count to ten and then just blindly hit WoH in anticipation of the Turtles hit.

House Silvermoon · Dec 14, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

wow just wow. like aspenwood isnt stacked against the kurzicks enuf, we have people wanting to add to the luxon advantage. ok lets list this.

-luxons start with mines under their control and respawn there as well.

-turtles are nigh impossible to interupt now and remove enchantments from everyone in the blast radius which is freaking huge.

-turtle teams come with wammos and mines are guarded by rangers that cripple runners. kurzicks get all squishy allies who arent anywhere near as effective at doing anything.

-the gatekeepers will literally run outside the fort all the way to the outer gates and get stuck. this happens every so often.

-turtle teams respawn very fast after elimination and have no penalty for death. i.e. they dont need amber to be restored....

-if luxons get too close to gunther none of the npcs will except amber rendering anyone holding the amber useless till luxons are forced out, if they are forced out.

this is just about it. i feel that if a luxon team is semi decent they should win every match. even with the lessened timer. now they have beefed turtles its pretty gg.

i feel that the interupting clause for turtles should be removed, and amber should be required to return the turtle teams. that might fix it up a bit.