Curse

Gli · Mar 30, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

on the contrary, you get items that you can't get anywhere else in the bonus missions. by the definitions used by some people in this thread, that means it gives users who have the bonus pack a huge advantage. and by their rather bizarre logic, that means the bonus mission pack is RMT. also by those definitions, the BMP is even worse than XTH, because the items generated basically makes the ingame economy irrelevant. after all, you need to pay money for it. XTH is, at least, free for all accounts.

First off, on the contrary back right back at you, and the only logic I'd call bizarre is the one you apply, were it not that I'd rather refrain from calling it logic in the first place.

The bonus mission pack offers content. You pay real money for the privelege of access to that content, which you can then use to your personal advantage, or you don't and you can't. Buying access to that content doesn't offer you any advantage over another player other than increasing the possibilities that you are offered in the microcosm of your own account, and whatever unique rewards it offers need to be played for. Also, the benefits of the bonus mission pack don't scale upwards proportionately to the amount of money spent on it, apart from the initial purchase.

The XTH on the other hand, offers an abusive way of gaining disproportionate amounts of a reward that's a major reward for one of the games major activities: PvP. Someone owning 33 accounts will receive more TRPs than the winner of the monthly 1v1 tournament, by no other virtue than shelling out for 32 extra accounts.

If you can't see anything wrong with that, I see no point in furthering this discussion and will extract myself from it presently.

moriz · Mar 30, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

if you shell out for 32 extra accounts, then you should enjoy the benefit of having 32 extra accounts. if i buy 32 cars, then i should enjoy the benefits (as well as the drawbacks) of having 32 cars. we do, after all, live in a free society. whether having those accounts, or those cars is worth it or not shouldn't matter to you.

wu is me · Mar 30, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if you shell out for 32 extra accounts, then you should enjoy the benefit of having 32 extra accounts. if i buy 32 cars, then i should enjoy the benefits (as well as the drawbacks) of having 32 cars. we do, after all, live in a free society. whether having those accounts, or those cars is worth it or not shouldn't matter to you.

See your main argumentative point is a repetition of the already well debated free market, vs regulated market debate. For example If you pay for an AK-47, Cruise missile, or Nuclear Warhead, should you be allowed to enjoy the full benefits of it?
And what was the result of that debate? Well take most of the markets of today as example.
I know that in Most countries owning a semi-automatic rifle is illegal, and for good reason.
Same logic applies. A-net is now the regulatory body for a Society of Gamers.
The argument here is whether or not some of the benefits that you get from purchasing an account should be provided.

edit1: Honestly mate, if your gonna bring up points like that, you aren't adding very much weight to your words nor credibility to your opinion =/

edit 2: Imean cmon.... arguing that the XTH is not RMT based on the EULA definition? Do you know what Cyclical Logic is???

moriz · Mar 31, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

IF you managed to buy those weapons, and IF you somehow managed to get away with buying them, then i guess you'll have the ability to use them. what happens afterwards might not be particularly good for you, nor to anyone/anything around you. it's up to the law enforcement to stop you from doing something illegal. if you managed to do something illegal in spite of law enforcement, then law enforcement have a lot to answer for.

btw, i've already made my point, and is arguing for the sake of arguing now (just like everyone else for that matter). i've been arguing that additional zkeys is like additional swamp flowers: it doesn't do anything except redistributing the wealth already in the game. if anyone is really so keen on getting a bigger slice of that wealth to buy a ton of accounts, then let them. by the end of the day, the amount of gold you have in this game hardly matters. the amount of people who cares for these things are in a rather tiny minority; probably smaller than the pvp community that some of you are so eager to deride.

and btw, i didn't say XTH is not RMT based on the EULA definition. i said XTH is totally legal because YOU accepted it. you can certainly argue whether if it is legal for anet to allow it, in which case you'll lose that argument rather quickly.

wu is me · Mar 31, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

IF you managed to buy those weapons, and IF you somehow managed to get away with buying them, then i guess you'll have the ability to use them. what happens afterwards might not be particularly good for you, nor to anyone/anything around you. it's up to the law enforcement to stop you from doing something illegal. if you managed to do something illegal in spite of law enforcement, then law enforcement have a lot to answer for.

btw, i've already made my point, and is arguing for the sake of arguing now (just like everyone else for that matter). i've been arguing that additional zkeys is like additional swamp flowers: it doesn't do anything except redistributing the wealth already in the game. if anyone is really so keen on getting a bigger slice of that wealth to buy a ton of accounts, then let them. by the end of the day, the amount of gold you have in this game hardly matters. the amount of people who cares for these things are in a rather tiny minority; probably smaller than the pvp community that some of you are so eager to deride.

and btw, i didn't say XTH is not RMT based on the EULA definition. i said XTH is totally legal because YOU accepted it. you can certainly argue whether if it is legal for anet to allow it, in which case you'll lose that argument rather quickly.

rofl.... so, your saying that its Perfectly fine to use Nukes, so long as you can get away with it? anyways on topic....

I very much like your analogy of Swamp flowers.
Given your point about handing out swampflowers every month being the same shit, then we have the following conclusion:

TRP = Zkeys = Swampflowers

Ok now, whats the prize for winning Mats? TRP, ie, Swamp flowers....

Would any1 PvP, when people, even the designers, view the activity to so base, and pointless as to be rewarding swamp flowers for it's top achievers?
I doubt it...

You may say... who cares about PvP, but that would be very selfish and short sighted wouldn't it?

edit: Also let me just point out that if you change your mind and decide Zkeys, do have "Some" value, you contradict yourself in saying that XTH cannot in anyway be classified as a form of RMT.

Martin Alvito · Mar 31, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

every player who plays for a few hours at a time, every player who plays for fun, every player who player who fools around for shits and giggles, every player who plays with friends, every player who plays pvp, every player who plays pve, and yes, even those who plays both equally, care very little about this stuff. you are outnumbered. badly.

You can assume away the set of indifferent players, because nothing you do will impact them either way. If we contract the discussion to the only set of players that matters, namely those with a stake: you're outnumbered on this one. You say it's OK, and your position is backed up by the mass of apathetic people that don't care about this argument (whom we can safely assume away as voiceless) and the small subset of people that have purchased tons of accounts.

Further, the set of the uncaring is likely to contract if the present situation persists. Eventually, they will not be able to buy shinies with XTH proceeds due to huge prices, and will be poorer than they were when they started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

heh, YOU accusing me of using strawman arguments, when you've been using one all along. you still have not conclusively prove that zkeys actually generate significant amount of gold in the game economy.

I have been rather patient with your complete and utter lack of a clue regarding economics. I've shown that millions of valuable items that are accepted as regular currency are being poured into the market each month. I have further shown why their value does not decline rapidly as this process happens (associated title track and players' intrinsic value on points to title track). I have explained the likely long term impact of this change and demonstrated an observable impact of this change (fixed-supply item price spike) that is consistent with the theory I have put forward.

The scientific burden of proof is now on you. I have presented a theory and shown how this theory helps us understand the virtual world we spend time in. If you want to disconfirm my theory, you need to do two things:

1) Create a new theory
2) Show how your theory accounts for the success of my theory and adds excess empirical content. In other words, you need to explain why prices on limited items are rising AND explain some other empiricial phenomena with your theory that my theory is unable to explain.

If you cannot do that, I am done arguing with you. Anything you put forward that cannot meet the above specifications is, by scientific standards, inferior to a constructed theory with empirical support. You can insist that applying economic theory to the game is fruitless if it makes you happy, but this doesn't seem to be giving you any leverage on explaining what's happening in the game right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

not to mention, there's nothing wrong with my argument. buying privilege to use account? true. playing XTH is one of the benefits? true. accounts can generate ingame gold? true. gold on one account can be traded to another? true. everything i said in that sentence is true. i did not base them on anything that's untrue, or even hypothetical.

All of these things are true, but they do nothing to support your argument. Here's your argument: XTH is fine because ANet put it into the EULA. I'll reference a Dilbert cartoon here - if ANet put a provision into the EULA requiring you to submit to a strip search to use the product, this would not hold up in a court of law. The EULA is not ironclad.

Further, we're not debating whether or not XTH is "technically legal". My argument is as follows: XTH is nothing more than RMT where ANet collects the profits. This will have negative long run consequences for the game and for ANet's likely bottom line when GW2 arrives.

I've proven the first two points, and the argument for the third point is reasonably tight but open to debate. Even so, I can't see how XTH is doing anything positive to increase interest in GW2, other than perhaps increasing the number of people able to max the Zaishen title.

moriz · Mar 31, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

you've shown examples from real life economies, which have almost nothing to do with how GW's economy works. really, you should stop drawing useless examples and start THINKING.

anyways, it's pointless to argue with a bunch of people whether a few pixels will decide the future of GW or not. it's already been decided, and the tiny minority that cares about this stuff won't matter in the end anyways. so have fun arguing in circles about a number tally that has no effect on the game. bye.

wu is me · Mar 31, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Your reasoning capabilities are child like...

Real world economic models are in fact, purely abstractions that much Less accurately represent the way the real world economics than a market that is much more controlled and variable free like the GW economy.

You'll find many economic theories started off as a simple thought experiment based on a set of assumptions.

The way you prove that a theory isn't an accurate proxy for a given economy is by checking the assumptions of the theory, and comparing them to the real economy to find out how true they indeed are.

Just saying

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you've shown examples from real life economies, which have almost nothing to do with how GW's economy works. really, you should stop drawing useless examples and start THINKING.

is gonna get you nowhere cos basically your just giving a child-like"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoganBaby

No it isnt! waaaa!

"
Contradiction.

But you'll find that most basic supply demand models fit the guild wars model, and also, Most if not all definitions of 'MONEY' will categorise Z-keys as Cash. Google 'economic definition of currency' or something on those lines and it'll prolly get you a result.

God.. I feel like the guy in monty pythons who pays for a contradiction, and I'm NOT getting my money's worth, goodbye! :P

FengShuiDove · Mar 31, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

My least favorite thing about XTH:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?p=4559905

The creation of ignorant retards like this. I enjoy to actually watch and actually predict and not just hammer in the most consistent guilds for more free pixels.

moriz · Apr 01, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Your reasoning capabilities are child like...

Real world economic models are in fact, purely abstractions that much Less accurately represent the way the real world economics than a market that is much more controlled and variable free like the GW economy.

You'll find many economic theories started off as a simple thought experiment based on a set of assumptions.

The way you prove that a theory isn't an accurate proxy for a given economy is by checking the assumptions of the theory, and comparing them to the real economy to find out how true they indeed are.

Just saying
is gonna get you nowhere cos basically your just giving a child-like"
"
Contradiction.

But you'll find that most basic supply demand models fit the guild wars model, and also, Most if not all definitions of 'MONEY' will categorise Z-keys as Cash. Google 'economic definition of currency' or something on those lines and it'll prolly get you a result.

God.. I feel like the guy in monty pythons who pays for a contradiction, and I'm NOT getting my money's worth, goodbye! :P

heh, calling me childlike. alrighty then, i'll ONCE AGAIN illustrate my theory, JUST so that MAYBE it will sink into your thick skulls.

-GW economy is simple: it is based on a hardwired system, which directly dictates how much gold is created. it also features specific gold sinks which completely destroys gold at a fairly constant pace
-unlike a real economy, gold sitting in storage do not grow. it should be very obvious that the zaishen chest does not pay interest, and also means this gold is static: there are no banks reinvesting that gold elsewhere. this means, that while gold has been accumulating over the three years of GW's existance, only a tiny portion of it has been actively traded. drawing some rough numbers, this means that, if there is 1 billion gold in the system, only about 15 million gold is actually being traded around. the rest is sitting in storage.
-expanding from above, this also means that gold is only significantly injected into the economy when someone actually intends to buy something with it. for instance, i have 600k gold in storage. if i have no intention of buying anything, that gold effectively does not exist in the market. however, if i decide to buy a voltaic spear, that gold instantly becomes part of the market, because it is now being actively traded.
-this also works in reverse: a rare item is worth very little (around 400g at most) in the game engine. it's better to think of them as cheques waiting to be cashed in than the actual gold themselves. if i have a rare item, such as a voltaic spear or obsidian edge, and it is just sitting in my storage, its value and impact on the market is zero. but as soon as i take it out and intend to sell it, it becomes the 100k+300e, or whatever those things fetch now these days.
-and just like a rare item, a zkey is worth practically nothing according to the game engine (this is quite opposite of the ecto, whose market value and actual value according to the game engine are always fairly close). zkeys function the same as rare items in GW: they are cheques that facilitate the exchange of gold. the overall economy does not change after the trade.

given all of the above, here is the result if a lot of zkeys are distributed into the community:
-a lot gold will be transferred (zkeys, after all, have a title attached to it)
-very little gold is generated

the end result of a ton of zkeys put into the game is a redistribution of wealth. that, i believe, cannot be proven otherwise. therefore, the distribution of zkeys into accounts have no effect on the overall economy; it does change the demographic of the market however. this has generally resulted in a lot more people with 300k-600k gold, and also resulted in a sudden spike in the available gold in the economy. after all, the first thing anyone would do if receiving a large chunk of money is to buy something nice with it. this, and really only this, is the cause of the rising prices in the mid-high value market.

once that gold is spent, or saved to storage for later use, the available gold will drop down again, and prices will logically go down with it.

now to the topic of people hoarding accounts for more zkeys:
-remember what i said about zkeys merely drawing gold out of storage? well, that's where the gold is coming from. the zkeys, once again, redistributes the available gold. though this time, that gold goes from a number of players to one player.
-since the available gold in the game still does not change, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't change the economy one bit. after all, we've gone from a rather small number of accounts holding most of the stored gold to.... well, a rather small number of accounts holding most of the stored gold. the end result is roughly the same as the initial conditions, except the gold are now in different storages.

now, some of you may consider this to be unfair. personally i don't. after all, the end result is more or less the same as the initial conditions, just with different people holding onto the majority of stored gold. and let's face it, this trend is not going to continue. zkey prices are sinking rapidly back to the 2k they were going for before, and the payout for investing into a ton of accounts is diminishing as a result. it will eventually come to the point where zkeys won't become the hot sell, and those with a lot of accounts will find that they can no longer move those keys. we are currently sitting at potentially the last monthly payout, because april will be the last month where a unique tonic is handed out. the next monthly handout will move significantly less gold than this month.

so in conclusion, the THX does not change much of anything. if anything else, this suddenly reshuffling of storage accounts have done much to revive the economy. items move so much faster than before, and it is now quite rare to have to spam for hours to move a certain item. an economy is only dead when it becomes impossible to move items, and GW's economy is nowhere close to that.

DreamWind · Apr 01, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so in conclusion, the XTH does not change much of anything.

You are arguing that XTH doesn't affect things economically. Fine...I don't want to debate the economics of it because I don't give a damn about the economy (even though I think you're wrong)...I'll leave that to people like Martin and wu.

The problem I have is you are completely defending the XTH in every way. When all the other problems are brought up you use sketchy arguments such as the EULA or that it isn't RMT (both of which are terrible IMO) to defend all of them. To me XTH shouldn't exist if we are going by Anet's word or just by the foundations the game was built on. You can say "yea well it does exist so there" but that doesn't mean it should.

moriz · Apr 01, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

if you think XTH is cheating in some way, then you should suggest a solution that removes the cheating aspect. in this case, something that prevents a single person to own a ton of accounts to farm it, or something that makes that practice impractical/useless. XTH itself is perfectly fine.

however, then we get to how it should be enforced. it can be quite difficult to prove whether if a bunch of accounts belong to the same person or not. you can make it so that accounts logged in from the same IP cannot trade with each other, but it would also prevent people in lan-parties from trading also.

maybe a counter that will automatically kick you off the server if you attempt to log into more than say.... 5 different accounts from the same IP address within 2 hours.

I Ithorian I · Apr 01, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I think one of the main issues is the participants that play all month towards earning the qualifier points , then give up there saturday to play a 5 hour long tournament (3 if you only play swiss rounds) have a risk / reward system where you could dedicate all this time and still come out with nothing at the end of the tournament.

If you manage to get through to to the playoffs you can indeed earn up to 2k rp but this is no easy feat and requires skill dedication and hard work.

Now lets say you own 6 accounts (I know people with insane amounts but this seems to be about average) , each account yeilds 100rp predictions - thats 600 total ...

Congratulations you've just earned the same amount of rp is a participant who played all month to earn qualifier points then spent his saturday earning them by finishing in the top 16 (out of 50 or so guilds) and entering the playoff stage by simply dragging a few boxes over into another box , most probably based on the predictions of someone else you copied off a forum

My point is theres no risk/reward for XTH only reward - and by doing so this drives down the prices of zkeys which in turn means the reward for the people actually playing the MAT is reduced.

Why do you think guilds and HB players change names and play in smurfs ? - they dont want you to guess correctly because your directly affecting there reward which they >>> EARN <<<

astro7676 · Apr 01, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

The only people I know of that really want the XTH gone are the ones who do the tourny then sell their keys to Gold/Ecto/Zkey sell websites.. I mean lets face it....the more a Zkey is worth in game....the more a website like that will give you in real life cash...So I say keep the XTH....after all aren't you supposed to be banned for selling to these sites??

I Ithorian I · Apr 01, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by astro7676

The only people I know of that really want the XTH gone are the ones who do the tourny then sell their keys to Gold/Ecto/Zkey sell websites.. I mean lets face it....the more a Zkey is worth in game....the more a website like that will give you in real life cash...So I say keep the XTH....after all aren't you supposed to be banned for selling to these sites??

I would say its more likely the people buying 20+ accounts and making free money every month would be the ones responsible for this ... but hey im just making judgment calls based on no proof like yourself - but how could we argue with such an informed statement.

Martin Alvito · Apr 01, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

moriz,

Gold does not matter as a currency in this game. The cap on the amount in a single trade is too low, and the time price of selling items denominated in gold is too high. Unless you accumulate oodles of low-end stuff and toss up a thread on Sell, you are wasting your time if you bother with reselling these items. Bad players trade in such items anyway and keep these markets on life support, because they're bad. But no one else bothers.

Gold sinks don't matter at the systemic level. The only gold sink that appears to be efficient enough to impact prices these days is Nine Rings. Otherwise, people farm gold, other people farm other stuff, they exchange goods, gold is spent on necessities, and this situation takes care of itself.

This does NOT imply that dumping millions of zkeys into the system is irrelevant. You're thinking about the contents of players' boxes in the wrong way. You don't have to convert a zkey into gold for it to have value, moriz. You can trade a quantity of zkeys directly for stuff you want, or you can trade that quantity of zkeys for ectos, armbraces or miniatures that sellers will take in lieu of zkeys.

What matters to prices is three things: demand, supply, and the capacity constraint. Demand and supply are simply functions of individual players' reservation prices. If a player wants the item and can afford to pay more than an owner's reservation price, a trade happens. Otherwise, the item stays put.

You can treat these reservation prices as exogenously given for the purposes of analysis. In other words, God/Buddha/Allah/whatever tells players how much they want an undedicated Oni. They are willing to spend a fixed amount, but no more, to buy it.

Loosen the capacity constraint, and players can afford to pay more. Trades happen at higher prices, because players with higher reservation prices can now afford to pay those prices. The value associated with items increases, because the true "value" of the item is given by the lowest reservation price of an owner of that item. Therefore, giving players more money results in a sequence of trades that drives up the prices of items.

More importantly, if you give everyone a small quantity of money, that money quickly flows into a very small number of hands. Most people are terrible at trading. Every time some idiot gets swindled, the capacity constraint of a rich player increases. Give the marks more money, and the owner of the carnival makes more money, no? This also drives up systemic prices.

Finally, if it is possible to get large quantities of money by paying large quantities of RL cash, it should be very obvious that those players are going to end up with lots of in-game cash and drive up prices. After all, money is no object if you have access to a printing press and no one else does.

Ithorian makes a valid point on how to solve the problem - if it were costly to play XTH, the problem would be less significant. If you had to run a sequence of quests on an account to participate in XTH every month, and the time price of those quests were just about the time price associated with farming up two dozen zkeys, the problem is solved. Adding 3-4 hours of time sink needed to register for XTH or actually earn the points would sort out the issue nicely.

upier · Apr 01, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

For example If you pay for an AK-47, Cruise missile, or Nuclear Warhead, should you be allowed to enjoy the full benefits of it?
And what was the result of that debate? Well take most of the markets of today as example.
I know that in Most countries owning a semi-automatic rifle is illegal, and for good reason.
Same logic applies. A-net is now the regulatory body for a Society of Gamers.
The argument here is whether or not some of the benefits that you get from purchasing an account should be provided.

Same logic does not apply.
XTH isn't against the rules.

The example that would not fail would include something that an individual can do, but people considered it to be bad and they would love to see made illegal.
Like ... abortion in some countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

... an undedicated Oni ...

This.

What is wrong with the richest people paying more?
I mean, if they don't have enough gold - they need to go out and earn it. Which in return gives them something to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Ithorian I

I think one of the main issues is the participants that play all month towards earning the qualifier points , then give up there saturday to play a 5 hour long tournament (3 if you only play swiss rounds) have a risk / reward system where you could dedicate all this time and still come out with nothing at the end of the tournament.

If you manage to get through to to the playoffs you can indeed earn up to 2k rp but this is no easy feat and requires skill dedication and hard work.

Now lets say you own 6 accounts (I know people with insane amounts but this seems to be about average) , each account yeilds 100rp predictions - thats 600 total ...

Congratulations you've just earned the same amount of rp is a participant who played all month to earn qualifier points then spent his saturday earning them by finishing in the top 16 (out of 50 or so guilds) and entering the playoff stage by simply dragging a few boxes over into another box , most probably based on the predictions of someone else you copied off a forum

My point is theres no risk/reward for XTH only reward - and by doing so this drives down the prices of zkeys which in turn means the reward for the people actually playing the MAT is reduced.

Why do you think guilds and HB players change names and play in smurfs ? - they dont want you to guess correctly because your directly affecting there reward which they >>> EARN <<<

Problem:
People want nice rewards.
Solution:
Stop failing.

Sorry honey but, if you aren't the first, you failed.
I mean, that's kinda the point of a competitive game.
To win.
Otherwise, they are more then welcome to just play the XTH.

wu is me · Apr 01, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if you think XTH is cheating in some way, then you should suggest a solution that removes the cheating aspect. in this case, something that prevents a single person to own a ton of accounts to farm it, or something that makes that practice impractical/useless. XTH itself is perfectly fine.

however, then we get to how it should be enforced. it can be quite difficult to prove whether if a bunch of accounts belong to the same person or not. you can make it so that accounts logged in from the same IP cannot trade with each other, but it would also prevent people in lan-parties from trading also.

maybe a counter that will automatically kick you off the server if you attempt to log into more than say.... 5 different accounts from the same IP address within 2 hours.

Now we;re talking

Personally I was hoping the XTH could give out something of meagre but significant value every month, but not TRP, so that PvP will still be prestigious.

Also, I reckon it'd be better if they only Handed out rewards if the predictions are SPOT ON. Hence whatever unique reward is handed out is made more valuable, accurate predictions are encouraged.

As for individuals with multiple accounts, it's impossible to police, But imo once you remove the link between XTH rewards and PvP rewards everything's good.
=============================================
oh and your economic theory... Anything that 1 is a good store of value, is non perishable, and is liquid may be defined as 'Currency'
If you look on any company's balance sheet, It will have an account for Cash and Cash equivalents. Cash equivalents are things such as bonds, and commonly traded stocks, which can quickly be sold off, and converted to cash, because they are 'liquid'.
Zkeys are liquid (have you seen balth ad1 these days?), non-perishable(like all guild wars items), and they are a good store of value (one stack is worth more in gold than can fit in your bank account) as well as divisible.
Hence, Zkeys can be defined as money
But.... when you mismanage currency, their value can collapse just like the argentine/usd exchange rate, which is what you proclaim that Z-keys will do eventually.
When Z-keys collapse, PvP nation will starve =p

edit: anyways, you say eventually, Z-keys won't have much effect at all, trading will cease, cos they'd be worth so little... WHY NOT KILL IT NOW?? while we're still ahead?

and@ upier.... -illegal in most countries/ abortion in some countries.... In any case, its legal some where and illegal somewhere else right...? example=example
how do you know i don't live in one of the states taht hasn't banned semi automatics yet? :P (tbh i don't know if there are any HAHA)

Toxic OnyX · Apr 01, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

So the whole point of this thread is:

Some players think that buying x amount of accounts for free zkeys each month is cheating (in a sense)

Some players refute this argument as it is upto each individual as to what they wish to spend their money on in the real world and if that is on 10+ versions of the same game to get free monthly cash then that is upto each individual doing this

Some players simply do not remotely care about the whole debate

I place myself in the 2 & 3rd category.

To add a further revelation Guild Wars is a game (so stating economic similes make you look ridiculous tbh), using the rmt or killing the economy arguments is like bolting the door after the horse has escaped, grown up and met up with a mummy horse, had a baby horse and continued frolicing around the meadow until it died of old age (in otherwords the economy has been shot for a long time)

If this is all you truly have to debate then people it is time to open the material covered aperture in your room (a.k.a a window) and look at the outside world as you have simply been playing far too long without a break and need to get out more.

You have been playing 20,000 hours, Please get a life!

(p.s the XTH is there for the fun of it, try to QQ less)

DreamWind · Apr 01, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if you think XTH is cheating in some way, then you should suggest a solution that removes the cheating aspect. in this case, something that prevents a single person to own a ton of accounts to farm it, or something that makes that practice impractical/useless. XTH itself is perfectly fine.

The entire problem here is that Anet does not WANT to enforce it so it won't be enforced. I'm positive one of the reasons they implemented it is to sell more accounts regardless of what it does or doesn't do to their game and regardless of their former commitments to no RMT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Same logic does not apply.
XTH isn't against the rules.

XTH isn't against the rules because Anet just recently said it isn't for them but still is for everybody else, even though they previously said it would always be against the rules for everybody. As long as they come out and admit to everybody that they participate in RMT now, I will be happy.