Curse

go cubs · Mar 23, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

By the same token ectos are only with 40g or something.

Except you can sell to trader for 4k ea?....they are worth avg of 4k each...cause no matter what you can sell for 4k ea...and 100g to merch if you really want...

karen the healer · Mar 23, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I still can not believe people buy multiple accounts just to get more zkeys from the XTH. I see enough people post here to see its true. I guess for anet its a win win situation because they make more money. I just can not see doing that though. I mean damn its a game. I guess Forrest Gump was right, Stupid is as Stupid does.

fb2000 · Mar 23, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by karen the healer

I just can not see doing that though. I mean damn its a game. I guess Forrest Gump was right, Stupid is as Stupid does.

Why not? You could argue the same over the original purchase

why spend money on a game?

Having multiple accounts is always a BIG help with MMORPGs

karen the healer · Mar 23, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I can see buying the game and enjoy playing it, but to buy multiple copies of the game like 10, 20, or 100. Come on give me a break. Thats like going to a movie and buying every ticket in the theater. If buying multiple accounts is a big help, all I can say is Anet Loves You!

karen the healer · Mar 23, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I dont mean to start a dispute. I could care less what anyone does. Just found it hard to believe buying accounts for more zkeys.

snaek · Mar 23, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by go_cubs

Except you can sell to trader for 4k ea?....they are worth avg of 4k each...cause no matter what you can sell for 4k ea...and 100g to merch if you really want...

if i'm not mistaken, npc price works by supply/demand. so if 10 million ectos were placed into the economy similar to zkeys, the npc would eventually buy/sell ectos @ 100g each.

moriz · Mar 23, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Well, since they all have a merch price, around ten million gold would be added to the economy. Not a big deal, given the amount that is already in circulation.

It doesn't have to be the case that the item can be tradered or merched to have an impact on total currency in circulation. If players value 5 points towards the Zaishen title at 3k and the average value of the chest drop is 1k (accounting for outliers that are worth oodles), then the intrinsic value of a zkey is indeed 4k.

You continue to miss this fact. Gold is virtually worthless except for aesthetic purposes. (Yes, there are limited industrial uses.) Yet people still pay over a thousand dollars an ounce for the stuff. Why? Because it looks nice, and you can reshape it into just about any form you please.

As for your retort about argument content, there's a difference here. If you don't want the same things that I want, that's fine. I'm arguing that you're losing rather than winning with XTH, and the sad part is that you don't even know it. The short run benefits have blinded you to the long run consequences.

My argument is: a problem exists, this is why it is a problem, and this is the proper solution. Yours is: you're an idiot for caring about this problem, and it isn't a problem anyway. The trouble with the second half of the argument is that you're just wrong (and I'm not the only one telling you this), and the trouble with the first half is that it isn't falsifiable.

Here's why my argument works and yours doesn't: explain why the price of fixed-supply items is skyrocketing right now. You can't with your theory. According to your theory, the prices should be remaining constant. Yet they are not. I can explain this phenomenon with the story that I am telling. This should tell you that zkeys have intrinsic value and that a massive giveaway of zkeys isn't a great idea.

I agree with Sir Skullcrusher that it's time to lock. I am losing my patience with arguing with someone that refuses to accept logic. The previous post indicates that succinctly.

incorrect. my argument was "there ISN'T a problem, and here's why". all you've said over the last little while is "ASSUMING there's a problem, here's what we should do about it". your entire basis of your argument is incorrect, simply because you haven't proven how zkeys themselves actually generate any significant amount of gold in the game engine.

i actually bothered to write a long and detailed explanation of why prices can rise and fall without significant infusion of gold, but i lost connection and it got deleted. but here's the abridged version:

"gold is now more evenly distributed than before. with that, more players can enter the mid-high commodity market (by mid-high, i mean stuff that trades for 75k-100k-ish). with more players chasing after the same amount of goods, the prices for those things will rise"

there you go, the explanation-that-i-am-not-able-to-give according to you.

lastly, i'll go over basic economy one more time, hopefully this time it will sink in to you people:

"a basic economy only needs two things: a roughly fixed amount of currency, and a roughly fixed amount of commodities being traded. in other words, the currency:commodity ratio needs to be kept roughly the same. these two variables, especially for individual items, can change overtime. as long as the ratio remain roughly constant, the economy is in good shape."

your argument effectively boils down to: prices are rising (calling it skyrocketting would be exaggeration of the highest order) because there's more gold being pumped into the economy, we are heading for hyper-inflation.

my argument is: prices are rising for certain items ('cause you know, black dye and ecto are still remaining constant over the last little while), because there are more buyers in those priceranges. there is still roughly the same amount of gold overall, but now more evenly distributed.

given what i've said about zkeys not adding significant amount of gold into the economy, it should be very obvious which argument is more likely to be true.

go cubs · Mar 23, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

if i'm not mistaken, npc price works by supply/demand. so if 10 million ectos were placed into the economy similar to zkeys, the npc would eventually buy/sell ectos @ 100g each.

Hmm i must not have taken it in context again....man i cant pay attention for the life of me...

I say Keep! (until GW2 [If it happens])

Gli · Mar 23, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

your argument effectively boils down to: prices are rising (calling it skyrocketting would be exaggeration of the highest order) because there's more gold being pumped into the economy, we are heading for hyper-inflation.

You're thinking too small. Gold has nothing to do with it. Z-keys are money in and of themselves. Along with ectoplasm, they're the currency of the high-end market. Although it's no concern of most people, or even known to them at all, there's definitely a steep inflation going on there. I'd go as far as to say that some prices are skyrocketing, even.

If on this very day, I'd sell the minipets I bought a month and a half ago, I'd make a 300% profit. I'm not going to for a while though, I'll hold on to them until I can sell them for enough crap to max the zaishen title. I'm not going to shell out real money to get my keys, I'll leave it to others to spend their dollars for my benefit. Go on, buy more accounts, I'm all geared to profit off you. (And if it never happens, no skin off my back, I'll have my minipets.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

given what i've said about zkeys not adding significant amount of gold into the economy, it should be very obvious which argument is more likely to be true.

Given that the effects caused by an ever-growing monthly Z-key influx have nothing to do with gold at all, your argument is pointless.

wu is me · Mar 23, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

incorrect. my argument was "there ISN'T a problem, and here's why". all you've said over the last little while is "ASSUMING there's a problem, here's what we should do about it". your entire basis of your argument is incorrect, simply because you haven't proven how zkeys themselves actually generate any significant amount of gold in the game engine.

i actually bothered to write a long and detailed explanation of why prices can rise and fall without significant infusion of gold, but i lost connection and it got deleted. but here's the abridged version:

"gold is now more evenly distributed than before. with that, more players can enter the mid-high commodity market (by mid-high, i mean stuff that trades for 75k-100k-ish). with more players chasing after the same amount of goods, the prices for those things will rise"

there you go, the explanation-that-i-am-not-able-to-give according to you.

lastly, i'll go over basic economy one more time, hopefully this time it will sink in to you people:

"a basic economy only needs two things: a roughly fixed amount of currency, and a roughly fixed amount of commodities being traded. in other words, the currency:commodity ratio needs to be kept roughly the same. these two variables, especially for individual items, can change overtime. as long as the ratio remain roughly constant, the economy is in good shape."

your argument effectively boils down to: prices are rising (calling it skyrocketting would be exaggeration of the highest order) because there's more gold being pumped into the economy, we are heading for hyper-inflation.

my argument is: prices are rising for certain items ('cause you know, black dye and ecto are still remaining constant over the last little while), because there are more buyers in those priceranges. there is still roughly the same amount of gold overall, but now more evenly distributed.

given what i've said about zkeys not adding significant amount of gold into the economy, it should be very obvious which argument is more likely to be true.

Firstly lemme just say, your quote "a basic economy only needs two things: a roughly fixed amount of currency, and a roughly fixed amount of commodities being traded" I've never heard of anywhere before, and would like to know where you quoted it from.

Also, your idea of ectos, being different to Keys in that ectos can be sold to the merch for 4k is flawed, since ppl can also purchase ecto for the price the merchant is asking. Given the bid/ask spread of the merchant, and the fact that keys when consumed actually generate currency, you could say that ectos are relatively deflationary compared to keys.

Finally I'd like to say that I agree, Keys won't really have a huge impact on the economy in the long term, aside from a small wealth effect, cos at the end of the day, they aren't gonna be worth much, and all key stock that people hold onto won't amount to a tradeable currency of huge value.
Because alot of people will gain the max zaishen title, and far fewer people will be willing to pay for the keys, esp since they get their own trickle of keys every month

HOWEVER I'd really like for you to consider the consequences of the complete devaluation of keys on PvP. Think about it... What your really getting every month isn't a hand out of keys, but it's a handout of Tournament Reward Points, you know, the prize handout you get when you win a tournament in PvP.
What happens when no1 gives a damn about TRP?
If you don't give a damn about PvP, thats fine, but saying that the handing out of Massive amounts of keys every month has no effect on the game is Insluting every1 that does have even a moderate interest in PvP.

Martin Alvito · Mar 24, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

incorrect. my argument was "there ISN'T a problem, and here's why".

I conceded that you were making this argument. I then disproved it. You were clearly making both arguments that I stipulated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

all you've said over the last little while is "ASSUMING there's a problem, here's what we should do about it". your entire basis of your argument is incorrect, simply because you haven't proven how zkeys themselves actually generate any significant amount of gold in the game engine.

I'm going to try this one more time. They are currency for two reasons. First of all, they stack. Second, they have an intrinsic value along two dimensions: 1) +5 points to title track 2) shinies out of z-chest. If players value the +5 to the title track, then zkeys have value. This is all that it takes, even if the shinies from the zchest were worthless. In fact, one can easily argue that they have MORE intrinsic value than ecto, since you can convert very large quantities into something desired by players.

Two things prop up ecto prices: the rare materials trader's buggy code that creates a value plateau around 5k, and the liquidity of the market. This creates stable expectations, ensuring that there are always buyers and sellers and keeping the currency stable. It's the same mechanism that keeps the dollar relatively stable under normal circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

"gold is now more evenly distributed than before. with that, more players can enter the mid-high commodity market (by mid-high, i mean stuff that trades for 75k-100k-ish). with more players chasing after the same amount of goods, the prices for those things will rise"

This is EXACTLY my point! The price of these goods is skyrocketing because of a massive currency influx! Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

"Skyrocketing" is not hyperbolic when you're discussing items doubling in value over the course of a month to two months.

Boneyard Spleeneater · Mar 24, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you want a flame war, you got it.

Don't be silly. I never intended this to break down into something as petty as flaming. We are two people with firm opinions having a discussion, simple as that.

Quote:

...
At numerous times in this game, there have been commonly known farms worth 40k+ per hour. Event item farming still works quite well. You need around 3 million gold to max the three consumables titles. "Lack of time" isn't an excuse here. Can't spend 60-70 hours over the course of four years? Come on.

Your argument boils down to: I want to max titles but I don't want to have to do minimal work to do so. ...

What I'm saying is that I would like the ability to play the game in some fashion other than the most efficient farming method currently on PVX and still have a shot at maxing titles on at least one toon. Since my primary is a Mes, and I spread play among multiple toons, and I like to just mess around sometimes (you know, play the game), it may take folks like me a bit longer to farm the gold and items to max some of our titles. I don't see how it is unreasonable that ANet tosses us a bone once in a while.

After all, we spent $250 for the game, just like everyone else. It's not like I'm asking to make skill titles easier; just a way to lessen the amount of time I spend on parts of the game I couldn't care less about.

Quote:

...What does upset me is the fact that the prices of fixed supply items have gone through the roof,...

Other than a few minis, there are no real fixed items. Everything can be farmed if people were to go out and kill critters.

Quote:

... People are engaging in legalized RMT by purchasing dozens of accounts. This is a clear betrayal of ANet's stance on the matter. It's not OK for players to trade in-game items to one another for real money, but it's OK for ANet to sell in-game items to players for real money?

And here we perhaps we find the real issue. People who are willing to purchase multiple accounts are able to more effectively cash in on this method. We effectively have a gold farming debate. I myself am not necessarily opposed to actual gold farming (although I would never partake). The only reason I have more than one account (and may sign them up for XTH) is for mule purposes. Even though I am no free-market maven, I think that the ZKey boom will eventually play itself out, and people will either use them on the chests, like they were intended.

So another question we could ask is; since ANet doesn't charge a monthly fee, is it more palatable for them to do an end run around that by selling extra accounts for XTH or other such in-game rewards?

Quote:

I think I demonstrated up above that you could have a stack of ectos for about a twenty hour time investment. If you are intelligent enough to make $30 per hour, you should be intelligent enough to recognize that time is money and reallocate your time efficiently to accomplish your goals.

My abilities to earn a living, and the way I choose to game are irrelevant to each other. I can make plenty of money doing raptor farms, and yet I rarely do them because they are not fun. What is most efficient, what is fun, and what ANet did with HoM are not always in perfect coherence. Forgive me if I am willing to exploit the system that is presented to me, and am happy with the status quo.

To be frank, I couldn't care less either way. My interest in ZKeys is solely in the title and the goodies I can get from the chests. If it disappeared tomorrow, I would go about my business just the same, with one less title I could max.

Quote:

Try reading previous posts rather than making unwarranted assumptions.

No assumptions made. I was speaking in a general sense.

I never meant this discussion to be as vitriolic as you apparently assumed it to be (my opening remark aside). No reason we can't keep this civil.

TheHaxor · Mar 24, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

incorrect. my argument was "there ISN'T a problem, and here's why". all you've said over the last little while is "ASSUMING there's a problem, here's what we should do about it". your entire basis of your argument is incorrect, simply because you haven't proven how zkeys themselves actually generate any significant amount of gold in the game engine.

i actually bothered to write a long and detailed explanation of why prices can rise and fall without significant infusion of gold, but i lost connection and it got deleted. but here's the abridged version:

"gold is now more evenly distributed than before. with that, more players can enter the mid-high commodity market (by mid-high, i mean stuff that trades for 75k-100k-ish). with more players chasing after the same amount of goods, the prices for those things will rise"

there you go, the explanation-that-i-am-not-able-to-give according to you.

lastly, i'll go over basic economy one more time, hopefully this time it will sink in to you people:

"a basic economy only needs two things: a roughly fixed amount of currency, and a roughly fixed amount of commodities being traded. in other words, the currency:commodity ratio needs to be kept roughly the same. these two variables, especially for individual items, can change overtime. as long as the ratio remain roughly constant, the economy is in good shape."

your argument effectively boils down to: prices are rising (calling it skyrocketting would be exaggeration of the highest order) because there's more gold being pumped into the economy, we are heading for hyper-inflation.

my argument is: prices are rising for certain items ('cause you know, black dye and ecto are still remaining constant over the last little while), because there are more buyers in those priceranges. there is still roughly the same amount of gold overall, but now more evenly distributed.

given what i've said about zkeys not adding significant amount of gold into the economy, it should be very obvious which argument is more likely to be true.

okay lews

P.S. lolgw

Improvavel · Mar 24, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If on this very day, I'd sell the minipets I bought a month and a half ago, I'd make a 300% profit.

On what mini pets?

1-2 months ago yearly minis like mad king, black beast and rabbit, were selling for 250k-300k+ range. Now they are selling in the 120-250k.

So only mini pets that exist in limited numbers will rise in price, because, they are limited.

Additionally there is a limit for the value of any item - 100k+1750 (whatever is seen as currency).

Martin Alvito · Mar 24, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

Don't be silly. I never intended this to break down into something as petty as flaming. We are two people with firm opinions having a discussion, simple as that.

As you noted at the end, the opener seemed to indicate otherwise. I apologize for the misinterpretation. Happy to keep it civil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

What I'm saying is that I would like the ability to play the game in some fashion other than the most efficient farming method currently on PVX and still have a shot at maxing titles on at least one toon...I don't see how it is unreasonable that ANet tosses us a bone once in a while.

I have no qualms with that. There are better ways to go about it, however. If the problem is the title tracks, the events serve to both keep prices manageable and provide an opportunity to make quick progress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

Other than a few minis, there are no real fixed items. Everything can be farmed if people were to go out and kill critters.

Actually, you just never see the other fixed supply stuff any more. The old unconditional, q7 15^50, and q8s on super-rare skins have pretty much dried up. Customization, plus the fact that stuff like that just won't hit the market because the owners sell to friends rather than on the open market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

Even though I am no free-market maven, I think that the ZKey boom will eventually play itself out, and people will either use them on the chests, like they were intended.

That probably tends to prop up prices on the Zkey. As the price gets low enough, people buy 'em and use 'em, decreasing the supply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneyard Spleeneater

My abilities to earn a living, and the way I choose to game are irrelevant to each other. I can make plenty of money doing raptor farms, and yet I rarely do them because they are not fun. What is most efficient, what is fun, and what ANet did with HoM are not always in perfect coherence. Forgive me if I am willing to exploit the system that is presented to me, and am happy with the status quo.

I can sympathize with that perspective. Clearly ANet did not put HoM in to make people have fun; they put it in to give people goals that keep them playing. All I argue is that eventually the low-end player will become a mid-range player under this system, and will regret the fact that the leap to own nice shinies will have become insurmountable.

moriz · Mar 24, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

I conceded that you were making this argument. I then disproved it. You were clearly making both arguments that I stipulated.

I'm going to try this one more time. They are currency for two reasons. First of all, they stack. Second, they have an intrinsic value along two dimensions: 1) +5 points to title track 2) shinies out of z-chest. If players value the +5 to the title track, then zkeys have value. This is all that it takes, even if the shinies from the zchest were worthless. In fact, one can easily argue that they have MORE intrinsic value than ecto, since you can convert very large quantities into something desired by players.

Two things prop up ecto prices: the rare materials trader's buggy code that creates a value plateau around 5k, and the liquidity of the market. This creates stable expectations, ensuring that there are always buyers and sellers and keeping the currency stable. It's the same mechanism that keeps the dollar relatively stable under normal circumstances.

This is EXACTLY my point! The price of these goods is skyrocketing because of a massive currency influx! Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

"Skyrocketing" is not hyperbolic when you're discussing items doubling in value over the course of a month to two months.

and yet, you still refuse to see that zkeys do not have anything that converts it immediately into gold (as in, there's no npc i can talk to sell my keys for 4k), and whatever good items you get from the chest is worth a maximum of around 300g at a merchant. those items are only worth huge amounts because players are willing to pay that much. this might seem like a problem, until you realize that those gold ultimately came from a monster, or some mats/runes that was dropped from a monster and subsequently sold to the trader. that gold was already in the economy (or in someone's storage) before the rare item ever came into existence. that gold is ALREADY THERE. it is not added JUST BECAUSE a rare item dropped from the chest. ditto for the title also. therefore, the keys do not ADD gold into the economy, it merely shifts it around.

go cubs · Mar 24, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and yet, you still refuse to see that zkeys do not have anything that converts it immediately into gold (as in, there's no npc i can talk to sell my keys for 4k), and whatever good items you get from the chest is worth a maximum of around 300g at a merchant. those items are only worth huge amounts because players are willing to pay that much. this might seem like a problem, until you realize that those gold ultimately came from a monster, or some mats/runes that was dropped from a monster and subsequently sold to the trader. that gold was already in the economy (or in someone's storage) before the rare item ever came into existence. that gold is ALREADY THERE. it is not added JUST BECAUSE a rare item dropped from the chest. ditto for the title also. therefore, the keys do not ADD gold into the economy, it merely shifts it around.

I have to completly agree here...It does just shift money around there is no money "created" unless the keys are used...and if u use 100 keys thats like 30k if u sell to merch...

DreamWind · Mar 24, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by go cubs

I have to completly agree here...It does just shift money around there is no money "created" unless the keys are used...and if u use 100 keys thats like 30k if u sell to merch...

They have the potential to create money...that is all that matters. But the more important point people are trying to get across is that they ARE money, particularly in any kind of high end trades. They don't NEED to add money because they act as it. Welcome to the flawed trading system.

Improvavel · Mar 24, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

They have the potential to create money...that is all that matters. But the more important point people are trying to get across is that they ARE money, particularly in any kind of high end trades. They don't NEED to add money because they act as it. Welcome to the flawed trading system.

Yes they add money. So do mini pets and books.

What value does money have in this game? Nil.

Savio · Mar 24, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes they add money. So do mini pets and books.

How do all three of those add money?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But the more important point people are trying to get across is that they ARE money, particularly in any kind of high end trades. They don't NEED to add money because they act as it. Welcome to the flawed trading system.

So why are zkeys worse than the previous currency of ecto?