Curse

Joseph Spiritmaster · Feb 08, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I kinda give props to rawr and zero of thinking of pulling a draw, way to beat the system!

Someone mention permanantly removing the gold trim. Still doesnt affect the guild players. Taking away a cape is like just changing the color of your armor. Banning them from another tourney, thats more fitting. but taking the cape away does NOT make it so they cant come back and do it again...

Just putting my stance on this out there: I support rawr and zero's use of pulling a draw to maintain their ranks, AND doing it with some flair. I believe every other guild, deep down, is upset that they were'nt smart enough to think of it first. So please, really the only arguement is getting started because other guilds couldn't think of doing it first. (and possibly this post...)

Go rawr and zero, best of luck with your GvG'ing.

Skye Marin · Feb 08, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.

With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason.

I think too much time was wasted on this.

Leman · Feb 08, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

It was a dancing contest! Animations are the same so there couldn't be winners!

Kashrlyyk · Feb 08, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.

And what Teamquitter did was what??? Are you to lazy to read or uncapable of understanding the meaning??

Quote:

We were officially removed from one full season of play because Vanquisher asked Black Rose Gaming to resign (which they didn't).

That is the precedent ANet has set themselves and now they ignore it.

HawkofStorms · Feb 08, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

To all the people screaming foul.... really, what else could a.net have done? The rules were not exactly clear so it seems extreme to ban them (and with smurf guilds, that wouldn't even really do anything).

Dmitri3 · Feb 08, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

This is straight from GW-Wiki

Quote:

Match points are used for pairing and tie-breakers. Each guild earns 3 match points for every match they win, 1 point for any draws, and 0 points for any matches lost. Each guild is assigned an additional 0 to 0.999 match points based on their opponent's match win percentage. In short, these additional match points will be higher when you defeat opponents with a lot of wins than when you beat opponents with a lot of losses. These additional match points are calculated every time after a round, so they don't add up. This means that if the opponent you beat in the first round wins all other rounds your additional match points will rise.

...
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6342/gw781rf7.jpg

Well, it seems there's some merit here. One thing though, rawr couldn't have calculated additional match points other guilds would have gotten at the time they made their decision. For all I know (heard), rawr and zero were all pretty sure they made top 16 at that time.

It also doesn't change the fact that there's some controversy about this and neither team knew they were breaking the rules. I still stand by my opinion that warning is all that was needed here, which Anet delivered by taking away the trims.

Trub · Feb 08, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.

With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason.

I think too much time was wasted on this.

That is the most rational response I have seen in this whole thread.
Thank you Skye.
No harm, no foul.
And, it was kind of funny watching 2 opposing teams conga together..

Bonehead · Feb 08, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

It also doesn't change the fact that there's some controversy about this and neither team knew they were breaking the rules. I still stand by my opinion that warning is all that was needed here, which Anet delivered by taking away the trims.

Ignorance of the law does not make a case. Since trims, anymore, have little value, perhaps ANet should have made it harder for the offending guilds to qualify in the upcoming tournament?

Dmitri3 · Feb 08, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonehead

Ignorance of the law does not make a case. Since trims, anymore, have little value, perhaps ANet should have made it harder for the offending guilds to qualify in the upcoming tournament?

If you asked 1000 GW players before this incident if pulling an intentional draw in GvG is against the rules, I'd bet more that 90% would say no or that they have no idea.

The rules shouldn't be ignored, but if no one knows about them - they shouldn't be enforced either. Oh, most people not following them and not being punished doesn't help either (AT enter and forfeit, /roll in HB, draws in HB, ganking in Halls...)
Besides, there are plenty of dumb laws and rules... I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get you in prison for at least 10 years if I could just review what you did in your life and had access to all these laws.

Quote:

It is illegal to lie down and fall asleep with your shoes on.

I hope you'll get a good laugh out of the laws listed here: http://www.dumblaws.com

lutz · Feb 08, 2009, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I don't think what they did was cheating at all. Fitting then, a nothing punishment for a nothing offense.

With the new VoD system, draws can pretty much only happen if guild lords are never attacked. If Anet wants to remove draws, they can make an arbitrary rule, like "highest rank wins", or "blue team wins". Same, if they want to remove /roll in HB, they can give Dishonourable to teams who quit or /resign in the first 5 minutes. I think they choose not to, because priorities lay elsewhere, which is a pretty good reason.

I think too much time was wasted on this.

Arbitrary rules can be exploited.

Lord Sojar · Feb 09, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation. I don't care if you are in upside down twisted around LSD trip world, it is what it is. Stop trying to twist it to make it seem like the rules were not plain enough.

They intentionally made a draw in a match, without playing the match in any way, shape, or form. They knew this was manipulation, and for anyone to think they didn't makes you foolish and naive. We are talking about [rawr] here... they had their own tournament a while back; they know the game.

The deserve to have their trim permanently removed, no questions asked. Personally, considering the fact they are such a veteran GvG guild, and understood the rules front to back, back to front, and everywhere in between, they honestly should be disqualified from next months MAT as well.

Both of those combined punishments are still laughable, but at least make more of a point that "You lose this for 30 days, but don't have to do anything to earn it back but sit on your asses and wait the 30 days! BAD RAWR!" Cmon people... don't defend people that knew full well what they were doing.

Shmanka · Feb 09, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

....

[rawr] had most likely the worst tie breakers, the guilds they beat ended up with records like 3/3 and 2/4. That is what I am trying to point out. Didn't think I made this illusive at all. The tie breaker allowed them to get in top 16.

In all honesty the first part of the match was played out, and it did seem [zero] had a chance of winning.

M'Aiq The Liar · Feb 09, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I think this seems like a "warning shot." I view it as them saying to both guilds to watch themselves, and sending a message to other guilds that they will act on stuff like this and they are paying attention. If they go in too harsh, then the backlash would be just as bad, I think. Here's hoping they get a good, concrete set of rules and punishments in place for if this happens again.

Shadowmoon · Feb 09, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

In all honesty the first part of the match was played out, and it did seem [zero] had a chance of winning.

Wasn't rawr also a man down, given zero even more of an advantage. Seems like zero lost alot due to the collaberation

Amnel Ithtirsol · Feb 09, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I'd say fairly good job ANet.
Now if you an just keep an eye on other forms of PvP as well...

MMSDome · Feb 09, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation is ladder manipulation. I don't care if you are in upside down twisted around LSD trip world, it is what it is. Stop trying to twist it to make it seem like the rules were not plain enough.

They intentionally made a draw in a match, without playing the match in any way, shape, or form. They knew this was manipulation, and for anyone to think they didn't makes you foolish and naive. We are talking about [rawr] here... they had their own tournament a while back; they know the game.

The deserve to have their trim permanently removed, no questions asked. Personally, considering the fact they are such a veteran GvG guild, and understood the rules front to back, back to front, and everywhere in between, they honestly should be disqualified from next months MAT as well.

Both of those combined punishments are still laughable, but at least make more of a point that "You lose this for 30 days, but don't have to do anything to earn it back but sit on your asses and wait the 30 days! BAD RAWR!" Cmon people... don't defend people that knew full well what they were doing.

How is it ladder manipulation of the ladder rankings didnt even change? Stop making no sense

Lord Sojar · Feb 09, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

How is it ladder manipulation of the ladder rankings didnt even change? Stop making no sense

Tournament ladder, not guild ladder. Now I am done caring.

DreamWind · Feb 09, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Tournament ladder, not guild ladder. Now I am done caring.

Manipulation is generally considered conceding or trying to get others to concede, with some form of compensation being the worst case scenarios. There is no mention of draws in the rules, and draws are generally considered normal in most swiss formats. This is particularly true in a system that Anet created, where draws are not only possible, but easy to do.

Lord Sojar · Feb 09, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 09, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

To all the people screaming foul.... really, what else could a.net have done?

At the minimum the harder punishment than they gave Teamquitter, who did not succeed in cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

We tried to make a decision that was as fair as possible not just for the guilds involved, but for the entire community.

I don´t see how that is fair to Teamquitter or the community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.

The fact that some don't get that on their second try, makes you wonder.