Curse

Red Sonya · Apr 16, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

Actually, what you are saying is exactly the opposite of what Regina was saying.

This as well is a statement that has no substance.
We do follow this discussion, and there were a couple of good arguments already. We take those discussions to the appropriate people and discuss with them.
I am pretty sure I do not have to emphazise again that not posting != not reading here.
If we would all be living in a perfect world, naming policies would not be necessary at all, because everybody would be sensible and nice to each other.
As we all now, this is utopia.
I also recommend having a look at the naming policies other companies have put in place. There is an interesting link in this thread. You will find that we are way more liberal than you actually might think.

Way to go Martin. I'm witcha man. I turned in about 10 more names today of characters and guild tags. Keep up the good work. You can't get rid of the riffraff on forums, but, you can give them a nice boot in your game and I'm all for that. for this

Quote:

Anet's private resources can be ruled by Anet in any way they see fit and for nearly any reason they choose. Of course, IANAL but I did go to law school.

is the real truth of it all. It's YOUR game, YOUR world and YOUR decisions of what is proper and what isn't. People that obey the rules and they KNOW they rules when they are breaking them deserve what they are getting. Of course they can rush to websites and cry foul and boo hoo and how innocent they are but you and me both know they aren't. Politically correct doesn't matter. Your rules and your decisions are what matters. I'll keep doing my part to help you out too.

Red Sonya · Apr 17, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

slashdot has this and it works. mostly because users get limited amount of votes and they can not vote most of the time,. thus pushing cause is nearly impossible.

Or there is "mageo" model, popular here in czechia:

OP of post has moderator rights over all replies (he can delete posts / assign other thread mods / ban people from it / etc.). It leads to well policed community as there is reciprocity of action; be douche and you are not getting replies (because they know you will abuse op rights; be troll and your comments won't stay on even minute.). Be well behaved and your replies stick and people will reply, even if people disagree because you are letting their posts on in your threads too. If idiot makes interesting thread, someone saner can repost.

I am mod on such board. I only had to solve trolling problems and thread-mod abuse about three times in past 4 years. Bulk of my work is to star good threads to appear on frontpage of server. way to mod

Yes I would call that a full sign of socialism when you cull all those that don't agree with your policy or agenda. Lol so you've got only posters who agree with you that solves nothing and doesn't give any diverse responses to any topics. Only the same mind you could be called the BORG of cyberspace. lol

Lonesamurai · Apr 17, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Well concerning the policies...

we all agreed to the Terms and Conditions and it does say on the box:
"Gameplay experience may change"

So as above, their game, their rules... deal with it or leave

Jecht Scye · Apr 17, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Well concerning the policies...

we all agreed to the Terms and Conditions and it does say on the box:
"Gameplay experience may change"

So as above, their game, their rules... deal with it or leave

That seems shortsighted. You know, the wolf is sacred to my ancestors. Somewhat of a religious figure you might say. Your guild profile under your username has the word wolf in it.

Don't worry, I wouldn't waste my time reporting your guild. However, that does show that their policy doesn't necessarily protect you either. Anything could be construed as offensive if you think hard enough. That is the point.

Lonesamurai · Apr 17, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

That seems shortsighted. You know, the wolf is sacred to my ancestors. Somewhat of a religious figure you might say. Your guild profile under your username has the word wolf in it.

Don't worry, I wouldn't waste my time reporting your guild. However, that does show that their policy doesn't necessarily protect you either. Anything could be construed as offensive if you think hard enough. That is the point.

Its also sacred to me, HENCE the guild name

Eragon Zarroc · Apr 17, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

1. Rebel Rising: Innuendo of rebellious teenagers with rising erections.

2. Bruderschaft Der Verdammnis: (Translated) Brotherhood of the Damned. i'm offended by "Verdammnis"

3. Delta Formation: Reference to formation of fighter jets. fighter jets kill people. offensive.

4. The Cape Is a Lie: Lying about your cape is a form of ladder manipulation.

5. You Failed: Detrimental to my self confidence =(

6. Strait Outta Kamadan: they were born in Lions Arch, tsk tsk

7. Vroom Rulez: vroom(urbandictionay) is a drinking game that young children who play the game should not be subjected to

8. Xxx Final Thrust Xxx: reference to a sexual act in which the male comes to fruition.

9. I Disposable Heros I: suggests that they are using their heros in sexually inappropriate ways and then disposing of them when they are no longer attractive.

10. Edible Granit Pencil: may lead people to eat granite pencils which could be hazardous to their health.

etc etc etc....

Master Fuhon · Apr 17, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Lonesamurai,

I am in the world but not of it. Nor is anything I stated correct merely because I say so, there is no self-righteousness, because to start with there is no proof of self. Self-dom is an existential idea, a comfortable one, for which I find no evidence. I do not concern myself with being comfortable nor do I hide data in the deceptive veil of tact.

If the personal self does not exist, then why have you previously included a story about your neighbor and his need to be called ‘budha’? Titles are markers of personal identity, authority, and importance. If titles are essential to one’s being, then selves are in existence; and self-righteousness is possible as well.

Selves do exist, but they exist between the personal and the universal. To have an experience as a universal self would lead to non-existence. To experience a fully personal self leads to insignificance; which might be considered non-existence as well.

Chthon · Apr 17, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Nonsense. US Constitution has nothing whatsoever to do with this. There is no right to free speech or expression on their network. It's private property. Their rules. Anyone who dislikes it is welcome to leave.

The first amendment says that ''Congress shall make no law..." ANet, NCSoft =/= Congress.

Guild Wars Guru denies total freedom of expression and "speech," too, which is also their right. It's in the rules. You do not have universal freedom of speech or expression anywhere you please.

This is correct. However, an argument could be made that a-net **should** model their speech restrictions on US First Amendment jurisprudence, not because they have to, but because it's a good policy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Way to go Martin. I'm witcha man. I turned in about 10 more names today of characters and guild tags. Keep up the good work. You can't get rid of the riffraff on forums, but, you can give them a nice boot in your game and I'm all for that.

Martin, when a notorious troll agrees with you, it means you should reconsider your position.

Hanging Man · Apr 17, 2009, 03:27 AM // 03:27

I find the whole thing a little too constricting.
I get the whole wanting to appease to all people thing but it has put quite a deadlock on everyone.

i couldn't make a character because his name was Good Old War, a homage to one of my favorite bands. [don't believe me, myspace.com/goodoldwar]

and it sucked, yet on the other side of the fence I can see how war would be an obvious offensive name.

damn doubled bladed swords.

Fitz Rinley · Apr 17, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Nonsense. US Constitution has nothing whatsoever to do with this. There is no right to free speech or expression on their network. It's private property. Their rules. Anyone who dislikes it is welcome to leave.

The first amendment says that ''Congress shall make no law..." ANet, NCSoft =/= Congress.

Guild Wars Guru denies total freedom of expression and "speech," too, which is also their right. It's in the rules. You do not have universal freedom of speech or expression anywhere you please.

Let's start with some real English, and yes I spelled out the wrong word. I typed 'tenant' instead of tenet. What I stated holds. Nor did I contradict ANet's authority as a private property owner. They may throw their party anyway they want. They will soon have very few attendees at that party. And the reason will be a violation of those "tenets" which are customary practice among free peoples. As they assault people for their expressions they violate those tenets. These tenets do have legal standing and social standing in many free countries. The social standing is more important than the legal standing. It is the social standing that will have greater influence and brings greater challenge to their inclusion as members of those societies whom they assail and bannish. Attacking people for expressions which the national authority does not hold inappropriate moves GW outside of the national consensus of ethics. Attacking people for using naming conventions which they themselves practice ingame is incredibly hypocritical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I am in the world but not of it. Nor is anything I stated correct merely because I say so, there is no self-righteousness, because to start with there is no proof of self. Self-dom is an existential idea, a comfortable one, for which I find no evidence. I do not concern myself with being comfortable nor do I hide data in the deceptive veil of tact.

If the personal self does not exist, then why have you previously included a story about your neighbor and his need to be called ‘budha’? Titles are markers of personal identity, authority, and importance. If titles are essential to one’s being, then selves are in existence; and self-righteousness is possible as well.

Selves do exist, but they exist between the personal and the universal. To have an experience as a universal self would lead to non-existence. To experience a fully personal self leads to insignificance; which might be considered non-existence as well.

Excellent argument. Applauded.

I do not find titles essential to being. I find them essential to navigation. The ship/vehicle is merely an onion carrier of the active principle reacting to experience through biological programming. The reaction is not the self. The programming is biological, and external to what would be the self. The travel, plotting, planning - performed by the programming - are not the self. Remove the layers of the onion and you have the empty - what you called 'non-existence' and 'insignificance'.

However, in the navigation of these seas the onion called ANet has smashed into the many onions with titles upon the same seas. The purpose for this is the lack of perspective by those who feel they have some self of significance which must impose itself upon the passage of other onions. Afterall, all onions must look, taste, smell, and feel the same or we cannot possibly consider them onions.

Master Fuhon · Apr 17, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I do not find titles essential to being. I find them essential to navigation. The ship/vehicle is merely an onion carrier of the active principle reacting to experience through biological programming. The reaction is not the self. The programming is biological, and external to what would be the self. The travel, plotting, planning - performed by the programming - are not the self. Remove the layers of the onion and you have the empty - what you called 'non-existence' and 'insignificance'.

However, in the navigation of these seas the onion called ANet has smashed into the many onions with titles upon the same seas. The purpose for this is the lack of perspective by those who feel they have some self of significance which must impose itself upon the passage of other onions. Afterall, all onions must look, taste, smell, and feel the same or we cannot possibly consider them onions.

Titles are a part of personal identity, which is still an essential part to being. However, full self-awareness increases as one becomes more aware of both the universal and personal selves at the same time. Enough evidence exists to indicate to people where only following either the universal or the personal self leads.

The crowd mentality is the experience of the universal self. To fall into the emotions and thoughts of the crowd is to cease to exist. To completely lose one’s label/identity and become part of the crowd is a moment where a person loses sense of the personal self.

The against-the-crowd mentality is the experience of the full personal self. To fall purely into one’s own thoughts and emotions is to take on the viewpoint that the rest of everything ceases to exist. By taking on the opinions that others don’t exist; a person will cease to exist in the minds of those others, losing his own connection with the universal.

All of the problems involved between community and company are related to both of these. The company and the community have often taken a stance as either the crowd mentality or the against-the-crowd mentality. From these simple statements alone you can infer whether either of the two would continue to exist on this path.

Such decisions are up to individuals to make. I only believe that they need to understand where the decisions lead them. Anyone who makes a choice with full understanding of the results is making their own personal right choice; for which they intend to accept the consequences.

Fril Estelin · Apr 17, 2009, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Martin, when a notorious troll agrees with you, it means you should reconsider your position.

For the sake of this thread's survival, I just want to point out one fact (many may have seen it already but just in case...):

s/he's not "agreeing", s/he's "trolling", knowing that each of his/er statements will contribute to more heated debated, instead of the quite nice discussion there's been so far. And Martin talking here is a testament to that.

WoW's naming policy:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/policy/namingp1.html

Quote:

The bottom line is that we want World of Warcraft to be a fun and safe environment for all players. World of Warcraft is an MMORPG, and the key words are "Massively Multiplayer." In playing this game, you will encounter thousands of other players who share different experiences and come from vastly different backgrounds. While a certain name may not be offensive to you, consider the fact that that same name may have a completely different effect on someone else. We've done everything we can to make this a great game but now it's up to you, the players, to breathe life into the world. Choose wisely my friends..

Gun Pierson · Apr 17, 2009, 08:50 AM // 08:50

''... we want World of Warcraft to be a fun and safe environment for all players...''

Maybe we should put a condom on our fingers when we create a name and play in an mmo

Jecht Scye · Apr 17, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I've been given permission to re-post this with editing done from its original form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

This as well is a statement that has no substance.
We do follow this discussion, and there were a couple of good arguments already. We take those discussions to the appropriate people and discuss with them.
I am pretty sure I do not have to emphazise again that not posting != not reading here.

So long as we're speaking in psuedocode:
As far as the people you're providing this game for are concerned, not posting == not reading here.

There are dozens of threads on this website with thousands of posts. Unless you reply to one, people will just assume it's unread. It's not fair, but that is reality. Not to say I expect you to reply to every thread or post, but if you would like it to be known that you have read a thread you may want to consider posting something.

As for Fritz's posts. I fully agree with him on all but one point he brought up. This is ArenaNet's game, we have purchased a license to play it. Therefore, they are legally allowed to police names and whatever else they like on their property. That, by no means gives justification to these asinine policies Martin. Re-evaluate this broken portion of your EULA, and threads like this will disappear.

Fril Estelin · Apr 17, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

There are dozens of threads on this website with thousands of posts. Unless you reply to one, people will just assume it's unread. It's not fair, but that is reality. Not to say I expect you to reply to every thread or post, but if you would like it to be known that you have read a thread you may want to consider posting something.

I think it's a rather different rule:

not replied = not important or we don't have anything to say (either because there's not enough information or we don't want to start discussing it)

replied = important or we have something to say

From Gaile's experience, they know how harsh (if not unfair) Guru can be. So better stay on the safe side, both for them and for us.

Jecht Scye · Apr 17, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I was speaking for the forum browser's perspective. Whether they have something important to say or not, we really don't know if they're reading the thread unless they post. That is just the way it is. Like I said, it's not a fair assumption, but it happens anyway.

JR · Apr 17, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Aside from the few exceptional cases, I am beginning to think that the biggest issue here is communication. As much as I don't like strict naming policies, it is the industry standard for MMOs.

Perhaps a little more obvious communication of the policy and more transparency in its enforcement would help? Maybe it's the logging in to be banned that people object to? Or being left to assume why they are being targeted?

Perhaps an automated email notification with a quick one line reason from the CS rep would solve some of these issues? I assume there is a database where these things are tracked, and CS staff have to enter a reason for taking action. It wouldn't be too much work to have a script which merges that into an automated email and sends it to the registered account email address.

Another solution could be having the naming policy pop up the first time you create a character, in a short bullet point format so people actually read it.

Angelina Collins · Apr 17, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Well concerning the policies...

we all agreed to the Terms and Conditions and it does say on the box:
"Gameplay experience may change"

So as above, their game, their rules... deal with it or leave

I can't agree more with this statement, we did agree to their open ended terms, so we are stuck with their rules and changed that they feel is benifical to the community at large, even know it puts a damper on consumer confidence in their product.

So send them a message, boycott Guild Wars 2. Perhaps after they lose 10's of millons in sales they will rethink their rules and policies.

Fril Estelin · Apr 17, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

Whether they have something important to say or not, we really don't know if they're reading the thread unless they post.

They always tell us that they're reading. Some of them have even been spotted in real-time (you can see at the bottom of the thread the nicknames of people reading the thread at the time when you clicked its link in the forum). What more do you need?

The time when Gaile was very active on Guru is long gone (I seem to recall she said somewhere how much stress being on fansites put on her job, but I can't find the quote anywhere).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Perhaps an automated email notification with a quick one line reason from the CS rep would solve some of these issues? I assume there is a database where these things are tracked, and CS staff have to enter a reason for taking action. It wouldn't be too much work to have a script which merges that into an automated email and sends it to the registered account email address.

Another solution could be having the naming policy pop up the first time you create a character, in a short bullet point format so people actually read it.

2 great ideas, already mentioned on Guru a while ago, which sort of suggest that they don't have the resources to do it (it's probably not as simple as it seems, I've seen many big software where you couldn't add tiny frontend features due to the complexity of the backend).

Btw, the "karma" system does work, when people use it and use it "wisely" (which doesn't mean much by the way, you should have at least enough positive moderations/metamoderations to ensure that the whole system doesn't collapse under the trolling/manipulation pressure). The tool works when the people know how to use it.

FalconDance · Apr 17, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

The email is a good idea except for one thing: there are many of us who have played the game for a long while whose original email (login) is no longer valid or functional. PitA sometimes and Support is absolutely useless and inept when trying to change it (as in, it doesn't seem possible or it requires a complete recoding of the game, to hear them tell it. I know, I've tried now for over two years!) But an email, appreciated though it would be, would also be absolutely useless.