Curse

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

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Originally Posted by FalconDance

Dreamwind, why do you consider what PvErs say "garbage" whilst what PvPers say (apparently) is not? Are we not allowed to have and express our opinions from the different viewpoint? Have you played the game as originally released or are you a PvP player solely or primarily?

Way back when in the time of dinosaurs there was no such thing as unlocking skills and items with Balthazar Faction, so everyone had to PvE. Yep, even the PvP destined players played PvE and played through the game as it was "originally released". Very few people are PvP players solely, most PvP players use PvE toons to PvP with, earned their FoW, cool looking stuff etc the hard way, and PvE to some degree. Some of them are even God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals!

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Perhaps if you (and other PvPers) explained that/how you actually saw the game and skills from both aspects equally due to experience, there'd be less acrimony. Might even lead to a new understanding between the two game styles. But as it is, the 'arguments' tend to be presented from primarily PvErs and primarily PvPers with little apparent overlap.

This is mostly because few people understand that PvP players play PvE too and could mostly be considered PvXers really. Sure there's some that only play PvP (and only ATs prolly lol), but those are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. They don't understand that a lot of PvP players use PvE toons to PvP with either!

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Again, Anet has insisted on binding the two separate games together even though the only things they have in common is armor, weaponry and (most of) skill sets. Not even foe are held in common yet the skills used in both games are essentially the same with a few relatively weak ones being held in reserve for environmental players. Such is not whining or 'garbage spewing'. It is not balance. It is unfortunate fact.

When there wasn't skill splits, that was the closest this game had to a universal balance. ArenaNet is to fault at several points here for PvE balance, notably not reworking enemy + henchmen skill bars in accordance to balance changes, I will agree with that, however the Skill Split is only going to prevent PvE balance as it was mostly implemented to prevent nerfs from PvE ever happening and to give it insane buffs that wouldn't work in an actual balanced game. Stuff like Ether Renewal (infinite health, energy, free spammable 300 HP heals + prots everywhere), Splinter Weapon (greatest AoE damage skill in the game), Shadow Form (god mode), and so on are all helping to prevent PvE from becoming truly balanced, and so will be the case so long as people continue to think that balancing was always done with PvP only in mind (not the case at all) and decry any and every nerf, no matter how good (Soul Reaping, Death Magic, Protective Bond) or well intentioned those changes were for helping to balance PvE.

haggus71 · May 11, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

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Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

5 less energy is great, 10 energy for a monk is quite alot. 1 second is easily twitched, 3/4 you have to get closer to twitch. PaH also removes conditions and reduces the duration of conditions applied in the next few seconds. Conversely divert hexes removes 3 hexes. Yep that's it, if you don't face hexes then it's a completely wasted elite.

Dreamwind i think said it all

It does give a heal, and if you aren't facing hexes in the game, you aren't playing PvP. Mesmer says 'Hi!' And the way she wrote the skill, that 90% reduction in duration was gone, just leaving the removal. I was basing my response on her skill rewrite. Besides, if you don't have E-management ability as a monk, that you can't afford the +5 e, you should quit watching red bars and prot more.

As she wrote the skill change, the two, I think, are not far apart. As PnH is NOW, yes, it is imbalanced.

I do think that Dreamwind has a point where PvE is concerned.

HawkofStorms · May 11, 2009, 03:29 AM // 03:29

This is new.
A 15 page long argument about PvPers being elitists and PvEers being scrubs occurring a week BEFORE the monthly skill update.

You guys just can't wait to start arguing with each other can you?

Apok Omen · May 11, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

This is new.
A 15 page long argument about PvPers being elitists and PvEers being scrubs occurring a week BEFORE the monthly skill update.

You guys just can't wait to start arguing with each other can you?

Actually, this is how it goes:

First, Anet will tell us when to expect the update. When told it is later than expected, the PvPers state how unfair and lame it is. PvE'ers then tell the PvPers to stop whining, then proceed to asking Regina to make sure to nerf RoJ and SF because it is unfair to the monsters.

The PvPers step up, saying how PvEers get everything they want while Anet disregards the PvPers discussions. Then, they ask exactly how long it takes to do a simple fix to the game. PvEers jump the Anet's rescue, and proceed to ask for free storage and another Gwen action figure. PvPers tell PvEers to shut up, stating that PvEers don't understand balance and to keep their noses to raptor farming and fow armor.

This generally goes back and forth, until Regina steps in and answers some random question about Zquests or Storage. Then, the tornado of player-hate continues.

That being said, PvP announcements should be posted in the PvP portion of the thread, Regina.

Thanks

Snow Bunny · May 11, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

This is new.
A 15 page long argument about PvPers being elitists and PvEers being scrubs occurring a week BEFORE the monthly skill update.

You guys just can't wait to start arguing with each other can you?

Mainly because the PvE'ers told the PvPers that they didn't have a right to bitch for having to endure one of the worst metas ever.

Back then · May 11, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Why is it so bad? I've been having a lot of fun trying new builds since i came back.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · May 11, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Meta changes... it keeps things fresh and new... enjoy your Aegis, although it will probably still be there with a 20 second window of non-mass enchanting... enjoy your PnH, although it will still clean off most your hexs and cons... enjoy your LC, although it will still lower healing ability...

Overall from what I heard from others and the way PvP has been working... it doesn't seem like the skills currently used are going to change much... they will be weakened, but not nerfed into oblivion.

I think what we will see for a change to the meta is nerfing of the big Gimmicks (Lich, Blood, IWAY) and an Increase of non used areas (Sword, Rits, Dervs, Para). This will produce more options to choose from instead of 2-3 standard builds with 1 slight role change (like 2nd Mesmer instead of a Ranger or a Shatter Smite instead of a LoD Smite.)

PvP battles needs to be diverse with a lot of options to choose from. If it doesn't, it will become stale and less interesting from a tactical build stand point. Its "run this, because it the Meta, 1337, and everyone else does it!"... and we need to get away from that. Open the game up, and diversify into some newer builds. My Guilds are already looking into those areas... and others should too, and hopefully this update will create that. I wanna see a Sin Split verse a Balence... or a Presser verse a Spike... or a 3-3-2 Split verse a 5-3... I want to see a tactical game... not cookie cutter balenced same build going head to head... save your cookies for your milk and try some new flavors

Charlotte the Harlot · May 11, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I gave up on expecting any real form of balance a long time ago I would rather have a bunch of wacky buffs than a half assed attempt at balancing the game at least its fun to screw around with new skills.

Alleji · May 11, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

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Originally Posted by haggus71

Congrats. You made a Divine Favor version of [skill]Divert Hexes[/skill], only with no health benefit, 5 less E, 1/4 sec shorter cast, and longer recharge time. Durr.

Divert removes conditions only if it removes hexes and costs 10 energy. That makes divert a crappy buildwars elite and PnH a skill that would be useful in every match. Also I like how you mention in passing "5 less E", as if it wasn't a big difference.

Your turn.

EDIT: Oh look, there's more... should've read the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by haggus71

It does give a heal, and if you aren't facing hexes in the game, you aren't playing PvP. Mesmer says 'Hi!'

Excuse me while I use divert hexes to pull this shame off myself. Ok, maybe not that... but dom mesmers don't stack hexes. Neither do water eles (or mesmers). A veil/cure on each monk + smite hex on midline or something similar is enough to deal with diversion and VoR/backfire. Unless you're facing hexway, divert is a waste of an elite.

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Besides, if you don't have E-management ability as a monk, that you can't afford the +5 e, you should quit watching red bars and prot more.

I'm surprised this revolutionary monking technique called "e-management ability" haven't earned your shield of regeneration monk a gold cape yet.

5e and 10e is a HUGE difference for a monk. If you don't realize that you shouldn't even be in this thread talking about balance.

Fitz Rinley · May 11, 2009, 07:39 AM // 07:39

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

All classes should be able to play with a skill emphasis of choice and be able to contribute effectively to group success in a balanced game. That this is not true is proof GW is not balanced.

Wrong. PvE balance is not about all classes being able to play with a skill emphasis of choice and being able to succeed. The sheer facts of PvE are that some classes are not going to be as useful in some areas than other classes. That doesn't mean all classes can't be used however. In particular though some skills are not and SHOULD not be successful at all in some areas. In PvE you KNOW what you are going up against so you should bring specifically what is best for that area. Now if you are arguing that the classes are inbalanced you can focus on that, but you CAN'T say that everybody who brings any skillset they choose should be able to contribute effectively. If you bring a bad skillset, it is your fault you failed and not the balance of the game. Learn from your mistakes and try different things.

Your response is contradictory and shows you did not pay any attention to what I stated. I stated skill emphasis of choice, meaning Skill Line: Domination, Wilderness Survival, Sword, Command, Wind Prayers, Earth Magic, etc. etc. Regardless of skill emphasis of choice the player should be able to contribute successfully anyplace in the game. This would provide balanced play in player expression of concept versus environment. As it is there are entire classes that no matter what skill set you bring they will be utterly useless in 50% or more of a map.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

…my preferred characters, they should just get and do nothing because GW doesn’t like a balanced game where you can bring and use any class and effectively and efficiently take part in play everyplace in the game.

I would argue that in PvE you CAN bring any class and be successful in any part of the game. I could roll any class and beat the game right (Pointless and irrelevant) now if I wanted to. The simple fact is some classes will not be as effective in some areas as others. Just because the community for some reason doesn't like mesmers or ritualists, has no bearing on the fact that mesmers or ritualists can easily roll through the game if they want to.

Hey, what are you spiking your lime-ade with? It seems to be tinting your glasses a rosy shade of pink. You are ignoring the 3.5+ years of experienced play at pulling, hench maneuvering, developed flagging skills, hero queuing, and Vent/TSing//same room communications, skill bar reconstruction, etc. which we have. These are assets also held by those screwing up the skills, and which they do not compensate for when making skill balances. Game balance should be made for those who are at an average not at a superior level of asset achievement. The point to having superior asset achievement isn’t to go cry for mommy and daddy to make the game harder for everyone else, but to turn around and go assist in the new guy's development.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I am quite aware PvP is based almost exclusively on Ego; it is one of the reasons I don’t play it. And in PvP you do know within a day or so after each nerf everyone settles into the new best build nazi power zerg for pounding to the top.

Ego? LoL. The problem here is that PvP has been facing balance problems for quite some time. You clearly did not play PvP in times when the metagame was very good, such as late prophecies and mid factions. The Anet balancers have the idea that manually changing the game themselves is good, but the players being able to change it themselves through metagame evolution is not. What we have in PvP now is whenever Anet makes a balance change, they always screw it up so one build becomes so dominant that you are stupid if you play anything else. That is EXACTLY what will happen with this next update...mark my words on that. Ideally we want lots of builds where playerskill determines success, but Anet's philosophy does not allow it.

First, I meant PvP is based on Ego – its entire meta is based upon Ego. The entire function of PvP is centered around only bothering to support the group because of what ‘I’ the Ego will get out of it. It is Self-centered, Selfish, Self-aggrandizing, … hence Egotistical. It has no socially redeeming value except perhaps to show people the lack of ethical social value in opposition to everyone.

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A. PvE can be beaten with any class and can even be soloed

Really, then do it. Solo, and I mean Solo not H/H, no player assist, - not in one quest, mission, vanqing, etc. everything in PvE with a Paragon. And I want a movie of it – Solo, remember, S o l o!

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B. Most PvE players don't care about balance whether you like it or not

I am more aware of this than 99.9%. One does not adventure to be a part of the resurrection soup. One chooses to be an adventurer to participate in the Hero with a Thousand Faces, even if one does not understand what that is. The paradigm of the hero is one of success and one of attainment through tight spots, not continual defeat, and eventual snicking under 60 dp. This is not my normal MO, but there are spots where it has been unavoidable. (The people I was with got discoed and I did Griff’s War with Myself and 3 heroes. That was a 60 dp fight where I am sure my character looked like he was sacking cats and ran out of paper bags.)

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

In PvE if there is something inbalanced it contributes to your success because you can either use it yourself or ignore it completely. Do you ever wonder why PvE players almost 100% across the board call for buffs but never call for nerfs? It is because if something gets buffed they feel they can use it, but if something gets nerfed they feel it takes an option away. This is so far from the truth its sad. Things get nerfed because they were options that the player SHOULD NOT have.

PvP is based on limiting skills so that the 20th level somethings, with the latest PvX rebuild out of the latest nerf, can button mash their kiting while really doing nothing new with skills that marginally call for shaved-seconds differences in timing for the same sequences of 1-2-3, kite.
PvE is about facing foes up to 33rd level who can effect half a health bar in damage with a crappy skill, and because of super special HM and boss powers unavailable to players, wipe them in another ½ second. (Tarlok comes quickly to mind with that one, but is not the only one that can do this.) This is of course when not facing things that have unique monster skills not available to players at all and against which there are sometimes no real or effective counters unless you bring that one player who runs a X/Y recently dipped in blue honey under a blood red moon in the third quarter of the year of the fire goat when the Hollyhocks were blooming while drinking Ephedra Tea and singing the 4th verse of the Canthan National Anthem.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

It doesn't matter why these things were done...what matters is they NEEDED to be done in PvE and PvP. Old PvE minion masters were stupidly broken...any noob could use them to roll through the game. Same goes for AoE, where ele nukers could basically walk up to any large mob and with a tank could own the mob in about 5 seconds. Ok I'm exagerrating a little bit, but this just goes to my point that PvE players don't want ANYTHING nerfed even if it is for the good of the game. It was CLEAR that these things were bad for the game, yet there was epic whine over their nerfing.

Yes, because successful players are bad for the game. Starving players are the most important. It is after all starving players that will purchase E-bay gold, lose their accounts, and then buy a new one because – well, they knew they shouldn’t buy E-bay gold. Never mind that they were starved into it by nerf after nerf after nerf aimed at ensuring they would be less and less successful.
Further, the main reason I started a Necro was to play an MM who could control a platoon of minions – not to roll through the game, but because the formation looked good. There was art and symmetry and expression – something I won’t expect a non-PvEer to understand.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Further, you act as if the PvP/PvE skill variations are something that has existed since the beginning of the game. It has not. It just started. And since it started nothing has been done that makes PvE skills more effective for PvE players, the exact opposite has happened instead. PvE skills keep getting destroyed – even the ones that were PvE only and not supposed to be touched because PvPers never used them (Ursan, Seed of Life, Pain Inverter, etc.)

It just started? Haven't the skills been split for like a year now? Excuse me if I'm not keeping track of time. Either way it has been LONG ENOUGH for Anet to "balance" their PvE game. PvP players have known for quite some time that Anet has ZERO concept of balance, and PvE players are going to realize this painful fact as well. Instead PvE players are STILL blaming PvP for their problems, when they should really be putting the blame where it belongs...on the people who make the game.

The problem is on the people who make the game because they are only and remain solely concerned with making decisions through the lens of PvP play. And yes, NC West has had time to make appropriate balances to PvE in the last year, to counter the decisions made exclusively for PvP in the previous 2+. They have not done so because PvP is the only priority in their concept of the game.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

And I LoL at your statement that Ursan shouldn't have been touched. It DOESN'T MATTER that PvPers didn't use it, and the fact that you don't see that means that you in reality don't want balance at all. It was CLEAR that Ursan was inbalanced...it allowed anybody with with no thought to what they were using whatsoever to beat nearly any area in the game. Ursan was the exact OPPOSITE of balance, because instead of Anet having to balance the classes properly, they just allowed anybody to use Ursan and FOREGO the entire idea of classes and balance. If you think Ursan in its old form was ok, you don't want balance...you want INBALANCE.

You have no idea what PvE is because you are only a PvPer, no matter how much PvE you may have dabbled in. You also are incapable of paying attention to detail. The inbalance of Ursan was that they did not develop it so that it could be maintained and used by all classes equally. Because they failed to develop it so it could be used by all classes equally they nerfed it into relative uselessness. I have played with it a little outside of the missions for fun, but I don’t really even bother with the blessings in missions. They aren’t important. They aren’t necessary. They aren’t efficient. They aren’t reliable. Other skill bars work much better – til they get destroyed to merely because they are useful to a PvE player.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

That is what GW nerfs are all about, preventing player opportunity and success any time they might occur.

No, they are about removing inbalanced options that shouldn't be in the game so the players have more balanced choices to consider.

Their ‘choices to consider’ never, I repeat Never involve allowance for continued or developing opportunity for player success. They are only for its elimination. They force the community to continually retrench around limited options of classes for amassing currency to purchase wealth so that characters they do like will have half a chance at all of possibly accomplishing something or even barely scraping through the next mission or dungeon with sufficient consets.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

PvP players (or at least TRUE PvP players) don't want rock paper scissors. You should be able to see this by now.

PvP is and always will be an elaborate form of Pong, like all other video games. The challenge for a PvP game is how close to the line for suspending disbelief can the dev.s get before the players cry foul. So, don’t call it rock paper scissors, call it 1-2-3-kite, it’s still the same thing.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

We will always know what the PvE area brings and we will know what counters to bring. On the other hand bringing counters in PvP should be a strategical choice, but not the definite answer.

The difference is this. Within 48 hours of nerf, nothing is effective for replacing the PvE skill used against Boss X who has Super-buffed skill Y and HM level 28, plus super energy, health, and armor never seen in a PvP arena. On the other hand, within 48 hours PvX vetting replaces nerfed super builds for 1-2-3-Kite used in month Prior with new super builds for 1-2-3-Kite, in month present.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is Guild Wars ever since Nightfall (arguably) has had one of two metas. Either a rock paper scissors meta or a meta where one build dominates so hard that there is no hard counter and people are forced to play it.

And this of course is your first description because you are a PvE player in-tune with the concept of the Champion Eternal. You are channeling the Hero of a Thousand Faces and functioning solely in your consideration of the interests of success against the greater evil, the gathering of forces for the final confrontations, and the bequeathing of heritage to the culture you protect…
;P, that is how I know you are a PvPer, and merely dabble in PvE but don’t get it.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

When I watch GvG on observer, this is what most groups look like: 2 Warriors, 2 Monks, 1 Monk (smiter) or Necromancer, 1 Elementalist or Ritualist Flagrunner, 2 Mesmers or 2 Rangers.
So I do not see the described "variety" that PvP players have to face.

Already addressed this.

And the fact remains that 1-2-3-Kite will always be the meta for PvP no matter what they do to the skills because it is inherent to the mechanics of PvP. It is fully unavoidable in GW.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Anet did not split PvP and PvE skills so they could better balance both sides, they split them so the players on both sides would stop whining that the other side was getting in the way.

One, you assume a great deal, if you think I will give them that much credit after the lines they have pulled on us concerning farm codes never existing, the Factions production (and other Factions) fiascoes, and this last month’s especially radiant brands of lunacy. (Which btw – after watching NC West screw over members of my alliance for NC West’s errors and take weeks to fix it, and the bans on people for using bad words in languages they don’t know anything about – no one in my gaming clan considers NC Soft worth buying games from.)

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

1. Some PvE players are still whining that PvP is at fault for the current inbalance.

PvP as a concept is still to blame, and so are the PvPers who waltz over to PvE and insist the PvE game play like their PvP. Changes are still measured against a PvP standard that has never applied, and PvP players still demand it.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

2. The game has arguably never been more inbalanced than now. The game has more periods of balance BEFORE the split in both PvP and PvE.

The imbalance in PvE has less to do with the split, after which PvE needs were ignored, than with other accumulated problems. The Paragon is a pretty and useless class, if it isn’t a God Paragon – it has no party value. I can run it – I don’t particularly want to. The only skills available outside of it that make the Para effective for play are PvE only skills (Ruby Djinn, Ebon Vanguard Assault, Pain Inverter). I know how to run H/H so I am pretty effective with my characters across the board, but I am also aware that there are some that are useless on the merits of the game design virtually game wide.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Anet has catered to PvE players, but if you are a PvE player who cares about balance, you are shit out of luck because you are in the minority. Welcome to the club PvP players have been in for years. Hope you enjoy your stay.

PvP balance is for making skill effectiveness slender enough in comparison that arrangement, button mashing, and kiting control the outcome – or as y’all put it ‘the Skillzzz.’ PvE balance is based upon being able to effectively express the concept of the skill line in social play, regardless of where you are at, and without restriction to some build-nazi's preferred 2-3 classes while you and your friends achieve with appropriate effort, success.

Hyper.nl · May 11, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

After all those years, is it still needed to 'balance' those skills? I mean, after the release of a new chapter, sure, some adjustments may be needed because not everything can be tested perfectly by the testing team.

But it has been years since the release of Nightfall now, even almost two years since GW:EN which hardly brought any new skills. Shouldn't the skill properties be finalized by now?

Alleji · May 11, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

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Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

But it has been years since the release of Nightfall now, even almost two years since GW:EN which hardly brought any new skills. Shouldn't the skill properties be finalized by now?

Well, they were more-or-less finalized until anet started doing their dartboard buffs, which was effectively throwing new skills into the game.

Sure... some good stuff came out of that, like Aura of the lich, VoR, or Ether Prism, but they also created really stupid skills like PnH (and to a lesser extent, LC, which is being kept in check only by PnH).

By putting something ridiculous like PnH in the game, anet did two things:
a) Made all other elite hex removal obsolete
b) Made all hex stack builds obsolete (Yes, I know how many people hate hexes, but I don't think removing a whole strategy from the game was a good move)

Fitz Rinley · May 11, 2009, 08:20 AM // 08:20

It would be nice if Hyper.nl were right though. NC West should fix the skills correctly to provide PvP the blandness they need for balance based on key board manipulation, and PvE the balance they need for class utility across the board for success in social adventuring. Then leave them the Frak alone so we can play. I quit playing AD&D the first time because I got tired of having to buy and learn a new book every month just to have some fun - and that was over 30 years ago. (Ok, they really got stupid about it 25 years ago with 2nd Ed.) NC West is just as ridiculous with monthly nerfs.

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Boy, if only PvP was as easy as 1-2-3 Kite! I suppose Chess is as easy as 1-2-3 Checkmate now too.

You play an online game. Patches happen. I dare you to find a single multiplayer online role-playing game that doesn't have skill updates. (You won't find one.)

Fril Estelin · May 11, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Boy, if only PvP was as easy as 1-2-3 Kite!

You have to admit that it's a quite important part of PvP, especially the high-end. I was amazed to listen to KiSu vent recordings (no offense to KiSu, one of the PvP guild I respect the most for their work at helping others), it was a constant series of 1-2-3 spike. And TA only works if you can spike apparently, which suggests that spiking has become the equivalent of the PvE-skills for PvP. I loved reading the PvP threads about pressure, and you can see that in Observer mode, and PvP surely is not all about spiking, but this is something you rarely see in PvE.

/hopes (for PvPers) this skill balance won't fail :/

Wish Swiftdeath · May 11, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

If I could actually be bothered I would go through your whole post explaining why alot of what you wrote is wrong.

In short, many PvP'ers PvE as well. You should not be blaming PvP'ers when it is clearly Anet's fault they can't balance PvE OR PvP.

Edit: Kisu's vent recordings are kinda meh because they have good and bad players(It's still great they take new players). I'd try listening to the recordings of competitive guilds (like rawr) or http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12753

Fril Estelin · May 11, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

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Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Edit: Kisu's vent recordings are kinda meh because they have good and bad players(It's still great they take new players). I'd try listening to the recordings of competitive guilds (like rawr) or http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12753

Ty for that! QQ is so difficult to browse (spend all my time filtering the crap)...

Red Sonya · May 11, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

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Open the game up, and diversify into some newer builds.

Everytime players come up with new builds the holy trinity pvp players whine and cry and boo hoo that they can't counter it and don't want to and Anet oblidges them and nerfs them into oblivion, Iway, Minion Masters, Spike teams of any kind get nerfed to oblivion because the holy trinity war/monk/fire ele don't want to play against that.

I've seen some great fun builds in the Meta like when the Devishers were popular and instead of seeing W/E fricking stupid warriors all the time you saw some new builds with Devishers at the forefront. Then the whinny warriors cried and cried and boo hooed that they weren't at the forefront anymore and Izzy (the ignorant) nerfed dervishers into oblivion.

Everything that beats the holy trinity gets nerfed. You can go back to the very beginning of GW from the very first nerfs to present and you will see that is so. If the skills don't bring in the holy trinity and ONLY the holy trinity rules the tournaments then it gets nerfed. And lord knows Izzy loves rangers because he has them so overpowered with interupts it's not even funny. Not forgetting to mention their emanagement main attribute of expertise reducing the cost of nearly everything to 5e or less.

So it really makes no difference when new builds enter the meta, if the holy trinity can't beat it to a pulp then it will get nerfed.

Lishy · May 11, 2009, 10:44 AM // 10:44

I'll admit that I love PnH for PvE.
But wherever I see it in PvP, including observing Hall of Heroes matches, there's always some overpowered PnH monk =/

Red Sonya · May 11, 2009, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

It would be nice if Hyper.nl were right though. NC West should fix the skills correctly to provide PvP the blandness they need for balance based on key board manipulation, and PvE the balance they need for class utility across the board for success in social adventuring. Then leave them the Frak alone so we can play. I quit playing AD&D the first time because I got tired of having to buy and learn a new book every month just to have some fun - and that was over 30 years ago. (Ok, they really got stupid about it 25 years ago with 2nd Ed.) NC West is just as ridiculous with monthly nerfs.

I think what you overlook about DnD and really all games is the first game made is FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME, then anything made thereafter is FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY. DnD made all those editions and new books for MONEY. You reach a point with your first game sales of hardly any profits. Sooooo, you have to make an EXPANSION or a NEW CHAPTER (remind you of GW anyone?) to make MORE MONEY no longer is it for THE LOVE OF THE GAME. Same thing happened to GW, in the beginning what they put out here was FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME and every chapter and every nerf and every UPDATE (look at this last UPDATE) is for THE LOVE OF MONEY!

People really need to understand these developers DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOU or WHAT YOU WANT! They only give a crap about MONEY and what they can do to GET MORE OF IT OUT OF YOU!. NCsoft really doesn't give a crap about you all they care about is YOUR MONEY. So, they will do things to get SOME of YOU to SPEND YOUR MONEY FOOLISHLY. And of course you do it. Enough of you do it to keep them in business while a lot of you must suffer the consequences of GREED.

So, cry me a river cry cry cry no matter what the game will go forward for THE LOVE OF MONEY not for the love of the game or the love of the players.