Curse

Daesu · May 22, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I was also rather caught off by the "fun" catch word in the Dev Update... it seems they've given up on "balancing" PvE, and are simply trying to provide more viable options for PvE players. While this is a positive thing for new PvE and veteran players alike, they are furthering the divide between PvE and PvP. They have said repeatedly there is no new content planned for Guild Wars, so aren't they crippling themselves by making a PvE to PvP change more difficult? PvP doesn't get old the same way PvE does. Sure, you get bored of it after a while, but the nice thing is that the meta changes, you can go into different formats, and that you never know exactly what you'll be playing against. I find it unlikely that players dissatisfied with Guild Wars will be interested in playing Guild Wars 2, and so I think something needs to be done about all of these PvE only changes. People will PvP for years, since Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around, but the four year players won't be happy with PvE in a few years when GW2 is released, and they'll have moved on to other games.

The point is, PvP and PvE are different. Monster skills, monster level, terrain, environment effects that only affect players, more deaths, more monsters than players in a team, etc. etc. If PvE is made to use PvP skills, then builds like discordway would be junk.

You can argue all day about this, but if PvE is suppose to be like PvP then monster fights should be regulated to not have the higher level, not have monster skills, environment effects should go away, and monsters should not have their higher hp and extra energy regen, etc.

It is about time they recognize that GW PvE as it is currently designed is different enough from PvP. Who would have half condition/hex duration automatically in PvP except for PvE bosses? That would be cheating in PvP context. PvE would be like ZaiShen challenge which is alot easier to farm than most places in DoA.

Ariena Najea · May 22, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The point is, PvP is PvE are different. Monster skills, monster level, terrain, environment effects that only affect players, more deaths, more monsters than players in a team, etc. etc. If PvE is made to use PvP skills, then builds like discordway would be junk.

You can argue all day about this, but if PvE is suppose to be like PvP then monster fights should be regulated to not have the higher level, not have monster skills, environment effects should go away, and monsters should not have their higher hp and extra energy regen, etc.

It is about time they recognize that GW PvE as it is currently designed is different enough from PvP. Who would have half condition/hex duration automatically in PvP except for PvE bosses? That would be cheating in PvP context. PvE would be like ZaiShen challenge which is alot easier to farm than most places in DoA.

I'm not saying that the two aren't drastically different formats, or that PvE is only a stepping stone to PvP. My concern is that players interested in both PvE and PvP are going to have an even more difficult time adjusting if the skill divide between PvE and PvP gets worse. The changes between the skill splits need to be better thought out if ANet wants new players in PvP. Some skills were split with a good concept of keeping balance while remaining true to the skill in its previous format. Expert's Dexterity is a perfect example, and while it was over-nerfed for PvP, PvE players will be familiar with the skill and its function should they make the transition and try to use the same in PvP. An example of poor choice would be Aegis, which serves a drastically different role now in PvP. Even skills such as Fragility, which is now split to additionally effect adjacent foes in PvE, will make sense to incoming PvP players.

I'm not suggesting that PvE is altered in any way to become more like a fair and balanced PvP format. Some environmental effects actually make PvP more interesting, such as the lava in Burning Isle, the Miasma in the Meditation Isle and Random Arenas stage, and others. PvE should be different from PvP, and rigged monster and PvE-only skills should exist in order to promote varied gameplay in PvE. My argument is solely that the Skills divide should be minimized.

Daesu · May 22, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I'm not saying that the two aren't drastically different formats, or that PvE is only a stepping stone to PvP. My concern is that players interested in both PvE and PvP are going to have an even more difficult time adjusting if the skill divide between PvE and PvP gets worse. The changes between the skill splits need to be better thought out if ANet wants new players in PvP. Some skills were split with a good concept of keeping balance while remaining true to the skill in its previous format. Expert's Dexterity is a perfect example, and while it was over-nerfed for PvP, PvE players will be familiar with the skill and its function should they make the transition and try to use the same in PvP. An example of poor choice would be Aegis, which serves a drastically different role now in PvP. Even skills such as Fragility, which is now split to additionally effect adjacent foes in PvE, will make sense to incoming PvP players.

I'm not suggesting that PvE is altered in any way to become more like a fair and balanced PvP format. Some environmental effects actually make PvP more interesting, such as the lava in Burning Isle, the Miasma in the Meditation Isle and Random Arenas stage, and others. PvE should be different from PvP, and rigged monster and PvE-only skills should exist in order to promote varied gameplay in PvE. My argument is solely that the Skills divide should be minimized.

On the other hand, there are many PvEers who dont like PvE skills to be nerfed because of a solely PvP reason. Knowing that PvP and PvE are different should justify the fact that PvE needs its own version of skills. Many PvEers are not interested to PvP and rather stick on to high end PvE, ANet should understand and allow them to continue to enjoy PvE. I agree that PvE is NOT just a stepping stone into PvP, in many cases.

Take the soul reaping nerf for Spirits as an example, yes this is going to open a can of worms. That was being exploited by PvP teams but do you really think this should get nerfed for PvE also? There are many other cases where skills were nerfed for both PvE AND PvP for PvP-only reasons. Don't get me started on the mesmer skill nerfs in PvE, for PvP reasons.

If not for the skill divide, ANet would need even MORE PvE-only skills to avoid the complaints from PvEers like what happened to the SR nerf.

Sarevok Thordin · May 22, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

The fun for me is filling my HoM :P

And PvP

Longasc · May 22, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Fun is hunting antelopes with machine guns and jeeps.
Fun is being invincible.
Fun is a guaranteed win.

Something is wrong with fun. :P

Actually not with fun, but what ANet perceives to be fun. Sure, people love gimmicks.
But entirely classes being discriminated for being less useful while a one-trick pony mows through all areas is indeed sad.

Face it, those builds are not used for FUN, they are pure farming builds. Anyone who claims farming over and over is fun should whack his head against a wall.

Felixious · May 22, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Fun is hunting antelopes with machine guns and jeeps.

Far Cry 2, 'nuff said.

Buster · May 22, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Not concerned about what gets balanced or not for GW1 because its been an ongoing process since day 1 and its still the same ole same ole situation. People should be more concerned about GW2 rather than rehashing ideas for GW1.

Jugalo Dano · May 22, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I think anet's statement about SF is garbage just on the fact that there have been far too many farming runs/builds in the past that have been axed for anet to suddenly change it's policy. I used to have fun rune farming ettins, but that was stopped. Blowing up the incubi in Urgoz was fun, but that no longer works. Anet's just leaving it alone to try and hang onto players for as long as possible until gw2. The difference between sf and other farms though is sf can be used to farm almost anywhere, giving it even more reason to get fixed. I bet if bots start running vaettirs it'd get the hammer.

Daesu · May 22, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

If you think about it, from the sales perspective, they can popularize certain campaigns by buffing certain campaign specific classes.

If they give Assassins such unique farming capabilities then people would have to buy Factions if they want to farm like that.

Apollo Smile · May 22, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you think about it, from the sales perspective, they can popularize certain campaigns by buffing certain campaign specific classes.

If they give Assassins such unique farming capabilities then people would have to buy Factions if they want to farm like that.

I think you are looking WAY too deeply into this.

Divine Ashes · May 22, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

I think you are looking WAY too deeply into this.

But he is also right... If you didn't have factions and wanted to farm and be uber rich, then of course you would go out and buy factions just for access to the Assassin class..

immortius · May 22, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Loosing Is Fun!

(guess what game i play now)

Dwarf Fortress.

Apollo Smile · May 22, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Ashes

But he is also right... If you didn't have factions and wanted to farm and be uber rich, then of course you would go out and buy factions just for access to the Assassin class..

Because only assasins can farm, I get ya...

Professor K · May 22, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I'd rather they nerfstick ROJ really. Shadow form getting slammed wont stop Monks and ele from farmin. Farming will NEVER go away completely.

aapo · May 22, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Guild Wars has the best PvP of any MMO around

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

Divine Ashes · May 22, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

Because only assasins can farm, I get ya...

I didn't say that only assassins can farm, nor did I suggest it. UWSC's are probably the current, best way to make a lot of money, and assassins are the main components.

Bryant Again · May 22, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I'd have to agree that this is indeed an accurate depiction of ANet's competition. I'd probably replace the trees with shit, though. WAR and WoW are both retarded CC fests with far more glaring imbalance issues than GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

Do you mean quality PvP can never exist in an MMO?

Longasc · May 23, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felixious

Far Cry 2, 'nuff said.

I was more thinking of some Sheiks.

Ariena Najea · May 23, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was this poster:

I mean seriously, the coveted medal for best PvP in MMO genre? Who goes to buy (edit: NO MONTHLY FEES!!!!) MMO game and expects to find quality PvP?

People pay for WoW (ever seen Blizzard's quarterly reports?), and their PvP is still lame, and even more horribly imbalanced than Guild Wars. Part of my point is that there is no real competition currently, but that may not last in the next few years. A dark-horse MMO could easily come along in the next three years with much more PvP content and drag away NCSoft's customers.

aapo · May 23, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Do you mean quality PvP can never exist in an MMO?

- MMO model sets handicaps needlessly. The genre is meant for those players who want progression and permanence in games, which is diametrically opposite to needs of interesting PvP: equality between players and ability to create modifiers game-by-game basis. Same character who is playing GvG is the same character who can complete quests and slay monsters. Needless to say this kind of approach severely limits possibilities how the game can develop. I'm not saying MMO PvP is impossible, just very unexpected. This is also reflected by amount of players in PvE vs. PvP in Guild Wars.