Curse

pumpkin pie · Jun 02, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

first of all, how did this thread turn into a speed clear of elite area discussion?

secondly, PvP people worry too much. I've stumble across this very old interview with Jeff and Mike. which i've never read before.

It seems that the "more serious" PvP will still be there and it will be balance, and players like me who just wants to go "kick some butt" can go "kick some butt" anytime they want to in the "not so serious" PvP.

zwei2stein · Jun 02, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

That way not finishing the vanquish wouldn´t be so much of a waste of time.

There is reason why NF and Factions mission bonuses require mission competition to count.

the_jos · Jun 02, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I think PvE balance should not be achieved by changing skills but by changing the opposing teams. Just link all the skills to PvP as they used to be.
One thing should be avoided with the skillsets: perma-tanks.

We have Normal Mode and Hard Mode in GW, but this isn't sufficient for the somewhat experienced player. Normal Mode (about the same as now), Hard Mode (about the same difficulty as now, more focus on AI as on raw power) and Extreme Mode.
The difference between Hard Mode and Extreme Mode is mainly the spawns, which should be random balanced double profession teams in a balanced team build. Those foes should be completely aware of the battle field and don't catch aggro the way the current foes do. Limit them somewhat on spike power (AI spots that too fast) and make them work as team. AI knowledge should have improved the last years, so this might be possible.

Changes in Normal Mode should be avoided as much as possible, part of getting better at the game (for the casual PvE player) is learning to understand the spawns and the mechanics. In Hard Mode the overpowered (human) team builds can be countered by adjusting the spawns/environment once in a while. Or changing AI. It's Hard Mode, learn to deal with learning something new sometimes.
In Extreme Mode counters to overpowered builds, including AI changes, could be implemented frequent. See it as the playground for developers to adjust the game with players as live testers. You never know what you encounter as player, yesterday AI reacted A and today they react B. Even tuning some possible overpowered skills could be possible.

When a certain skill proves overpowered it can be nerfed in both PvE and PvP. Developers can learn the effect of nerfs in PvE in Extreme Mode. PvE players are sooner aware of possible changes since those start in Extreme and can be brought down to Hard and Normal if they are a problem in PvP (if they are not, just counter them otherwise). They have some time to seek alternatives then and they know the influence of the change beforehand).
PvP players will also know which skills are looked at and how they might change (I assume decent PvP players will know what skills/builds are too powerfull).
This could start discussions (not sure if you want that) on how to change them best.

But whatever A-net does, they should not listen to their PvE customers too much regarding skill changes. People will be upset anyway, that's how many deal with change.
Just make sure that skill changes that affect Normal Mode a lot are somewhat balanced by changing other parts of the game. It requires more work to maintain for sure, but as long as a company shows that they don't just take away, but also add something in return people are willing to accept a lot of change.

Bryant Again · Jun 02, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Yes, it hurts the "fundamentals" but what alternative is there for the high difficulty areas??

The alternative should be being a good player. If you're not a good player, why are you trying to play in the high difficulty HM areas?

Granted, "being good" these days in GW is pretty easy to achieve, and that's just one of many cracks that needs to be filled. There are numerous problems right now in PvE, and what you've just said above validates that.

Nerfing Ursan wasn't the end-all be-all of fixing PvE. It was just the most scary: it was intentionally implemented by the devs. They developed it to go against everything their game stood for while having it fail at everything they aimed it to do - and that's just frightening.

UnChosen · Jun 02, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The alternative should be being a good player. If you're not a good player, why are you trying to play in the high difficulty HM areas?

Granted, "being good" these days in GW is pretty easy to achieve, and that's just one of many cracks that needs to be filled. There are numerous problems right now in PvE, and what you've just said above validates that.

Nerfing Ursan wasn't the end-all be-all of fixing PvE. It was just the most scary: it was intentionally implemented by the devs. They developed it to go against everything their game stood for while having it fail at everything they aimed it to do - and that's just frightening.

You wouldn't believe just how many group I've been in failed doing Aborstone Z Quest....and everyone in the party had stuff like ROJ and Cry of Pain. There was also a guy I met during the thundershead keep ZQ who said he quit GW before cuz he can't finish that place, and only came back cuz of ZQ...food for thought...

glacialphoenix · Jun 02, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

and everyone in the party had stuff like ROJ

Eh, you ask me, that's your problem right there. My PUG finished it first try.

Avarre · Jun 03, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

first of all, how did this thread turn into a speed clear of elite area discussion?

secondly, PvP people worry too much. I've stumble across this very old interview with Jeff and Mike. which i've never read before.

It seems that the "more serious" PvP will still be there and it will be balance, and players like me who just wants to go "kick some butt" can go "kick some butt" anytime they want to in the "not so serious" PvP.

It's more a question of whether they know how to properly implement and manage 'serious PvP'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The alternative should be being a good player. If you're not a good player, why are you trying to play in the high difficulty HM areas?

How long before someone quotes this confusing a difficulty curve with 'implemented elitism'?

DreamWind · Jun 03, 2009, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default Name

I did no such thing.

The "difficulty" QQing is irrelevant really. If you want dynamic play, do PVP. That's all there is, nothing more nothing less.

I said the majority of PvE players don't want real difficulty. You came back and said perceived difficulty is ok. You didn't deny my claims...you simply added to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default Name

Pissed off customers are not satisfied customers.

If temporarily pissed off customers comes as the result of fixing broken mechanics that will long term make the game better, that is a sacrifice any good company is going to have to make. This is especially true in cases where QQ came from almost no change to ones personal gameplay (as happened many times in the past).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

How long before someone quotes this confusing a difficulty curve with 'implemented elitism'?

Rofl. So true.

UnChosen · Jun 03, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Eh, you ask me, that's your problem right there. My PUG finished it first try.

The day when people stops saying "pugs suck, I rather do everything with my H/h because they are 1000x better" is when it is "my problem"

glacialphoenix · Jun 03, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

The day when people stops saying "pugs suck, I rather do everything with my H/h because they are 1000x better" is when it is "my problem"

*shrug* Go ahead and do it with your heroes/henches. I don't control what you play or how you play.

Way I see it, if people are just counting on ROJ and CoP to see them through... that's not a good sign for the PUG in general.

Burst Cancel · Jun 03, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

CoP destroys face, actually; I have a hard time seeing how teams are failing if most of your members are running it. Given the "in the area" radius, you don't even need to ball the mobs up to make them explode.

haggus71 · Jun 03, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The alternative should be being a good player. If you're not a good player, why are you trying to play in the high difficulty HM areas?

It's the obvious. However, (to get too deep in a game forum) a lot of people have been taught that it's their right to get certain things, that they are entitled to get what they want. When these people play a game, for example, and they can't get into the "elite" missions, because they don't have the skill to compete, they whine about it(since this worked on mommy so well). Anet, like their mom did, gives them what they wanted, namely a win button. First it was Ursan, then other PvE-only skills. Now we have Cryway/RoJ(when the PVX Wiki meta shows a great DERVISH build having RoJ, you know something's wrong).

Most people don't have the experience of a life where there are some things you just need to have skill, or work hard, to achieve. It also makes those high achievements worthless when you water them down.

glacialphoenix · Jun 03, 2009, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

It's the obvious. However, (to get too deep in a game forum) a lot of people have been taught that it's their right to get certain things, that they are entitled to get what they want.

Or they just don't want to believe they're not good enough.

haggus71 · Jun 03, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Denial's not just a river in Egypt.

byteme! · Jun 03, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

This thread could have been answered on the first page;

Step 1) Make Guild Wars 2.
Step 2) Make the skills.
Step 3) Balance for PvP only because it's the largest most important part of GW /sarcasm.
Step 4) Never touch PvE. Ever. Who cares if everything is overpowered, it's PvE. /sarcasm
Step 5) ??? (I still have no friggin clue)
Step 6) Vaporware! Start from scratch again =/ Should've made PvE better in the first place. Where's the profit?!

Fixed for my own clarification. My final version.

fenix · Jun 03, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Only, no. GW was designed around PvP, which was one of the main reasons it was so successful early on. Just because ANet decided to cater for PvErs doesn't mean they have to neglect it in GW2.

And really, we ALL know there's no point balancing PvE, because everyone will whine about their X build or Y farm being nerfed. Just leave it all overpowered and fix balance in PvP - where it matters.

Bryant Again · Jun 03, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

It's the obvious. However, (to get too deep in a game forum) a lot of people have been taught that it's their right to get certain things, that they are entitled to get what they want. When these people play a game, for example, and they can't get into the "elite" missions, because they don't have the skill to compete, they whine about it(since this worked on mommy so well). Anet, like their mom did, gives them what they wanted, namely a win button. First it was Ursan, then other PvE-only skills. Now we have Cryway/RoJ(when the PVX Wiki meta shows a great DERVISH build having RoJ, you know something's wrong).

Most people don't have the experience of a life where there are some things you just need to have skill, or work hard, to achieve. It also makes those high achievements worthless when you water them down.

There's a difference between wanting to see the content (very understandable) and wanting to reap the rewards normally associated with those who have higher skill (not so much).

The former should indeed be listened to, since many would like to explore the area and kill the beasties. The latter? Not so much.

byteme! · Jun 03, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Only, no. GW was designed around PvP, which was one of the main reasons it was so successful early on.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that.

Brett Kuntz · Jun 03, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that.

It's true, and anyone who thinks otherwise was definitely not around the early days of GW.

byteme! · Jun 03, 2009, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

It's true, and anyone who thinks otherwise was definitely not around the early days of GW.

I think otherwise and I was around during the early days. Definitely. Don't let my join date on Guru fool you.

Now what?

Case in point.
I bought GW because it was a casual game.
I bought GW for the pretty graphics.
I bought GW because of the multi-profession functionality.
I bought GW because it had no monthly fee.
I bought GW because I do not like to play games with 24 hours worth of gameplay.
I bought GW because I wanted an RPG-type game.
I bought GW because I wanted a social online game.

I did not buy GW for PvP. I'm not being bias here. This is honestly the truth. I'm completely aware my opinions are subjective but it pisses me off when people think their part of the game is the most important part and everything else is just icing on the cake.

PvP made up a small fraction of the many reasons why people would want to buy GW. Everyone has differing reasons.