Curse

Fril Estelin · Jun 10, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

This story reminds me of how amazed (understatement) I was when I discovered that France (a country quite strong on its ethics of civil liberties) was going to extend its program of restrictions of electronic communications to a point never seen before (not even the UK where an employer can spy on its employee's email).

Everyone quotes the school shooting, but while these do influence the subconscious of everyone in touch with the news, I'm fairly sure that there are a lot of things behind this German affair that we don't know about. Many legislations start with some stories that are local and do not make the news.

Now about the science behind the link videogame-violence. It's 100% obvious that there is no solid evidence, but there'll never be, because it's a psychological matter arising from the use of modern technology, which is not really studied seriously nowadas (it's more important to "make it happen" rather than understand what's happening). Furthermore, it's not about videogames "causing" problems, but accentuating and "externalising" (revealing a problem that was hidden) them . Science will not help draw the line, it has to be drawn by each country and society, even despite globalisation making content worldwide-relevant.

To Anet's credit, they've created a game that departs from WoW(to name only one!)'s business model of addiction. But I want also to point to something important: we, gamers and game creators, need to open our eyes on this matter. We may be comfortable with our relationship with "virtual violence", but it doesn't mean that it's right. Sometimes, you do not realise how the videogame influences you, and it often does. I remember when I taught the use of computers and the Internet to young people who kewn little about it how they often make the same mistakes and do not realise that they actually made one. If no one tells you, you won't believe it after years of (bad) practice.

This story would best be discussed with Germans, not as a sign that the rest of the world is going to copy them. To go back to my original statement about French electronic laws, and to confirm what Martin said to Regina, politicians are often the reason why these things happen. Some have political interests in making the news (the disgusting BNP in the UK...) and have no interest in helping the kids not being influenced by videogames.

bungusmaximus · Jun 10, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

This story would best be discussed with Germans, not as a sign that the rest of the world is going to copy them. To go back to my original statement about French electronic laws, and to confirm what Martin said to Regina, politicians are often the reason why these things happen. Some have political interests in making the news (the disgusting BNP in the UK...) and have no interest in helping the kids not being influenced by videogames.

Censorship is often self-inflicted, politicians only carry out in such a case what the people want. Don't know if this is the case in GErmany though. And yeah, they WANT to ban them. In the Netherlands they want to ban smoking in pubs, but the Judge has other ideas, Trias Politica very ftw ^^

Politicians HAVE to make sure wether their legislation is legally possible, if it isn't theyre just yelling stuff to make a statement.

Fril Estelin · Jun 10, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Censorship is often self-inflicted, politicians only carry out in such a case what the people want. Don't know if this is the case in GErmany though. And yeah, they WANT to ban them. In the Netherlands they want to ban smoking in pubs, but the Judje has other ideas, Trias Politica very ftw ^^

Smoking is different (physical direct damage, sign "smoking kills" on the product itself), but points to an interesting point I forgot to mention: there are physical side-effects of "violent" videogames, but it's not clear if it should warrant any action.

I recently discovered a fascinating piece of scientific work from this blogpost: social networking websites very probably slightly harms the social capabilities of kids using them. This topic was discussed in the House of Lords (higher chamber of UK parliament).

All this points to misunderstandings, both from people not playing games and gamers, because as gamers we're not sympathetic to the idea of videogames influencing us to the point where we're loosing control.

bungusmaximus · Jun 10, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

My point is more like: Politician X can yell stuff, but if Judge Y says it's illegal, politician X can't do a thing.

DreamWind · Jun 10, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

There is no link that I know of between video games and violent behavior. On the other hand, there are links between violent video games/movies/etc, and desensitizing of people. For example...there are things told on the news today (such as murders rapes etc) that would be shocking many years ago. Nowadays most everybody looks at it as standard or even ignores it. We have seen much worse in our entertainment. I suppose its an argument of has society changed and entertainment changed with it or the other way around?

Either way, banning shit is stupid. If you ban video games you are going to have to ban everything, and honestly I'm for not banning much of anything. It pisses me off when governments get involved in the rights of the people...we are actually having similar issues to this in the US with things such as internet gambling. The worst part is the politicians involved almost always do it strictly for political gain and not actually for the good of the people.

Fril Estelin · Jun 10, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

My point is more like: Politician X can yell stuff, but if Judge Y says it's illegal, politician X can't do a thing.

X can "fire" Y (this happened in France and in USA with Bush IIRC) and put someone more friendly to his cause. Furthermore Y is influenced by the society he lives in (laws and constitutions have to be interpreted by human beings), which itself is influenced by X's policy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It pisses me off when governments get involved in the rights of the people...

Societies do not self-regulate, to the extend of going beyond the "law of the strongest". See how China tried (succeeded?) in limiting the number of hours people could play MMOs. When there's a societal problem, politicians HAVE to intervene. Rights and duties go together, for both "sides" (politicians and citizens).

Loki Seiguro · Jun 10, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

WHAT!!!!!

I hope not...seeing as I'm hoping to go to college in Germany and so help me (Insert Religious Being) I'm still going to be playing GW. Even if I have to go to some underground gaming club to do so.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 10, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons which had some of the most violent content. Example: Road Runner dropping anvils on Wiley Coyote's head and so on. I have never in my life done the same to anyone, although the thought might have been enticing. The point is that it is the person's psyche that predicates the effect violent television, movies, books, games, etc has on the actions they take. Games don't kill people. people do.

bungusmaximus · Jun 10, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Societies do not self-regulate, to the extend of going beyond the "law of the strongest". See how China tried (succeeded?) in limiting the number of hours people could play MMOs. When there's a societal problem, politicians HAVE to intervene. Rights and duties go together, for both "sides" (politicians and citizens).

Good point, but different people have different opinions on the word 'problem'. Besides that, things like these should be scientifically backed and proven. And I don't mean proven by a scientist that gets funded by the government :P.

Wether people get violent from games or not is simply not proven beyond reasonable doubt (hence a 7 page thread of discussion). Governments nowadays want so ***ing much control it isn't funny anymore. Nowadays you have the means to monitor people 24/7 with a satellite and zoom in on their dandruff, so there's myriads of people that want to get busy doing it right away.

New and Cutting edge doesn't make it good, look at the H-bomb for example, that was so cutting edge people regretted ever inventing the damn thing.

Funny, I thought GW guru didn't do politics :P

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 10, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons which had some of the most violent content. Example: Road Runner dropping anvils on Wiley Coyote's head and so on. I have never in my life done the same to anyone, although the thought might have been enticing. The point is that it is the person's psyche that predicates the effect violent television, movies, books, games, etc has on the actions they take. Games don't kill people. people do.

/completely agree

I remember those cartoons. Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, Thundercats, Transformers, so on and so forth. All full of animated violence, but I'd say 99% of the kids laughed at yet. Like you, no one I have ever known has re-enacted those actions on anyone, and yet today those same cartoons are 'too violent' for our children to watch. So they give them crap like Spongebob Squarepants.....how the heck is that any better?

AmbientMelody · Jun 10, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

/completely agree

I remember those cartoons. Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, Thundercats, Transformers, so on and so forth. All full of animated violence, but I'd say 99% of the kids laughed at yet. Like you, no one I have ever known has re-enacted those actions on anyone, and yet today those same cartoons are 'too violent' for our children to watch. So they give them crap like Spongebob Squarepants.....how the heck is that any better?

Like you've said, it's lack of parenting, discipline, in home and in school. Today kids are more influenced by the 'street' or 'internet' and since most of the parents in question remain idle to the problem they would rather the government put an idiotic ban instead so they don't have to look after their own children as they grow up.

Eh ...

I just hope today's youth, once they grow up that's it, will be far more reasonable parents having experienced this all kind of shit todays youth is thrown by.

Cirian · Jun 10, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

So, is Germany still a good place to go and work in the games industry?

I think it's a beautiful country, but if the law is going to make things awkward... well I guess I won't be able to work on any FPS :/

They must have a pro-games lobby in Germany surely, so maybe it's nothing to worry about *crosses fingers*

I'd like to work there and check out the festivals and stuff >.<

Fril Estelin · Jun 10, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

And I don't mean proven by a scientist that gets funded by the government :P.

You're right, but it won't happen, because: 1) government only funds what brings "benefits"; 2) scientists mainly seek what brings them funding; 3) this loop is broken by the societal evaluation of what a "benefit" is, and given how successful the gaming industry is, slowing it down is probably not seen as a "benefit" (not even talking about lobbying). The kind of research we're talking about here is also very difficult to create, because it's about commercial products and company do not want to open their doors too much (industrial espionage, added security risks).

The media has a huge responsibility here, exacerbating the school shootings and other dark stories, but not relaying properly the important issues and discussions around them in society. Gamers also have a responsibility as they sometimes react immaturely, as if someone was taken from them (are you buying a game for the violence? is game creativity that bound to violence?). And last, but not least, the gaming industry has a responsibility. It is said to weight more heavily than Hollywood, with tons of money, it should invest part of this money into making sure that the games are indeed "safe" (while reading about the issue, I discovered a few small scientific studies highlighting how the various ratings didn't cover truthfully the reality of games). But like RMT, the industry will only take action when the problem becomes too "visible".

One point I've been thinking for a long while (almost since I began playing GW) is that Anet is not taking enough credit for the impact of their game on society. GW is not so addictive (one of the the reason why there's so much QQing on Guru, more content please!) and emphasizes the fun behind the game (maybe not for you or many Guru-ers, but probably for a majority of people). GW is inspired by art and a deep story, not the fact that we're slaying monsters, and as such takes a very positive stance on the overall design.

Vel · Jun 10, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Today's News:

Quote:

All violent video games to be banned in Germany

Tomorrow's News:

Quote:

V(Violence) rating of Video Games will be reviewed (aka relaxed) effective immediately

Real News:

Quote:

More money for the lobbyists and ministers

RedNova88 · Jun 10, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

it's lack of parenting, discipline, in home and in school

This is the main cause, not video games that are violent. If they feel that it's because of violent video games than they might as well ban the majority of TV shows as well. People that don't understand how the human mind works will immediately jump to something and blame it for recent violence in the community. For Pete's sake the first two video games I played when I was five on the SNES and those were Mortal Combat 2 and Doom.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible for video games to give kids the wrong ideas, but damn, if you think someone is going to get those sort of ideas from a video game they shouldn't be allowed to even know about video games, let alone watch the news or go to school. I feel that this sort of thing will happen in the US eventually as well, considering we already have some grumpy old men trying to get games banned because they'd rather blame a game than actually do something constructive. Violent acts happen, and stupid people blame something other than the ones truly responsible, rather than the parents who are supposedly looking after the child. This isn't news though, people have been trying to get violent games offed since the very beginning. Oh noes! Red pixels! My eyes! Raaaage! RAAAAAGE! Must commit violent acts in real life!

All the hubub about GTA "teaching" someone how to steal a car and kill cops and find a hooker... Well those people are just making excuses, and idiots are falling for it. Postal promotes violent acts? Well yeah, it does, IN THE GAME. I'm not going to decapitate someone in the real world with a shovel and then kick their head down the street like it's a soccer ball.

This just in: 15 yr old boy with family history of abuse and neglect kills parents with crowbar. Half-Life games to be banned.

See how easy it is?

Fril Estelin · Jun 10, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Do we people forget the difference between tv and videogames? Interactivity, which can lead to immersion, which can lead to addiction.

A TV, DVD or book is a piece of work presented like a paint, you watch it thinking about what the author attempted to convey, it's a window into another world so that you get some refreshing experience.

In a game, you walk through this window and endorse the hero's character, you make the story, it becomes (more or less) part of you. Ofc, when you're "grown up" (whatever age that is) you don't have a problem with that unless something in you is going to make the virtual a little bit more real than it should be (it's a subjective line). And worst case scenario, it helps you develop unhealthy habits.

I wonder whether there's been other attempt to tackle videogame violence in Germany, like discussion groups, public ad campaigns, etc.

Winterclaw · Jun 10, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

I was just thinking, if there are any cable TV networks in germany that carry shows like southpark or 24 or anything like that, they should have an all day marathon of those shows.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 10, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Do we people forget the difference between tv and videogames? Interactivity, which can lead to immersion, which can lead to addiction.

A TV, DVD or book is a piece of work presented like a paint, you watch it thinking about what the author attempted to convey, it's a window into another world so that you get some refreshing experience.

In a game, you walk through this window and endorse the hero's character, you make the story, it becomes (more or less) part of you. Ofc, when you're "grown up" (whatever age that is) you don't have a problem with that unless something in you is going to make the virtual a little bit more real than it should be (it's a subjective line). And worst case scenario, it helps you develop unhealthy habits.

I wonder whether there's been other attempt to tackle videogame violence in Germany, like discussion groups, public ad campaigns, etc.

Have you ever watched a young child totally engrossed in a cartoon? They have had campaigns about regulating violence in children's tv programming for years. There were cases where children watched the 3 Stooges and thought it was ok to hit someone in the head with a hammer and so on. Video games are just a further progression of such media.

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Have you ever watched a young child totally engrossed in a cartoon? They have had campaigns about regulating violence in children's tv programming for years. There were cases where children watched the 3 Stooges and thought it was ok to hit someone in the head with a hammer and so on. Video games are just a further progression of such media.

Children are highly impressionable. However, parents have a responsibility. If they see a child playing a very violent game, they should think "Hmm, mabye I shouldn't let them play such a sickening game".

And was there any evidence regarding the mental state of those children?

Also note, children may not be aware of the consequences of hitting someone on the head with a hammer - cartoons certainly won't show any potential significant injury. This is I think, a much more relevant point. Gamers know that shooting someone with an assault rifle will kill them. No matter how many violent games I play, I will never pick up an assault rifle and shoot someone without a very good reason.

Rocky Raccoon · Jun 10, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Children are highly impressionable. However, parents have a responsibility. If they see a child playing a very violent game, they should think "Hmm, mabye I shouldn't let them play such a sickening game".

And was there any evidence regarding the mental state of those children?

Also note, children may not be aware of the consequences of hitting someone on the head with a hammer - cartoons certainly won't show any potential significant injury. This is I think, a much more relevant point. Gamers know that shooting someone with an assault rifle will kill them. No matter how many violent games I play, I will never pick up an assault rifle and shoot someone without a very good reason.

You have no argument from me, I totally agree.