Curse

Smurf Minions · May 26, 2009, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roupe

Primal echoes & Edge of Extinction (EoE), is effective to deploy against the Kursics.

thats was one of the reasons why EoE was nerfed a while back -but its still effective.

not even close to the reason, it was because of the EoE bombs in HA but as you said, primal echoes will kill kurzick monks, as does natures renewal.

refer · May 26, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

It shouldn't be removed but it seriously needs to be improved. I play Luxon usually and Kurzicks have WAY too huge of an advantage. They respawn near Gunter almost instantly (we respawn really far back), they can teleport to other locations (we can't even use their teleporters), have way more NPCs which are better than ours (notice how fast the Luxon warriors disappear), and I think it's more fun at times to play Kurzick since you don't have to target NPCs 24/7. They have more to do but they win much more. I have played on the Kurzick side goofing off, running almost no amber, and almost contributing NOTHING and even with no monks we win, nearly every time. Luxons have to have a flawless team, and even then there isn't enough time usually... Kurzicks only need to defend and stall and get to attack real people, not focus on NPCs. The game should be able to end in a draw too. There should be more incentive to play melee and more real people targeting on the Luxon side. And the turtles are horrible. People can tank them indefinitely if you have the right build. And they only have 1 attack which can be interrupted. And they're so far away to even get and they don't automatically go out when they're back as they should.

I love upier's ideas about the amber thing and draws... maybe they could make it so that both sides get less of a reward if there is a draw. But I think that system would be pretty complicated. It's already enough getting people on the same page, and to introduce it more would make it messy... and I think you would need to have more people to have both sides to run offensive and defense. 12 on each side? 14? 16?

upier · May 26, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Since I can't be bothered to explain this more then once more - I'll just summarize the monk problem at Aspy in this post and then quote it in the future.

There are good builds and there are bad builds.
Bad builds do not matter. If the map is balanced - bad builds just represent a good build that isn't optimized. Which means that the same rules apply for the bad builds as they do for the good ones - just on a level that is really not interesting. It's like comparing the 100m sprint at the Olympics to a 100m sprint of 5 year olds. Unless you are somehow emotionally connected to those 5year olds - those guys can not achieve any kind of greatness. So it's not really worth watching. Or in GW terms - what will be more interesting - watching the mAT finals or watching some non-ranked guilds qualify?

That means, we just need to focus on the good builds.
In GW - there are two kind of builds. A player build and a team build.
A player build is defined by 200 attribute points, a primary and secondary class and 8 skills.
A team build is either defined by (a) player(s) OR, as is the case in all random arenas (or better yet - as it SHOULD be in all random arenas) by luck. As is the case in Aspy.
This leads to the following scenario:
Player A run build A. (As previously noted - we are dealing just with good builds, since, like noted, bad builds are just weak good builds!)
Player B runs build B.
Player C runs build A again.
What the game then does it choose a team build out of the pool of player builds. That's why you end up with a team build that might look like ABBACDAA. Or CCCCDBBA. Or a ton of other variations.
It's a random arena - so getting an "interesting" team build is part of it's charm. But since this is the luck that both sides are blessed (or cursed!) with - we do not need to focus on it. If you get a bad team - make the most out of it - and if the map is balanced and you are a good player - that should show!

So that leaves us with player builds. Keep in mind - these are good builds. Played by competent players (because once again - bad players are just good players that haven't dug themselves out of the hole they are in).
The Kurzick monk problem at Aspy though is that the monk build (which would consist of a few heals, prots, some hex removal (and potentially corpse denial)) isn't as powerful as other options.
It's much, much, MUCH better.
And to make it worse - the Luxon side does not have a comparable super-build. A Luxon super-build would be a build where a player can bring all the needed skills in one bar.
This is because these kind of builds can be negated by the arena they are played in. To simplify it - compare a 4 man offensive build vs. a 4 man build which consists of 3 offensive guys and one defensive guy. The team with only 3 offensive guys will not be able to provide the same damage output as the the 4 man one. And since the goal of the normal battles should be to kill the opposing team - this might pose a problem.
At Aspy - the Kurzick side does not need to kill the Luxon side to win. Which means that the Kurzick can win without actively defeating the Luxon. The Kurzick just need not to die (or better yet - Gunthy just needs to not die!).
That means there is no penalty when the game randomly selects players from the pool of options. Yes, if the game selects a number of monks out of the pool of options that will mean that the team will be REALLY weak offensively. But the Kurzick side does not need to be offensive. So what we end up with is a team build that is REALLY strong in the areas that matter - and really weak in the areas that do not matter. And the more monks you add - the stronger the team gets defensively and the weaker it gets offensively.
So - what happens is that we and up with a random team selection of players on both sides. The Kurzick have a super build that the Luxon do not.
That makes the Kurzick side inherently stronger. Both sides have access to strong builds - but the Kurzick options are stronger.
And since the game randomly selects a team out of the available options - all the Kurzick need to do is OFFER only the best option. If everyone rolls a monk on the Kurzick side - you'll end up in teams with NO offence - but to counter that, you'll end up with defence that can not be penetrated.

What further magnifies this problem is how the map is build.
In GW - the damage dealers are physicals. These guys require a line of sight to do damage. And in Aspy - the monks are able to hide behind a wall, where damage dealers can not reach them.

So what we are left with is the offensive side not being able to use the best offensive options - but even with those options in the game - they simply can not match the best defensive options the Kurzick have to offer.

And if you are unable to see this - well then, you are just bad at Aspy. Because you are just unable to see past the smokescreen that bad players with bad builds put up.

Hugh Manatee · May 26, 2009, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Another idea, why do we have to send the turtles in each round? why not just have them advance on their own after the first wave? And why is it all warriors? why not put a luxon ele in there(they have mind freeze iirc).

Also on the kurzik side, why don't the NPCs between the gates respawn? I always felt if you turned in a refined amber to a keeper, that gate's middle npcs should respawn or be reinforced. The interior of the base should also have the effect that the eternal grove has( the speed boost), so the juggernauts can get around faster, and there should be more of them.

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But the Kurzick side does not need to be offensive.

This is where I think your whole argument is flawed. If nobody can kill the turtles, the luxons just advance. Once they reach the inner circle it's just gg. It's an illusion 8 monks can hold the pressure and keep the gatekeepers and Gunther alive like it's nothing. Turtles keep on bombarding while the 8 luxon players harass the monks. Sooner or later, one or two will go down, leading up to a chain reaction.

Like with everything in this game, you achieve more playing offensively. If I see more than 2-3 monks in a Kurick team I joined, I know we will have a very hard time. The best situation is one monk at each gate, so only 2 monks max in a kurzick team. The other extreme situation is when you start out with no monks at all on Kurzick side which means insta win for Luxons.

Shadow Slave · May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Maybe you should stop trolling ever person who disagrees with you.

Like I said in my post, I actually like Upiers idea. But drama and crap like this makes me hesitant to want to discuss anything with you.

I wasn't trolling - just didn't have time for a full post.

I'm just a little tired of people posting the same old crap about which side has the better players and how

Quote:

it is all about player quality, not the map
if u cant win u should go monking / caster instead of
meleeing there or comes up in any profession with roj

>.> I mean, this is why you can find so many threads about FA balance and updates....every single one just gets derailed by this same old same old.

Is it too much to ask that people put the crap to one side and look objectively at how we might improve FA.

It is imbalanced - that has been established and isn't the debate.

Player skill doesn't even have anything to do with how to balance that map.
When thinking balance you assume both teams are running optimum builds, know what they are doing, and do it well. Then you are able to 'balance' around it.

Kurzicks being able to just /roll defensive or runner build (which you assume they will, because it's the easiest way to victory, and that is what you assume they hope to achieve) and auto-win is a problem.
Melee not being a viable option for the Luxons is a problem.
The Kurzick npcs are far superior and need their skills changing.
Luxon npcs also need their skills looking at.
Kurzicks should have an active goal.
Turtles need to be fixed.
The random nature of teams is a problem at the moment - if things are not 'balanced', Kurzicks have a greater number of viable options that can win them the game with the team they are given...i.e Run Amber, Kill or Stall turtles & steal the Command Post creating yet another thing for the Luxons to cap etc etc...

Perhaps when a few of these things have been fixed, then "skill" that everyone keeps harping on about might actually mean someting.

For the purpose of this discussion, it really doesn't.

Quoting myself from the last thread I can recall discussing the game duration ~

Quote:

It is now tilted too heavily in the Kurzicks favor - they've always had the superior Npcs anyway (understandable, because it's your 'fort' I guess..) - Luxons get a bunch of Warriors running towards nothing but counters (i.e. Kurz Ele and Necro Npcs ~)

Not mentioning the moronic AI -

The timer is too short, paired with Npcs that fail - this places heavy reliance on luxon players (random teams says hi), whereas the kurz have their superior Npcs to fall back on.

There is a much greater emphasis on the required types of players and builds needed to succeed on the Luxon side - Kurz can essentially /load 'defensive/running build' and wait for the Timer to run out while sheltered behind their Npcs.

Quote:

Well this is my point - You can't 'team up' to ensure everyone is bringing the right builds. Maybe the solution is to allow teaming. (That actually would be pretty awesome)

Your one build isnt going to win the game if you have several people with ineffective builds - there isn't enough time.

Luxons aren't running the 'right builds' because there is more for them to consider, the reality being, most people just Dont.

^ This is the main point which I think Upier is also trying to illustrate.

upier · May 26, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

This is where I think your whole argument is flawed. If nobody can kill the turtles, the luxons just advance. Once they reach the inner circle it's just gg. It's an illusion 8 monks can hold the pressure and keep the gatekeepers and Gunther alive like it's nothing. Turtles keep on bombarding while the 8 luxon players harass the monks. Sooner or later, one or two will go down, leading up to a chain reaction.

Like with everything in this game, you achieve more playing offensively. If I see more than 2-3 monks in a Kurick team I joined, I know we will have a very hard time. The best situation is one monk at each gate, so only 2 monks max in a kurzick team. The other extreme situation is when you start out with no monks at all on Kurzick side which means insta win for Luxons.

That's the result of people playing badly.
When you are on the defensive side - and you choose to enter the game on an offensive character, you made a bad decision.
I don't see why this shouldn't be "rewarded" with a loss.
It also means you gambled and hoped you get lucky and the team is going to be what you want it to be.
Your luck ran out - it happens on both sides.

If on the other hand you end up in a team with some 3 monks and you lose - that's once again the result of people playing badly. It's the fault of the other 5 players for not going monk - and it's the result of the 3 monks that suck.

Like I said, that's the issue that arises when people play bad and has absolutely nothing to do with the core issue. We can't balance this game based on how bad players play it.
Either they get better, or they are going to lose each time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

It's already enough getting people on the same page, and to introduce it more would make it messy... and I think you would need to have more people to have both sides to run offensive and defense. 12 on each side? 14? 16?

This would just bring us back to where we are now.
Imagine having something like 8 Kurzick monks and 8 guys that get in the way of the 16 Luxon guys. The damage is going to be much more massive and the healing is also going to much more massive.
What needs to be done is keep people pressured so that the bad players crack under it. But if you'd have such insanely big parties - it's would be much easier to piggyback on someone. Which is what happens now - where the (good) monks control the battlefield regardless of how insanely shitty their team-mates are.

But that was one of the things I struggled with too. I just think that adding more players onto the map would do more harm then good, especially since we we still have the option of modifying the NPCs first.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Well this is my point - You can't 'team up' to ensure everyone is bringing the right builds.

This.
Since there are no super-builds on the Luxon side, this means that the guys need to get a super team build to be able to compete. And in a random arena - this is broken. In a random arena - getting lucky and getting a superior team build should mean that your party will have an EASIER way of achieving victory and not actually being able to compete.
Because this means that anyone that does not get lucky - loses by default!

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When you are on the defensive side - and you choose to enter the game on an offensive character, you made a bad decision.

That's another flaw and I'll tell you why. Following your logic, luxons should all go offensive which is not true as it will result in turtles being killed unless you indeed face a team of 8 defensive monks who can't kill the turtles. And like I said above, 8 monks will not hold the pressure.

There is no offensive or defensive side, it just looks that way. Both have offensive goals: Luxons kill Gunther, Kurzicks kill turtles. Both have defensive goals: luxons protect turtle, Kurzicks protect Gunther. And in the middle of the map we have amber mines.

That's why a team with two monks is the ideal situation for both Kurzicks and Luxons.

Shadow Slave · May 26, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Round and round we go.

Kurzicks do not have to kill the turtles. They win by default. They win by ensuring gunther stays alive.

They can achieve this by killing the luxons, yes. But there is more chance of them winning by defending/healing - so ideally (being the key word because we're talking about balance here) this is what they will do.

The turtles dont need to be killed to be stopped dead in their tracks - a ranger stalling the turtle is still playing defensively...as is an Ele nuking the mines securing amber to fix the games - forcing the luxons to rez elsewhere, or by stealing the Command Points.

A luxon monk healing the turtle becomes pretty much useless at that point - they can stand around all game healing the turtle while it goes nowhere and fires into a wall...or they (and this is generally the better option) can let it die and go elsewhere. (However they will not be able to actually kill gunther, so they have to hope that one of their randomly assigned teammates will)

Once the turtles dead you also have to hope someone is going to bother sending it again. Once sent you have to hope its AI isn't going to be abused again.

The Luxons dont even need to ensure that the turtles stay alive - or bother sending them at all. It just helps in their OFFENSIVE objective (which 'Ideally' they take all the necessary steps to achieve).

Neo Atomisk · May 26, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The map is really broken. A balanced map allows that the team that wants to win goes in and TAKES that win. And the map does allow that for Kurzicks.
Luxons on the other hand can only win if the Kurzicks allow them to win. This is achieved by Kurzicks playing poorly.
Otherwise the Luxons can not win.

So, the question is - why does a map where one side is pretty much determined to lose needs a critical mass of players?

Well yes, the skill of a team depends on whether they win or lose.
I think HA/GvG should be removed because all the noobs go to HA and GvG during that day, and them being good or bad causes a team to win or lose. :|

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Kurzicks do not have to kill the turtles. They win by default. They win by ensuring gunther stays alive.

They do need to kill the turtles or they'll get hammered in the inner circle. If two turtles are firing at that point it's very hard to keep gunther alive. And 8 monks won't do the trick either.

A turtle that's being stuck is something else, but jugs get stuck at the stairs too. Both these issues should be solved.

evenfall · May 26, 2009, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Anyone remembered that Fort Aspenwood was considered to be in favor of Luxons for a long period of time since early Factions (just do a search and you can see a number of threads complaining about how it is an easy win for luxons).

The turning point seems to be the tweak to the turtle's /warriors' aggro radius and AI.

Shadow Slave · May 26, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

No, they do not need to kill the turtles. It is not a condition they need to meet in order to win the game.

If the turtles make it into the base, Kurzicks haven't been playing to win.

Im not talking about them getting 'stuck' in some wierd glitch. I'm talking about Kurzick players actively exploiting the AI of the turtles - which is a perfectly viable defensive tactic atm.

...and if the Kurzicks have "8 monks" and the turtles get in - they either fail, or we have reached the holy grail of balance lol.

Edit:

Sigh...No, it is not a 'condition' to win the game. They win by default. They lose if Gunther dies.

Someone else can discuss this with you if you want to continue.

Edit2:

Quote:

Condition: A circumstance indispensable to some result; prerequisite; that on which something else is contingent

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

No, they do not need to kill the turtles. It is not a condition they need to meet in order to win the game.

It's a condition to meet to not loose the game. Which is the same as killing turtles = win.

We can debate this endlessly, but I'm not convinced by Upier or your arguments. It would be nice to hear how Anet sees things on the subject.

EDIT: The 'Kurzicks win by default' argument is only true if Luxons don't play at all when a match starts.

Xenomortis · May 26, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

The turtles do not need to die for the Kurzick's to win. A single character can stand still at particular points and the Turtles will just fire at them and not move.
3 monks at each gate may also be able to keep the NPCs alive indefinitly, but I havn't observed that.

The only necessary (and sufficient) condition for a Kurzick victory is Gunther's survival. Necessary conditions for a Luxon victory are the defeat of at least 3 sets of NPCs at the gates and the death of Gunther.
Kurzick NPCs are considerably more durable than the Luxon ones too.

On top of this, the Kurzicks have the ability to harass the Luxon shrines and they can do this very easily.

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Necessary conditions for a Luxon victory are the defeat of at least 3 sets of NPCs at the gates and the death of Gunther.
Kurzick NPCs are considerably more durable than the Luxon ones too.

And you have two walking canons that do aoe damage and strip ench who will do that for you. Also now you say that those kurzick eles, mesmer and necro npc's are stronger than the kurzick warriors? Can't believe that.

The glitch where a turtle can be stopped by one unreachable player should be fixed. But if you mean the ranger who's standing on top of the walls, well I need to heal those or they get bombarded.

But if Anet agrees that it isn't balanced, I'm all for it that they fix it.

Shadow Slave · May 26, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

...if both teams do nothing, who wins? ::::::::::: Default.

It doesnt matter if 300 luxons join the party, unless they specifically kill gunther, even if they kill everything else once and twice again, they still lose.

What do the Kurzicks specifcally need to set out to achieve in order to win? Nothing - now please lets get back on topic.

I cant believe this page has discussed who is the 'offensiv/defensive' team, and whether the turtles need to die in order for the Kurzicks to win.

<3 to Xeno.

Edit: We've been over the inherent weaknesses of the turtles so many times now.

I can't believe you are questioning whether the Eles and Necros are stronger than the luxon warriors now too. Have you played this arena?

thedarkmarine · May 26, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

...if both teams do nothing, who wins? ::::::::::: Default.

...if no team ever does nothing? :::::::::: Trashy argument.

Gun Pierson · May 26, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

...if both teams do nothing, who wins? ::::::::::: Default.

But that won't happen or everybody gets dishonor and a ban on their ass. People play there and it's why I find the default argument pretty weak.

Shadow Slave · May 26, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I'm illustrating what default is. ffs........I'm too tired for this.

Obviously everyone isn't going to do nothing.

Gun, your argument was

Quote:

The 'Kurzicks win by default' argument is only true if Luxons don't play at all when a match starts.

How is that any different.

My point is they have no active goal. The timer fills itself. They have nothing they actually have to achieve in order to win.

I'll come back when some real discussion gets going again......