Curse

Hugh Manatee · May 25, 2009, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I like Upier's suggestion about giving the kurzicks a more active goal. Increase the amount of the weapon each chunk of amber fixes up so they have to run less but eliminate the auto completion. Tone down the turtles siege but fix their AI so they will fire, then move, and not park if something is agro'd. they should only stop if a gate is up. Maybe make the weapon an actual thing you can attack and damage, like the asuran gate in a gate too far quest, and to break a draw whoever repaired or did more damage to it wins.

There IS a trick to playing melee in FA, I use a warrior there all the time.

Basically, it's the whole rest of the teams job to blast the gates down and nuke/range the necromancers and kurz eles, you can either ride the turtles or follow someone with range, once that happens, you destroy a gate keeper in 3 seconds or less. I can't tell you how many times I've chased amber runners through the outer, inner and green gates to take a shot at rawdick and polesucker, resulting in they're deaths(or delaying amber production). Once you learn the patterns and habits of the Kurzick npc's AI you can even plan a melee bar that can hurt them. I can solo a mine on a war, just hit the displacement spirit 2-3 times, heal sig or lions comfort, then gank the cleanser. It's possible to teleport onto a kurz ele, earth shaker it and it's buddies, unleash a hammer spike, then retreat out of any remaining melee hate. Basically a melee that knows what it's doing will own here, but a noob melee will be useless.

The problem is not only to luxon players not play bars that are agressive enough, they just don't use aggressive tactics, and screw around to much outside the gates. Like if a turtle's still alive there's no reason to go take back it's command point if it falls, or a ranger going 1v1 against another ranger instead of turning it's fire on a gate NPC or healer. The worst is when the green gate is down or open, people pussyfoot around outside, let the kurz set upo a defensive shop inside. Now me, everytime the green gate goes down, I death's charge up in there or use whatever speed boost I have to get inside, threaten the keepers, draw attention away from defense at the green NPCs and usually that makes the gate fall, even if I don't kill the keeper.

If every luxon played like I did, got aggressive at the gates, chase other players through open doors, ganked critical NPCs instead of wasting time on tanks or pointless 1v1s we'd win way more often.

Shadow Slave · May 25, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The simple solution... don't play as a melee character.

...Are you kiddin' me?

/Facepalm - Seriously, gtfo.

~
Manatee, you are truly Manly. Indeed there are ways to play Warrior [Melee], but as you state

Quote:

Basically, it's the whole rest of the teams job to blast the gates down and nuke/range the necromancers and kurz eles, once that happens, you destroy a gate keeper in 3 seconds or less.

..and again the age old problem crops up in that you can't organise your teams, you cant ensure your team is doing whats necessary, and you can't even rely on the Turtles.

As such, while you're waiting for the Gates to be broken etc, you are just skirmishing outside killing Amber runners and Mine Cappers - meanwhile, Gunther isn't taking any damage, the Timer is ticking away, and the Kurzick are winning.

Yeh, you can run through when the gates are open -waiting for the npcs to use their problem skills on other targets first etc..but it is by no means fast or in most cases viable.
~~

Not too sure about the Draw mechanic, but something else I was pondering that might increase the odds for the Lux [i.e. balance things] -

Moving Teleport points and Rez spots.

At the moment, Luxons end up pretty gimped if they die while not having any of the Amber mines - (I'll assume you know what I mean, and where they rez) -

Similarly, when rezzing at the Amber Mines, Luxons are still annoyingly far away from the Command Posts meaning (unless you have an IMS) you waste further valuable seconds wandering over there to trigger them - or more commonly, (if you don't do it yourself) they are ignored - tipping the balance even more in favor of the Kurz.

This is literally just off the top of my head, but...

Yellow: Kurz Teleport

Red: Luxon permanent Rez points (Circle = Rocks that need removing)

If the luxons were able to permanently rez at these points, players would be encouraged to send the turtles when available (because more players would hopefully see/notice/care they had respawned), without wasting too much time - yet still near enough to complete the other 'objectives'.

Kurz teleport can be moved so they too still have the option of going for either Mine, far enough away from Lux rez points and turtle path.

If Lux start camping the teleport, Kurz can simply use gates.

Maybe to counter the same kinda thing coming from the Kurz, Lux rez points could have our friendly old Base Defender nearby.

Discuss.

HawkofStorms · May 25, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

How is it imbalanced because some classes shouldn't be used?

That's like saying GvG is imbalanced because sins aren't used in the meta.

bursta91 · May 25, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The map is really broken.

welcome to guild wars

Shadow Slave · May 25, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Or more like saying this game isn't balanced, and Sins are not used in GVG as a result? Owait.

It's not that Melee (lol @ 'Some Classes') *Shouldn't* be used, it's that they 'basically' *Can't* i.e. are rendered useless by most the opposing npcs.

FA doesn't need to be considered against any other format when you're talking balance. FA is FA...and I believe that's what we're discussing.

Bryant Again · May 25, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

How is it imbalanced because some classes shouldn't be used?

That's like saying GvG is imbalanced because sins aren't used in the meta.

In a game like TF2, Counter-Strike, or Battlefield, it would be different. Yes, some situations call for certain classes or set-ups, but you're also allowed to change your class the next time you respawn. Not so much for TF2. You can't change your deck once you draw your hand.

As such, each PvP area needs to allow each class and profession. Otherwise the devs need to put up warning signs in regards to what classes work and which don't.

If Assassins don't work in GvG, does that mean it's imbalanced? Well before we ask that, we look and see if any of the other classes are having problems, or if any classes are primarily used. If there is no other class having difficulties then the problem lies in the profession, not GvG.

Same thing goes for FA. If *all* of the melee classes are having problems, wherein lies the problem? Where's the imbalance? Are some classes more successful in certain areas? It's all about pinpointing *where* the problem is.

The exact same thing can be applied to classes that are doing very well, but just a bit vice versa.

Giga_Gaia · May 25, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So against normal Kurzick teams - a RoJ monky with smite hex/condition, RoD and something like Patient Spirit is probably going to be a much safer option then a full on defensive guy. (What is NOT good though are stuff like Spear of Light/Smite or similar crap. That's just bad.) You are able to provide damage, some healing that no-one really relied on - so you are able to do your job even if you end up getting paired with more monks.

I've played the build you mentioned before (RoJ with RoD/ smite hex/condition and Patient) and it just literally destroys the kurzick npc's (with only ONE skill!) while still having enough utility to keep the turtles up for a long time. This is pretty broken; a support class should not be able to be a jack of all trades AND do it so effectively that RoJ monks can.

Quote:

Luxons rely on luck way more then Kurzicks.
And that's not good.

Other way around from my point of view: the kurzicks needs to rely on luck so that they get 2-3 monks, otherwise they automatically lose.

Seems like your whole complaint about FA is that "kurzicks have monks therefore they win". Well that's nice and all, but there are many, many games I've been in where I've never seen one monk (or healer for that matter) on kurzick. Since this is a random format, I really think you need a new argument on why you think the kurzicks have the advantage.

UnChosen · May 25, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

If anything they need to tone down the rate that the gates can be broken down. Everytime I go out and get an amber with 33% IMS, and run back to the base, all 4 gates gets completely broken down by the turtles and AoE abuse. Which means we need at least 3 runners to be able to keep up with the rate the gates are destroyed. And that is assuming that the mines are always open. Of course that also mean we have not enough people defending.

The only exception is when there are multiple monks stalling long enough for the amber runner to get back, and even then one decent mesmer can ruin everything.

Pretty much everytime I win at kurzick is when I play monk and there are 2 other healers on my team, or luxon had a lot of leechers, or their team is entirely melee/ranger so I can heal from behind gates without a caster moving up and targeting me. AkA, kurzick only wins with luck, while luxon is the imbalanced one.

Shadow Slave · May 25, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Again, anyone still in any doubt about how/why FA is broken should probably visit this thread first http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...37304&page=22&

It is 22 pages long for a reason.

Oh...and RoJ being broken isn't news.

Chocobo1 · May 25, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

It's also due to the fact that Luxons suck.

Before you say anything, I am a luxon.

The majority of Luxon players are bad. Sure Kurzick has a fair load of bad players, but from my experience I see much better use of builds, skills and team work from Kurzick players than from Luxons. I don't know why this is, but I'm just stating what I see.

reaper with no name · May 25, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I almost never play at FA any more, because out of 30-40 matches, I've won about 3 (I play kurzick).

I laugh every time people say that Kurzicks have the advantage. The juggernaut sits there doing nothing most of the time and doesn't respawn, the turtles can nuke everything at range (and aren't as easy to distract as one might think), the gates get destroyed quicker than they can be fixed, and once the luxons get past the gates there is no stopping them. They WILL kill the gatekeepers, and they WILL kill Gunther. The only possible way I can see to win the mission is to have a crapload of healers. But if you're going to assume such ideal conditions for the kurzicks, then you must also assume that the luxons have brought a bunch of spikers that can kill Gunther in spite of the healing.

Arkantos · May 25, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I almost never play at FA any more, because out of 30-40 matches, I've won about 3 (I play kurzick).

I laugh every time people say that Kurzicks have the advantage. The juggernaut sits there doing nothing most of the time and doesn't respawn, the turtles can nuke everything at range (and aren't as easy to distract as one might think), the gates get destroyed quicker than they can be fixed, and once the luxons get past the gates there is no stopping them. They WILL kill the gatekeepers, and they WILL kill Gunther. The only possible way I can see to win the mission is to have a crapload of healers. But if you're going to assume such ideal conditions for the kurzicks, then you must also assume that the luxons have brought a bunch of spikers that can kill Gunther in spite of the healing.

I really don't see how that's possible. Out of the ~25 FA matches I've done at all times of the day in the past 2 weeks, I'm fairly sure I can count the number of losses on one hand.

If a monk is watching the juggernaut, it won't go down easily, and will actually do damage. The turtles are very easy to take down before they breach the two initial breaks unless a monk is watching (which I've seen maybe 2 times). The luxons get to the last gate all the time, and they rarely win. You don't need a crapload of healers, you need one or two decent ones.

Either I'm a frickin amazing player, you play with the worst players and against the best, or you're really over exaggerating.

pumpkin pie · May 25, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Successor of Emperor Kisu is going to reunite all the luxon and kurzicks in about 250 years so stop fighting now and lets go kill Emperor Kisu.

That aside, the maps are not broken, it is the way Arena Net has intended it to be. one side luxon has more advantage the other side kurziks has more advantage. Stop arguing about the maps. You loose some you win some.

upier · May 25, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

I like Upier's suggestion about giving the kurzicks a more active goal. Increase the amount of the weapon each chunk of amber fixes up so they have to run less but eliminate the auto completion.

The problem of removing auto-completion shows when the Luxons camp the amber mines. If they take down EVERYONE that comes close to the mine - the Kurzick can not bring in amber - which will result in a pretty much never-ending battle.
That's going to be bad.
That's why I suggested two counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

The worst is when the green gate is down or open, people pussyfoot around outside, let the kurz set upo a defensive shop inside. Now me, everytime the green gate goes down, I death's charge up in there or use whatever speed boost I have to get inside, threaten the keepers, draw attention away from defense at the green NPCs and usually that makes the gate fall, even if I don't kill the keeper.

If every luxon played like I did, got aggressive at the gates, chase other players through open doors, ganked critical NPCs instead of wasting time on tanks or pointless 1v1s we'd win way more often.

This.
Also, once the green gate goes down - the guys do not fix it IF they are under attack. So, once it goes down, run in, start wanding the NPCS that are not Gunthy (I always forget waht they are called). The guys will understand that they are under attack and refuse to fix the green gate.
Hexes do not count as damage in this case! If you just hex him - he won't see this as damage!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Other way around from my point of view: the kurzicks needs to rely on luck so that they get 2-3 monks, otherwise they automatically lose.

Seems like your whole complaint about FA is that "kurzicks have monks therefore they win". Well that's nice and all, but there are many, many games I've been in where I've never seen one monk (or healer for that matter) on kurzick. Since this is a random format, I really think you need a new argument on why you think the kurzicks have the advantage.

That's "luck" you can control.
Once Kurzicks start playing to win - they'll realize that rolling a monk is the best option. And once every guy in the outpost rolls a monk and enters with that guy - each and every person does everything in their power to have the best team they can. The only luck you need to rely on is that you won't be paired up with morons.
Whereas as a Luxon there is no ONE build to rule them all. You need a pretty balanced party. In a random arena.
What that means you need to hope that Lady Luck smiles down at you and decides to pair you with some monks, some mesmers, some necros, ...
And you still need to rely on the luck of not getting paired up with morons.

Now - Kurzick teams without a monk can still win. But that also means that they have given the Luxons a fair chance. Let's be honest though, that's kinda dumb. I mean, if you are trying to win - you use the best option possible. And if you aren't using that chance - that means you are bad. And why should bad teams win?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

How is it imbalanced because some classes shouldn't be used?

That's like saying GvG is imbalanced because sins aren't used in the meta.

In PvP - there is no CoP.
GW is currently build on a very simple division - physicals are damage dealers and casters support them.
And THAT is why it's broken that the OFFENSIVE side can not really use physicals.

Roupe · May 25, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Primal echoes & Edge of Extinction (EoE), is effective to deploy against the Kursics.

thats was one of the reasons why EoE was nerfed a while back -but its still effective.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 25, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

haha i've just got the idea of syncing 8 bloodspikers on luxons side...would be interesting xD.

xDusT II · May 25, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

The biggest issue I can see with FA is the ability to completely lock up the turtles. It seems pretty stupid that I can go afk at the top of the fort where no one can get me without breaching the inner gates and just lock one sides turtle so that it fires into the wall the whole game.

Crom The Pale · May 25, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

FA is all about the randomness of parties. If you are lucky you get a balanced team if not you get screwed.

I did a fair number of FA matches this weekend and had lots of wins as a Luxon. Some of my losses were do to smart play on the part of the Kurzicks but most were do to bad parties. One such party had 4 rangers and only 1 ele. Great for interupts but with so little dmg one monk was able to keep us from ever killing the Jugernaught.

On the flip side I had 2 matches with all casters, split both times between Eles/Monks/Necos and won both matches in almost record time.

Should party formation be added to Fort Aspenwood?
Would that improve the balance of the matches?

qvtkc · May 25, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Reason why this is even a problem is because of faction and titles. If you didn't have a title to collect points for, you could join whichever side you wanted, attacker or defender.

Lyger · May 25, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I have to agree that something should be done to balance FA. I only play the kurzick side at the moment, and I've only played FA recently for the zquest. The only characters I take in there are my monk or mesmer.

It took a lot longer to get my 9 wins on my mesmer, usually because very few monks seemed to be playing, and the other players did not seem to realise the importance of holding the amber mins and fixing the gates. On the other hand, I got 9 consecutive wins on the last FA zquest on my monk using a spammy Air of Enchantment build, and just guarding npcs. Boring, yes. Effective, yes. I'm not exactly the worlds greatest monk (very very far from it, in fact!), and the build I used is pretty lame - but if I can hold a gate alone just by spamming enchantments on a gate guard elementalist, there is a bit of a problem. Yes, the luxons could have brought some heavy enchantment hate like well of the profane, or someone could have rolled a dom mesmer - but no one did. Then again, just because counters exist, doesn't make the tactic in any way balanced.

The only times I seem to ever lose on my monk are 1: a luxon actually has brought heavy enchant hate, or 2: some muppet decides to open the green gate and run amber when the luxons are knocking at the door, and proceeds to look confused when the NPC's won't accept his/her amber and I get ganked by a team of frustrated luxons.

I'd love to see the map get more balanced, because I have to admit - guarding NPC's is really boring, even if it is a 99.5% chance of winning. I have more fun playing FA as a powerblock mesmer, but a better win rate playing a monk enchantment spammer.