Curse

upier · May 24, 2009, 11:45 AM // 11:45

The map is really broken. A balanced map allows that the team that wants to win goes in and TAKES that win. And the map does allow that for Kurzicks.
Luxons on the other hand can only win if the Kurzicks allow them to win. This is achieved by Kurzicks playing poorly.
Otherwise the Luxons can not win.

So, the question is - why does a map where one side is pretty much determined to lose needs a critical mass of players? In hopes that the stupidity of players that do not know what they are doing on the Kurzick side balances the game?

Aspy needs a massive do-over - otherwise there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the Luxons to play this particular ZQuest. Go VQ an area, do a few AB games or do the PvE daily Zquest on more then one guy instead.
At least that way you wining won't be based on dumb luck.

ajc2123 · May 24, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

If Luxons start actually thinking like PvPers in this map (Rend enchantments + ACTUAL damage builds, not Defy pain silly tanks) Then its balanced. Just like If kurzicks Actually start running support builds to heal, and then others to run amber.

Just a matter of players, the map is balanced fine.

Honestly, I played a lot on both sides and I gotta say, its a LOT easier playing on the luxon side since all you need to do is run a good nuking build, or any kind of damage build, (I bring SH + Mantra of resolve + one enchant removal)

EPO Bot · May 24, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I'm Luxon, but i still don't care. PVP Zquests return more then four times every month anyway. They are easy to ignore or toss aside until you feel like playing them.

As for Aspenwood: I tought the main complaint of that place was Luxon turtles being too powerful. so if both sides complain about imba, i think its balanced enough.

upier · May 24, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

If the map is balanced, then monks need a buff.
If the map is balanced that means that there is a 50/50 % chance of each side winning. And that means that some 3-8 monks should be UNABLE to keep a SINGLE target alive while standing behind a wall where the REAL damage dealers of GW (=physicals) can not reach them.
Yes?

ajc2123 · May 24, 2009, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the map is balanced, then monks need a buff.
If the map is balanced that means that there is a 50/50 % chance of each side winning. And that means that some 3-8 monks should be UNABLE to keep a SINGLE target alive while standing behind a wall where the REAL damage dealers of GW (=physicals) can not reach them.
Yes?

This is balanced just like JQ, RA, AB. It all depends on the team. Be thankful it isn't team organized or you WILL face 8 monks per match.

You have NO idea how many bad players there are on the kurzick side. I can give you at least 90 names of them (My guild >_>) Anything thats random is balanced.

Also of COURSE your going to get more faction from Vanquishing. Its faster then any PvP format now. Thats just something you gotta live with.

I have YET to find a team with more then 2 monks that WERENT RoJ smiters with NO healing whatsoever

Lhim · May 24, 2009, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

As for Aspenwood: I tought the main complaint of that place was Luxon turtles being too powerful. so if both sides complain about imba, i think its balanced enough.

They still fire into walls. That enchant removal won't do any good if they won't focus fire on the npc's. So that's not too powerful at all. It's quite easy to win on the Kurzick side.

EPO Bot · May 24, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by deank81

They still fire into walls. That enchant removal won't do any good if they won't focus fire on the npc's. So that's not too powerful at all. It's quite easy to win on the Kurzick side.

Take out that annoying ranger on the wall perhaps?

upier · May 24, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

There are bad players on the Kurzick side.
I know that. I go against them.
There are bad players on the Luxon side.
I know that. I play with them.

The problem is what the rest of the team can do. And the power that 2 or 3 Kurzick monks bring to the battle is really going to be hard to negate without the WHOLE Luxon team actually playing pretty decently. So that's 3 decent players on the Kurzick side stand a good chance of wining against an 8 man Luxon party.
That's not playing. That's farming.

keli · May 24, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the map is balanced, then monks need a buff.
If the map is balanced that means that there is a 50/50 % chance of each side winning. And that means that some 3-8 monks should be UNABLE to keep a SINGLE target alive while standing behind a wall where the REAL damage dealers of GW (=physicals) can not reach them.
Yes?

Did you notice that your turtles do 350 dmg + remove enchantment?

If your team is not impotent you should be able to kill the npcs fast with the turtle (most of the npcs on this map have 400-450hp)

ajc2123 · May 24, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

There are bad players on the Kurzick side.
I know that. I go against them.
There are bad players on the Luxon side.
I know that. I play with them.

The problem is what the rest of the team can do. And the power that 2 or 3 Kurzick monks bring to the battle is really going to be hard to negate without the WHOLE Luxon team actually playing pretty decently. So that's 3 decent players on the Kurzick side stand a good chance of wining against an 8 man Luxon party.
That's not playing. That's farming.

Thats EXACTLY like RA, JQ, and AB! One good team in AB can make sure the 12 other players dont win, One good monk in RA can make the rest of the teams noobness not matter, and one good monk in JQ healing npcs at the shrine can make it so they win.

So by this logic, All of these need a revamp.

Shadow Slave · May 24, 2009, 12:41 PM // 12:41

We already have a thread about this - (the fact that it is now a ZQuest doesn't require a new one) ~ http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...37304&page=22&

The FA concept is brilliant, but it needs a significant time investment to make it balanced and more fun as a result.

Kurzicks have the advantage - clearly - but sitting behind a gate healing npcs is no fun.

Melee should be a more viable option for the Lux, absolutely.

upier · May 24, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

A monk in other random formats means that his team is going to be hard to kill.
To win - his team NEEDS to kill the opposing team. And since they have a non-damage character in their team that means that there is one person less dealing the damage and contributing to the kill.

In Aspy - the Kurzick monk's team does NOT need to kill the opposing team. Which means that there is ABSOLUTELY NO PENALTY for adding more people that prevent Luxons from killing the guys you need to protect. It actually improves the party's chance of winning.

pinguinius · May 24, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Should Fort Aspenwood be simply removed from the ZQuest rotation?

No.

FA is fine, perhaps slightly kurzick leaning (we don't have to actually accomplish anything, just not lose), but I don't want the weekly infusion of players to stop. Some might not have played FA before, and maybe some of them will keep playing.

.HunTer · May 24, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Why the Kurzicks win?

Because they know what are the "Luxon Builds" and know how to counter it...

ROJ Monks
Shadow form Elementalist
Toucher Ranger
Turtle Bonder
Defy Wammo

That's all,now just bring an interrupt and diversion,Gratz...your build > luxon builds.
Running the same builds for years is not something very smart,and they think ROJ > Guild wars,which isn't because kurzicks can interrupt it easily.

@edit

Some "Luxon builds":

Longasc · May 24, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Well...

Fort Aspenwood is probably more balanced than a lot of skills and other things in this game. I also have no idea how to balance it more. It is also VERY random by nature who has the advantage.

The win / loss ratio seems in my perspective a bit biased in favor of the Kurzicks indeed.

Still, why remove this mission from the ZQ rotation then?

I thought about it and Drazach Thicket Speed Clears and Jade Quarry still give more faction than FA with the quest active.

Regarding ArenaNets priorities, Fort Aspenwood is probably as fine as it can get. Trying to balance it yields no significant gains, especially in the light that there are tons of more broken things that are still not fixed either.

Enon · May 24, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Instead of removing it because it´s imbalanced, it should be fixed and kept as a Zaishen Combat Quest.

Unfortunately I have no clue on how to balance this. Sure, Luxons have the turtles. But even with them bombing Gunther combined with a fairly decent Luxon Team, Kurzick can still easily win as long as they have 2 - 4 monks (which they often do). And besides that, the turtles die way to easily anyway...

Shayne Hawke · May 24, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

FA is not imbalanced because one side has advantage over the other. I'm sure there are plenty of arguments from both sides on why their own side is better or worse than the other. The real reason that FA isn't balanced is because both teams don't start on the same ground, or any kind of mirror ground. Luxons and Kurzicks have two different goals achieved two different ways, and that's no good.

That said, it shouldn't be removed because it's still a PvP arena. It ought to get some kind of overhaul in its design though, perhaps by turning into some what of a GvG in the sense that both sides will have walls of NPCs to break through or leaders to protect.

upier · May 24, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

We already have a thread about this - (the fact that it is now a ZQuest doesn't require a new one) ~ http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...37304&page=22&

The problem of ZQuests is that it brings in a massive amount of players.
This means it brings in bad AND good players.
On both sides.
And that means that getting paired against 3 decent Kurzick players pretty much means defeat for the Luxons because of the massive amount of bad players. And now these bad players need to taker it up a notch - whereas the Kurzick bad players just need to get in the way.
And it makes no sense that Kurzicks automatically win such matches.
Especially since the point is to advertise the arena. And pretty much knowing you will lose upon entry isn't the best advertising one can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

Kurzicks have the advantage - clearly - but sitting behind a gate healing npcs is no fun.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10375900
I LOVE the use of the word "fun" in your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow Slave

The FA concept is brilliant, but it needs a significant time investment to make it balanced and more fun as a result.
Melee should be a more viable option for the Lux, absolutely.

This I do agree upon. I mean, if the offensive side is pretty much unable to use the best offensive characters in the game - yet the defensive side is able to use the best defensive options - something is off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .HunTer

Why the Kurzicks win?

Because they know what are the "Luxon Builds" and know how to counter it...

ROJ Monks
Shadow form Elementalist
Toucher Ranger
Turtle Bonder
Defy Wammo

That's all,now just bring an interrupt and diversion,Gratz...your build > luxon builds.
Running the same builds for years is not something very smart,and they think ROJ > Guild wars,which isn't because kurzicks can interrupt it easily.

I agree. A good mesmer goes a long way.
I was in Aspy previously and I was really annoying 3 monks. You know you are doing something right if all of a sudden a whole bunch of Kurzicks goes after you.

The problem is that annoying and disabling the monks isn't something that can be kept up 24/7 in a random format.
And that means that the team only has a few previous seconds to spike down a target.
And in a random format such as Aspy - that's going to be near impossible.

(It's the same discussion I had with a ritu today at Aspy, when I was told I am a noob and I should interrupt, blackout and KD the monks. And after telling him that I can provide something similar - I asked him if the party can provide the spike that will kill that foe in secs. And all of a sudden - he stopped giving "advice".

Oh and the ritu was dropping defensive spirits.
Yeah, you go girl!)

DreamRunner · May 24, 2009, 02:03 PM // 14:03

It is so easy for Kurzicks to win FA. Anyone who doesn't agree just wants Kurzicks to win more because lets face it, as long as kurzicks have a few monks that can prot the NPC's, they can win.

Tamuril elansar · May 24, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Turtles don't die either when the luxons have 2 decent monks.