Curse

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

you are a hoot :P. Post some of your builds and we'll be the judge of your supposed genius.

I wont' post a build, for many many reasons. Some of the same reasons I don't share builds. Posting a build, may lead to people using that build, which might lead to people exploiting what I consider to be a balanced build somehow, which might lead to a nerf. I take a of pride in my builds. Want to test me, meet me in game and let's play.

Because frankly, I offer my builds to a few close friends, end of.

dr love · Jun 19, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

This is nothing new, as it's been going on for years. Remember the old days in PvE when it was assumed that a Mesmer couldn't possibly have a decent skill bar simply because they were a MESMER?

omg so true.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

A theoretical build...

I have a build that's a lot of fun, that I like a lot. Without going into the specifics of my build, let me give you the theory behind it. Then you can play with that yourself

My best archer is a sin. A sin/ranger. This is how it works.

Most of my attribute points are in critical hits and marksmanship. The idea is to crit as much and as often as possible, but with a bow, not daggers.

The only skill in this build I consider a must have is the ranger preparation disrupting accuracy. Every time you crit, it also interupts.

You can get your crit to over 50% of the time, increase your fire speed with certain skills and do more damage when critting with certain skills.

Feel free to bring a poison tip signet, (not apply poison, since you'll always be maintaining disrupting accuracy).

Some of the skills you might "think" are dagger only, such as sharp blades, work well with other weapons.

Imagine an archer, that spams conditions, crits frequently, and interrupts almost constantly. Note the same can be done with a warrior, except that the interupt angle is gone, but a sin/warrior that crits a lot is still a lot of fun to play.

This is the type of thing I do. I get a theory and then expound on it. Test it. Record the damage I do against certain types of opponents, make a change and record the damage again. Make a change and record the damage again.

I will run the same area, six or seven times, with very slight variations on builds, just to see if I can improve my time, my average damage, or ease of play.

Mind you, my builds are often also intertwined with the builds of my heroes, so I'm often building for four.

Skyy High · Jun 19, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

I wont' post a build, for many many reasons. Some of the same reasons I don't share builds. Posting a build, may lead to people using that build, which might lead to people exploiting what I consider to be a balanced build somehow, which might lead to a nerf. I take a of pride in my builds. Want to test me, meet me in game and let's play.

Because frankly, I offer my builds to a few close friends, end of.

Get this through your head: you are not a unique snowflake. Also, if you really think that people playing a build is what gets skills nerfed, you're not paying attention.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Get this through your head: you are not a unique snowflake. Also, if you really think that people playing a build is what gets skills nerfed, you're not paying attention.

I don't care if you think I'm unique or not. It's my choice to share builds, or not share them. As for unique, everyone is unique, in some way. Deal with it. Snowflakes all look like snowflakes, but they are "supposedly" all different. Humans may sometimes look and act the same, but in the end, we are all individuals.

That said, you don't know me. You know nothing about me, except for a few words I've posted to a forum. If you don't like what I have to say, that's fine. But saying I'm not unique is pointless, not to mention untrue.

Finally, on builds. A single build doesn't get a skill nerfed. An exploitation of a successful build can. I enjoy using the skills I use, I choose NOT to share them with anyone but friends, and if that bothers you, then it sucks to be you.

I happen to think I'm reasonably intelligent. I happen to think "most" of the gaming world isn't. I'm not claiming on the smartest guy in the universe and if you bothered read what I said about myself earlier, I didn't claim to be the best GW player, so what is your problem?

I have a talent for builds, in the way an idiot savant might be able to count cards. I'm proud of that talent. Why would you have a problem with that?

zwei2stein · Jun 19, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

(Examples: Mending, Charge, Mark of Protection, Toxic Chill and so on). I mean seriously the way you make good builds is by experimenting. If no one experimented we wouldn't have any of these mainstream builds now would we?

People had yers to experiment with them and found out that, yes, they suck.

Mending is SIGN of someone who has no clue what he is doing.
Charge is okay skill but party wide speed boosts matter only when you transcend to "lets see how fast we can do this" stage.
Mark of Protection disables your own skills and has horrible recharge, and is elite. Any other prot skill is superior.
toxic chill deal armor affected damage and some poor degen. Its not really bad, but for elite, single target armor affected damage on 5 second recharge is low below necro standarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

For instance: I joined a group in Arborstone just for laughs where I used a build combining "Watch Yourself", "I Am Unstoppable" (at max Norn) and the very little used elite skill Soldier's Stance. Because I had that skill I got called a noob, an idiot and one guy even called me a cocksucker. So I had to leave and do it by myself.

You got called out because you ran tank-like bar with tanking elite (bad one btw) That is bad and what got people anoyed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Another: During the Eldritch Ettin Z-quest I had Mending (Yes I did, big whoop wanna fight about it?), combined with Feel no Pain (and a bit of alcohol <3). Again people laughed at me and kicked me out even though I actually had +345 hp, - 2 damage reduction (since I had an enchanted shield) and constant 6 hp regeneration not to mention the other selfprotective skills I had. Again I had to do it myself (And succeded in less than 45 minutes even though it was on HM with only 15% dp on one of my heroes)

Seriously, you wasted two skill slots on health regen (will not your ass in hm) and health boost (nice, but frankly, you could use your PvE slot for much better thing)

Those things are called selfish defences - they only help yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

It's not funny to be laughed at for anyone, and it's really a bad way to give advice by insulting people!

Indeed.

However, you should realize that you tend to run bars with selfish defences. And tank like bar. Which equals to wasted party slot.

As such, you will get called out often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airstu

Ping a cookie cutter build, run what you want.

Here is better idea: ping what you want/like to run and leave party if they don't like it.

That beats being selfish asshole.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I had to make an account for this thread because...holy crap.

As for the dude with the critical bowasin...it's been done before...over, and over, and over, and is even a build on the wiki. Or at least at one point. So really, stop thinking you are the master of innovation. It's been done before, probably before you even had an assassin.

As for OP, I'm sorry, but your builds are terrible. There is no "clever" use of Mending on a Warrior. There's no "clever" use of many of the skills in the game. Sure, you might "enjoy" the build, which is GREAT...but other people usually don't share the enthusiasm when they finally find a monk for a mission, and he wants to be a melee Mo/R because he thinks the build is clever.

Don't get me wrong, if someone is PuGing for missions or quests, chances are that they are actually terrible at the game themselves, therefore need everyone running the optimal build to even have a chance at finishing said mission/quest. Why would they sit there for an hour spamming for more people, just to take a build that is likely subpar, and won't help them anymore than a hero/hench would?

Basically, learn to play with heroes and hench. Put your "creative" builds on your heroes, and use the "creative" builds on yourself. If you repeatedly fail...your build isn't nearly as great as you may have thought it was. If you finish the mission/quest/campaign, then does it really matter if people tell you to go RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO a goat when you ping your build?

Edit:
I also mostly run non-cookiecutter builds. However, I'm not arrogant enough to think that they are better than the "meta". If I enjoy the current meta, I will run it. If I don't enjoy it, I'll make another build that may not be as good, but may be more enjoyable, and play it.

Edit2:
And yes, I've completed every campaign on every profession, and most of hardmode on a lot of them. I build my heroes to complement my build that is subpar on it's own. However, you cannot honestly expect random groups to adjust their builds to complement your "clever" build.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

[QUOTE=Yelling @ Cats;4697143]I had to make an account for this thread because...holy crap.

As for the dude with the critical bowasin...it's been done before...over, and over, and over, and is even a build on the wiki. Or at least at one point. So really, stop thinking you are the master of innovation. It's been done before, probably before you even had an assassin. </quote>

But since I don't LOOK at those sites, and I create my own builds, what is your point? lmao

I don't like taking other people's builds. I make my own. If the logic I use leads to the logic that other people have used in the past, so?

You seem to think that I said I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I've said is, I make my own builds and they're mine. If someone else has made the same or a similar build, more power to them.

But I take pride in making the builds I make and enjoying that. I don't LIKE build discrimination, because though my builds DO work, some idiots don't like them, even though they have never tried them. So I don't do pugs, which isn't a problem for me.

However, those of you who are used to using other people's builds, it's not surprising you'll find duplication. However, since I haven't shared my build, you simply can't compare it. Does that bother you for some reason?

Actually, those of you who have a problem with someone taking pride in doing something on their own, too bad. I'll continue to have pride.

And if you're perfectly happy to take stuff other people made and use it, more power to you.

It's funny, but I'm a writer and I know there are about twelve types of stories, but there are hundreds of thousands of books. Someone, at some point, might have told the same story. Ummmm, so? lol

There is nothing wrong with pride. You should try it yourself some time.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

But since I don't LOOK at those sites, and I create my own builds, what is your point? lmao

I don't like taking other people's builds. I make my own. If the logic I use leads to the logic that other people have used in the past, so?

You seem to think that I said I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I've said is, I make my own builds and they're mine. If someone else has made the same or a similar build, more power to them.

But I take pride in making the builds I make and enjoying that. I don't LIKE build discrimination, because though my builds DO work, some idiots don't like them, even though they have never tried them. So I don't do pugs, which isn't a problem for me.

However, those of you who are used to using other people's builds, it's not surprising you'll find duplication. However, since I haven't shared my build, you simply can't compare it. Does that bother you for some reason?

Actually, those of you who have a problem with someone taking pride in doing something on their own, too bad. I'll continue to have pride.

And if you're perfectly happy to take stuff other people made and use it, more power to you.

It's funny, but I'm a writer and I know there are about twelve types of stories, but there are hundreds of thousands of books. Someone, at some point, might have told the same story. Ummmm, so? lol

There is nothing wrong with pride. You should try it yourself some time.

For a writer...you sure contradict yourself a lot. Sometimes you are arguing that you take pride, and don't care what other people think, then you go on to insult and complain about other people who don't think your build is amazing.

As I said, people in PuGs are terrible at the game, and I'm not really sure why people get so offended when they tell you a build that works, doesn't. "Build Discrimination" is a joke in and of itself really. People who DO understand the game, and can think about builds on a critical level, will probably accept a slightly subpar build. People who do not understand builds, and just run whatever they hear is the flavor of the month, and kick anything else...do you really want to play with those people to begin with?

So you are either accepted by a average to above average group (remember, people who PuG are generally terrible at the game, so these groups will be rare as hell), or you get kicked out of a terrible group.

Then you have absolutely stupid builds that have little thought put into them. Like Mending Warriors, Rangers with 3 preps and barrage, monks without an elite and a spread of smiting/healing/protection, Elementalists with 5 spells that cause exhaustion, aura of resto, healing breeze, and a conjure. You can't honestly expect anyone to play along with those builds...they don't make sense, they are terrible, and they are a pretty damn good indication that the person has no clue of what they are doing.

Maybe YOUR builds make sense Kaoz, your crit barrage sin makes sense, and would likely be accepted into a lot of groups (aside from the ASN stigma, and again, most groups being terrible so needing a "perfect" team build). There's a difference between below average to average builds that make sense and are fun, and builds that are just absolutely pants on head retarded (read: mending warriors).

Nerel · Jun 19, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

A theoretical build...

I have a build that's a lot of fun, that I like a lot. Without going into the specifics of my build, let me give you the theory behind it. Then you can play with that yourself

My best archer is a sin. A sin/ranger. This is how it works.

Most of my attribute points are in critical hits and marksmanship. The idea is to crit as much and as often as possible, but with a bow, not daggers.

I think you just invented a variant of the critical barrager that has been around for ages... or I missed something.

Edit For Khyr Lord of Kaoz (Below). Yes, I did realize that your build doesn't use Barrage, that would defeat the purpose of using a prep... but the idea of your build probably started with the well known Critical Barrager build, and yes Disrupting accuracy variants of it (such as you build would appear to be) are old news. But please, criticize me for not knowing the intimate details of a build you're unwilling to post... one can hardly do naught but speculate on the supposed build if you're unwilling to post it.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/R_Sharpened_Accuracy
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/R_Critical_Barrager

Just for reference, some old, no longer favored builds...

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

I think you just invented a variant of the critical barrager that has been around for ages... or I missed something.

I don't know what's been around for ages, which is my point. I make my own builds, which generally means I don't research others.

Not all builds, however, are equal. To day a crit barrager, is NOT my build, because barrage wouldn't allow you to use a preparation, which is required in my version of this build.

Disrupting accuracy, as I said, is the only skill I consider must have. That means each time you crit, you interupt. Barrage is incompatible with it. If you spam barrage, you lose your preparation.

It's one thing for me to post a build and say, here it is, and you to say it's been around, and it's another for me NOT to, and just ask people to be creative about it.

However, since I don't look at other people's builds as a regular matter of form, I have no idea if it's been around or not. And if someone hadn't asked me to share a build, I wouldn't have posted it to the list even in this form. Someone said, I'm a hoot and show me some of the builds, I declined and someone got snotty. So I showed the theory I used to make a build, not the build itself.

Unless you're psychic, I don't think you know if my build is different or not.

As for someone saying I'm contradicting myself, I'm probably saying opposite things to different remarks. Though I don't care what people think, I also choose to defend myself, not because I'm upset or angry, but for the benefit of others who might take heart from seeing someone defending is right to have pride, without becoming offensive in the process.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 08:20 AM // 08:20

There's a difference in "pride" and "arrogant stubbornness".

Toting that your build is the best thing going, that everyone else is running subpar builds, and people are assholes for not accepting your obviously superior build kind of falls into the "arrogant stubbornness" category moreso than the pride category.

It's one thing to say "My build works fairly well, I enjoy it, but other builds may be better", but saying "Cookie-cutter builds are weak, my build is amazing, I made it myself, I won't tell anyone, I don't know what anyone else uses, but my build is superior" is kind of ridiculous.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

There is more use to a skill than simply one freaking build. It's not like you've tried it once, and that means every build with that skill is the same.

It doesn't matter if they are the same.

Mending
Is
A
Terrible
Skill

No matter what else you have on your bar, you have a subpar skill that is going to consume half, or more of your energy, while doing next to nothing for you or your team. You would actually be better having an empty skill slot than you would using Mending.

Edit:
Deleted post is deleted?

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

There's a difference in "pride" and "arrogant stubbornness".

Toting that your build is the best thing going, that everyone else is running subpar builds, and people are assholes for not accepting your obviously superior build kind of falls into the "arrogant stubbornness" category moreso than the pride category.

It's one thing to say "My build works fairly well, I enjoy it, but other builds may be better", but saying "Cookie-cutter builds are weak, my build is amazing, I made it myself, I won't tell anyone, I don't know what anyone else uses, but my build is superior" is kind of ridiculous.

Show me exactly where I did that. I'm interested.

Nerel · Jun 19, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Edit:
Deleted post is deleted?

Deleted? No, just hiding in shame. Mending will do that.

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

Show me exactly where I did that. I'm interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

LOL at the people who think cookie cutter builds are necessarily MOST effective. Wrong. I have builds of my own (original builds), that are as good as most cookie cutter builds, or better.

That enough?

Or should I continue quoting where you act like you don't even know what the cookie-cutter builds are?

Sword Hammer Axe · Jun 19, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

@OP - Your underlying problem is you are testing builds good or bad at the expense of your team. They have every right to criticize you if you're gonna drag them down with you. It's all about efficiency. I would not want to spend 45 minutes to carry a bad player/skill bar through when I can achieve the same goal in half the time with a proper group. Now you multiply this scenario X amount of times and the total amount of time saved adds up. Time is money and you're not helping much.

Get it?

If you want to "test" things do it in your own time. On your own team or go do some RA and FA but don't join a team expecting them to carry you through while you figure out whether your build is good or not.

Your team is only as strong as it's weakest link. If you're the weak link I suggest you suck in your ego/pride/whatever and do something about it.

There is a difference between elitism and people just wanting to succeed. In your case it wasn't elitism (not even remotely close), you just had a very very bad skill bar and I would've just kicked you had you decided to pick an argument with me (not much to argue about in the first place since it's not an argument you can win).

Right here's the difference in criticism:
"Hmm seems ok, but you might wanna change mending for something else since it doesn't heal much and kinda affects your energy management."
Thumbs up to that type of criticism! Constructive, friendly and doesn't make the critic sound like an idiot.

Here's the other:
"Omg noob! You bringing mending, are you freaking stupid? Change your build or I'm kicking you, noob!"
That's not very constructive is it? Where's the common good behaviour here? You see a complete stranger and the first impression you give of yourself is that you're an asshole times ten.

Oh not elitism? Arborstone on NM and Eldritch Ettin on HM. I did both of those without changing my build with H/H. But I had to have got the worst possible experience from those people simply because they "thought my build couldn't make it".

Besides, random testing in RA and FA? So I should not test my builds on expense of my team... except in these 2 cases. Isn't that kind of double standard? And don't say it's because you don't know who you are ending up with because you don't know in a pug either. In pug you know that people are that profession, have that weapon and that specific build. But you don't know anything about their skills as a player. I mean the whole Slaver's run would be ruined simply because that Permasin, with the completely right setup, forgot to keep up SF, wouldn't it?

Toxic OnyX · Jun 19, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiros

perhaps you should think of it another way. imagine if you will, if we were in the same platoon. if you put your m16 together in a way that fired rubber bands instead of bullets, in the right situation, i'm sure it would be hilarious. i would also admire your ingenuity. but i wouldn't want you in my platoon.

/threadwinner IMO

Yelling @ Cats · Jun 19, 2009, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Right here's the difference in criticism:
"Hmm seems ok, but you might wanna change mending for something else since it doesn't heal much and kinda affects your energy management."
Thumbs up to that type of criticism! Constructive, friendly and doesn't make the critic sound like an idiot.

Here's the other:
"Omg noob! You bringing mending, are you freaking stupid? Change your build or I'm kicking you, noob!"
That's not very constructive is it? Where's the common good behaviour here? You see a complete stranger and the first impression you give of yourself is that you're an asshole times ten.

To be fair, someone with Mending on their bar basically screams "I don't know what I'm doing, I didn't read my skills, and I'm just using the skills that I started with".

I mean really, how can someone look at Mending, and look at Vigorous Spirit and think that Mending is the superior choice? I'm not even condoning Warriors with Vigorous Spirit...it's just simple math.

Assuming you have 8 Healing Prayers to get +3 Mending....
Mending will heal 6 health per second, and cost 1 energy every 3 seconds. In 30 seconds, that's 180 health, and 10 energy.

Vigorous Spirit, at 8 Healing Prayers, will heal 13 health every time you attack for 30 seconds.
Swords and Axes attack at every 1.33 seconds, faster if you have IAS, but let's ignore that. 30 divided by 1.33 takes you to about 22 attacks in 30 seconds. Let's be generous and assume you only get in 15. That is still 195 health healed, for 5 energy. HALF the cost of Mending, MORE health healed. At maximum efficiency, it heals for nearly 60% more than Mending.

the_jos · Jun 19, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

PvE build discrimination is old, very old.
Specially when joining some kind of farming team.
In Normal Mode you can get away with about every build available, given that the total team is good enough. But that doesn't mean it's efficient, something that's important for farming.

When looking at Hard Mode stuff build discrimination has good reason.
First of all you are PUG, meaning the team doesn't know your competence.
Second, people don't want others to be a burden on the team.
Third, some builds just don't work in HM.

In Guild teams I don't tolerate this kind of discrimination but I expect people to be able to defend their build and explain how it will enhance the team when questions arise. Most guildies are experienced enough to know what works and doesn't work in a team.
And this is where the OP get's in. Take the Eldritch Ettin example.
Sure the build works with H&H. But when looking at the build from a mostly human team perspective it proabably adds very little to the team.
As warrior I would take a far more agressive build and have monks take care of keeping red bars up. You probably have their enchantments on you most of the time and it could even be that other team members bring additional damage enhancing enchantments for you (orders, soh).

Questions would arise, not because I'm against experimenting but because you are a member of a team with human players and should consider this when picking your build.