Curse

Zinger314 · Jun 19, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

As far as this not being life, that's true. However, I've often found most online societies are microcosms of life. And in those microcosms, it is not very often that the know-it-alls are the smartest or best segment of the population. I won't bring out psychological testing to prove what I'm saying, because this isn't the place for it, but if you're interested, I can give you links to the studies off list.

And as in life, I presume you aren't being holier-than-thou on a regular basis?

Same ideology goes online.

Kendel · Jun 19, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Did i really just read that you took along Mending and didn't expect to get kicked out for being a moron? And then you came here to complain that you can't run anything you want? Theres experimenting and theres moronic, taking Mending is the latter.

byteme! · Jun 19, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

snip...

Ok lets get 1 thing straight here. People who can't make their own builds and use "cookie cutter builds" and then insist on you to follow suit aren't the exact people I'm talking about and YES I agree with you about them.

But aside from the cookie cutter newbs, there are in fact people out there with good builds in their team setup. Which brings me back to my original point. If you want to experiment with THESE people you don't belong. If the leader asks you to run a build. You do it! No questions asked. It's their team setup not yours. You joined THEIR team. If all else fails LEAVE or someone will make it happen for you. They made the team so they dictate the rules. You don't join a team and expect to run the show.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

And as in life, I presume you aren't being holier-than-thou on a regular basis?

Same ideology goes online.

I always treat elitism and people who are unnecessarily offensive, the same way, here, or in real life.

Why do you want to defend people who like to name-call? That's a better question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Ok lets get 1 thing straight here. People who can't make their own builds and use "cookie cutter builds" and then insist on you to follow suit aren't the exact people I'm talking about and YES I agree with you about them.

But aside from the cookie cutter newbs, there are in fact people out there with good builds in their team setup. Which brings me back to my original point. If you want to experiment with THESE people you don't belong. If the leader asks you to run a build. You do it! No questions asked. It's their team setup not yours. You joined THEIR team. If all else fails LEAVE or someone will make it happen for you. They made the team so they dictate the rules. You don't join a team and expect to run the show.

Strangely enough, I'm not disagreeing with you. There ARE two issues here.

1. Cookie cutter builds and people who insist on using them are fine, as long as they don't insult me for NOT using them.

2. I'm a pretty good player. I may not be the best, but usually, in group situations, people have been impressed by me. Doesn't mean I'm leet. It means I'm at least competent, and occasionally I border on inspired.

I guess my real beef is how people say things and why they do it. And I am tired of people assuming that cookie cutter builds are the best.

The sabway build is a good example. It's a good build, no question about it. I've tried it and it works. That said, it's also an old build. When it was created, the hero AI was weaker in a lot of ways. The creator chose the skills he chose, because for those skills, hero AI was better than for a lot of other skills. It meant you didn't have to worry about hero skill bars, you could pretty much just concentrate on your own.

A couple of years in the future, and a lot of the AI skills for heroes has been updated and improved. There are other, and perhaps even better, options than sabway. Which doesn't mean people don't still use it and rave about it.

Just as people still rave about 55 monks, or 130 dervishes. Or perma sins.

Gimmick builds have their place. People who insist I use a gimmick build have their place. People who insult me for NOT using a specific build, that's the people I have no time for.

byteme! · Jun 19, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

There's a lot of misquoting during the last little bit.

@Lux - you were talking to the OP right? It looks like you're agreeing with me and at the same time it feels like you aren't.

@Lord of Kaoz - you quoted me, not Zinger

Anyways all good. Just wanted to make sure things were in good order so readers don't get confused.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

There's a lot of misquoting during the last little bit.

@Lux - you were talking to the OP right? It looks like you're agreeing with me and at the same time it feels like you aren't.

@Lord of Kaoz - you quoted me, not Zinger

Anyways all good. Just wanted to make sure things were in good order so readers don't get confused.

Sorry byte...I'm new to the forums, and I wasn't awake yet. I'll try to be more careful.

Haxor · Jun 19, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

So let me get this straight. You were running a warrior, who did nothing remotely close to what a warrior is supposed to do (tear shit up), but were instead running a mending+feel no pain+several other self-defense skills, and you're surprised you got kicked out?

Experimenting is fine, but a good player will be able to look at a bar and see if it works. Considering your bar was at least half self-protection which is selfish and useless, especially in HM, it's very logical they kicked you. That's not to say it won't work, because frankly everything works almost everywhere. It's just decidedly sub-par. There are some certain ground rules a build must adhere to if it wants to be good, and for a warrior the most important of those is the following: "Needs to kill shit and/or do efficient crowd-control". Which yours obviously doesn't.

gremlin · Jun 19, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

In PVP its important to have a balanced team so build is very important and your team needs to know what everyone is running.

pve is different for a start unless your build is really and I mean really bad and or your going into a tough area then it doesn't really matter.
Bad tactics make you fail far mor often than bad builds.

Don't get me wrong I am all for team spirit and will happily ping builds and discuss tactics, if I am asked, I emphasise asked not told ordered or its demanded.

Good party
Just wondered what your build was, I'm running **** we have a monk doing *** and a necro with **** etc is fine by me I'm feeling at home already.
I will even suggest things myself to check we make things easy for ourselves.

Bad party
ping ur build

now I am defensive because even though I have played since the start and already been through the current mission/area several dozen times.
I know what's next ping any build that isn't the current golden build for the class and its "noob"
Refuse and its "noob" and your cut off and probably outed all through the area as a noob.
This wouldn't bother me but it messes with my ability to get on another party in that area.

So I do what most do run with my guild and alliance members or use heroes.
Happy in the knowledge that the party that dumped me will be there for hours failing at the mission and convinced its someone elses fault.

Kendel · Jun 19, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Refusing to ping your build gets you kicked if i'm leading. Running something Experimental? Whatever, if its NM i probably don't care, just aslong as i can actually see the logic in it. Running something terrible, you change or leave. If you refuse to show the team what your using then i can only assume its because you know it sucks. Wtf should i tell you what WE are using for? I want to know what YOU are using, if it fits in with what WE are using then i can tell you what WE are using.

Its a pug, there are certain things you should expect, 1 of those is pinging your build without someone having to type an essay to get you to do it.

And 1 more thing. People who ping 1 build and use a completely different 1 are even bigger dicks than those who insist you run something from the wiki. "Why isn't that boss being dazed, your suppose to be a BHA" "no sorry i pinged that but i ran my epic Poison Arrow build"

Antares Ascending · Jun 19, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Mate... what you are doing is a good thing... dont let others jump on you and stuff... this is how I got my start in guild wars, looking at skills and looking at complementing them with a different profession set of skills then the first... like Pious Haste and Weapon Spells for example... but I digress...

Dont let some lame and probably uncreative people get you down because that follow the herd... do your own thing, and be proud of it. Look me up if you want to chit-chat about builds.

This is the right attitude. People who always want to run Cookie cutter builds are doomed to a meh exixtance.

Martin Alvito · Jun 19, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

OP: If you run a bad build, you are wasting (usually) seven other people's time.

Someone with a good build could do your job faster. Because they could do your job faster, the run would go faster.

This is why people rip you apart for running a bad build. You are unilaterally imposing a cost on them, and you don't realize it. In other words, you are being a selfish jerk and you have earned every bit of the abuse that is heaped upon you.

Other posters are correct that a good team recognizes that there is more than one build that will work well for any given area. However, if your build is just plain bad (and yours was), both good teams and bad teams will kick you for wanting to run it.

Antares Ascending · Jun 19, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

.

Sry for dbl post. lost connect and came back to this

Zzes Tyan · Jun 19, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

i stopped reading after i saw mending.

but really, i dont mind origional builds as long as they work.

Chthon · Jun 19, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

1. Most people who PUG have set out with the goal to finish the mission/quest, on the first try, quickly if possible. Your experimental builds don't fit in with that goal. It's no surprise they kicked you.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

I mean seriously the way you make good builds is by experimenting.

Experimentation is not the way you make good builds. At least not the sort of "experimentation" you're involved in. There are millions of possible build combinations out there, and the overwhelming majority of them are awful. The odds of stumbling onto anything good through "experimentation" are tiny. Goods builds come from working on deepening one's understanding of game mechanics, meditating on them, and then testing and tweaking what should already be a well-thought-out build long before a single skill hits the bar.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 19, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

No but seriously, Trying out new builds is perfectly fine. Thats why we have heroes and henchies. So we can do our own thing without bothering anyone else. You know how easily bothered gamers are in general. Overly sensitive and dramatic not to meantion hyper anal about how THEY play and enjoy the game.

That said, when you run a build in a team, it has to benefit the team. Running a self sustaining warrior is ok and can help the monk out. I do the same although I do not use mending or any kind of heal.

I use "Mending Touch" I believe its called, which removed two conditions and heals me for X.
Which no one complains about because it saves the monk energy and in pvp its not very easy to bring me down with conditions. Also locking in conditions with other conditions doesn't work on me unless I'm fighting 2vme and both are spamming conditions. Plus I'v been slain before due to neglectful monks to busy healing the ele's. Then I would die and we would get a party wipe.

Now I'm normally the very last person in a group to die, both in pve and pvp (until the other team catches on and mugs my ass. lol.)

Warriors deal damage, thats what they are made for. They can give as good as they get and thats what you should focus on while in a group. Mending just gets in the way and doesn't benefit the warrior at all.

Hexes and being set on fire defeat mending every single time. Consistant damage defeats mending every time, regardless of max life. Spiking defeats mending every time. Its just not worth it to use mending as a heal. The only thing mending counters is a weak poision condition, and thats rare as people who use poison try to buff it up.

Now, I'm all for finding a build that makes mending good. Mending has the potential to be a benefit to tanking, but you would need a way to increase the life regen greatly. But since tanking is pretty much unneeded in most areas and there are far better ways to tank than trying to regen life quickly, its pointless to bring mending. You'd be better off finding a build for Obsidian Armor or Mist Form or something like that. Endure pain is better than mending.

Anyways. The best thing to do is either (A) find a build you like that others won't hate or (B) find a well known build that you can enjoy.

My axe warrior build is pretty much what I have ran since I started playing guildwars. All energy as I do not like adren much for axes. Over time I'v found the newer skills to be of great help to me. Before wars endurance, energy builds were a pain. Now they are easy.

Power attack, Counter attack, furious axe, executioners strike, warriors endurance, endure pain, mending touch and either rez sig/ rebirth(for heroes) or Lions comfort. (recently traded executioners strike for brawling headbutt for more damage and knockdown)

Is it the best spiker build? Probably not, but it is damn good with healing support. I can do most HM areas with just a monk healing me.

Point is, you have four options. 1.Play whatever you want with heroes and not worry about other players stressing. 2.Play whatever you want in groups and take the chance of them hating it and kicking you. 3.Play whatever the group wants and risk not having fun. 4.Find the middle ground and find a build that people accept that is fun for you.

Also, I welcome the day someone finds the perfect metabuild using mending and everyone says exactly what I opened with. "ZOMG! Mending is teh godlies!" That would give me endless lol's.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 19, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

I

Another: During the Eldritch Ettin Z-quest I had Mending (Yes I did, big whoop wanna fight about it?), combined with Feel no Pain (and a bit of alcohol <3). Again people laughed at me and kicked me out even though I actually had +345 hp, - 2 damage reduction (since I had an enchanted shield) and constant 6 hp regeneration not to mention the other selfprotective skills I had. Again I had to do it myself (And succeded in less than 45 minutes even though it was on HM with only 15% dp on one of my heroes)
advice by insulting people!

Alright, lemme get this straight. You are wasting 2 slots, one of which is a pve skill slot, -1 energy degenaration, and some alcohol for +6 health regeneration. You gotta break it down. All of that for 12 health per second. If you want heals that bad, bring Lions Comfort (even though i dont reccomend it). Itl heal for about 100 for no energy cost and with also give a nice adrenaline boost. No offence, but if you were in my team, you would be kicked too.

I mean, I test my own bulids just like everyone else. I just dont bring people down with me. Like, just yesterday i tried some hundred blades never rampage alone beast master build(which sucked by the way), but i did it with henchmen.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 19, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Refusing to ping your build gets you kicked if i'm leading. Running something Experimental? Whatever, if its NM i probably don't care, just aslong as i can actually see the logic in it. Running something terrible, you change or leave. If you refuse to show the team what your using then i can only assume its because you know it sucks. Wtf should i tell you what WE are using for? I want to know what YOU are using, if it fits in with what WE are using then i can tell you what WE are using.

Its a pug, there are certain things you should expect, 1 of those is pinging your build without someone having to type an essay to get you to do it.

And 1 more thing. People who ping 1 build and use a completely different 1 are even bigger dicks than those who insist you run something from the wiki. "Why isn't that boss being dazed, your suppose to be a BHA" "no sorry i pinged that but i ran my epic Poison Arrow build"

Let's just hope you're as smart as the person who made the build in the first place. Or have the same experience.

I don't always want to ping builds, because of bad reactions I've gotten from people who don't have a clue. You may be the greatest thing to happen to GW since sliced bread, but that's you. Unfortunately, you don't have a degree in GW and no one knows who is leading what party. So if you're a great and wonderful party leader, you're one in fifty, one in a hundred. I don't actually gear my responses to the minority, because they are the minority.

I do agree about pinging another build, I think that's crass. But if you're good, the last thing you can afford to believe is that everyone is going to be as good as you.

I've had aparty leader tell me to swap out one skill, from a build that worked perfectly fine UNTIL you swap out that skill. You can't change one skill in some builds and expect them to hold together. So I changed one skill, because he was the party leader and surprise, we failed. I then went back in with my original build and did just fine.

Again, I don't know anything about "you" but I know that I'm talented enough at building, not to have to justify myself to some guy who wouldn't know a good build if it bit him on the ankle.

The problem is, being a party leader doesn't insure you're as skilled as the people in the party. And of course, that can mean the party leader is wasting everyone's time as well.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Jun 19, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

The thing your forgetting is, the more defensive skills you take, the less damage you do, the longer time you take, the less time the other people have to do something else, blah blah blah. its an endless cycle, so just bring a viable build, and people wont complain. thats if your in a TEAM, if your NOT, then being HERO's so you can waste your own time with the healing hand mending build.

draxynnic · Jun 19, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoeclald

Based on your Arborstone bar, perhaps they were looking for more damage-oriented builds than tanking. Warriors are great for PvE and PvP, but a lot of their focus should be on damage unless otherwise specified, such as in The Deep where they are to hold many of the foes or in farming situations. Keep testing bars, but don't get discouraged. If they kick you for having a test bar, have a real bar to back you up so you can still go and finish and save the test bar for later. When a team is purely BYOB and doesn't matter what you have, then you bring your test bar.

The best defense in the world won't help if your party has died around you and you can't kill the enemy.

In more general terms: Experimentation is something you should do on your own time. If it proves effective, then you can start bringing it into other people's time, but then you'd better be prepared to defend it - not just that it's effective, but that it's effective in doing what the party wants you to do.

Ultimately, there's a certain amount of give and take in all this. The party that kicks you for pinging the wrong build without even telling you what they want is obviously in the wrong - but so is expecting a party to take you regardless of your build when they're looking for something specific (one of the things that's been annoying me in zquests is the number of monks insisting on running RoJ). There is a medium, however, in which builds don't necessarily have to be ripped from PvX but can still be reasonably expected to be effective... and sometimes this does involve communication both ways. There have been times I've seen someone's bar and questioned why they're using X instead of Y, and there have been times when I've shown mine and been asked to swap things out, and had to explain why I was, say, using AP instead of Mindbender as my skill recharger. Most times I've brought people around, but you know what? Sometimes I'm the one that learns something.

YunSooJin · Jun 19, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

Let's just hope you're as smart as the person who made the build in the first place. Or have the same experience.

I don't always want to ping builds, because of bad reactions I've gotten from people who don't have a clue. You may be the greatest thing to happen to GW since sliced bread, but that's you. Unfortunately, you don't have a degree in GW and no one knows who is leading what party. So if you're a great and wonderful party leader, you're one in fifty, one in a hundred. I don't actually gear my responses to the minority, because they are the minority.

I do agree about pinging another build, I think that's crass. But if you're good, the last thing you can afford to believe is that everyone is going to be as good as you.

I've had aparty leader tell me to swap out one skill, from a build that worked perfectly fine UNTIL you swap out that skill. You can't change one skill in some builds and expect them to hold together. So I changed one skill, because he was the party leader and surprise, we failed. I then went back in with my original build and did just fine.

Again, I don't know anything about "you" but I know that I'm talented enough at building, not to have to justify myself to some guy who wouldn't know a good build if it bit him on the ankle.

The problem is, being a party leader doesn't insure you're as skilled as the people in the party. And of course, that can mean the party leader is wasting everyone's time as well.

you are a hoot :P. Post some of your builds and we'll be the judge of your supposed genius.