Curse

Verene · Jul 08, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

A small innate IAS boost would be awesome. Scythes are such slow weapons to attack with, and even 1% per rank would add up quick. 2% would probably be overpowered, allowing you to go past 50% while using HoF. That might be a bit too much.

However, it'd definitely be an advantage that a Dervish would have over any other class using a scythe.

I also think that more armor buffs or blocking skills would be nice for them.

IronSheik · Jul 08, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Hmmm...how about allowing mysticism to give a small innate IAS boost that stacks past the usual 33%? Like 1% or 2% per rank?

Sins and warrs still beat them

at 16 Myst that isn't even 33%

Verene · Jul 08, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Sins and warrs still beat them

at 16 Myst that isn't even 33%

Did you miss him saying "stacks past"?

Meaning that it'd stack on top of the IAS from Heart of Fury or whatever other IAS skill you were using.

1% per rank, at 12 Mysticism, while using HoF - that's 45%. That's huge.

How's a sin or warrior going to beat that? Easy. They can't.

fenix · Jul 08, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

A dervish with 45% IAS?

That's the worst idea I've heard in weeks. That would make dervishes unbelievably overpowered.

Verene · Jul 08, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

It's also getting too far away from what Mysticism already does, which I don't necessarily think is a good idea.

(1% for every two or three ranks? =P)

Perhaps tweak the energy/health gain from it, or change the condition at which you gain health/energy...

Scary · Jul 08, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Does the Water attribute need improvement?

To some degree, yes. Although water is VERY effective in PvP, it offers no benefits in PvE. I mean, sure it's nice to have Blurred Vision on a bar, but it's not any better than other skills. Water needs a big PvE buff to make it more of a shut-down attribute. Currently there is no real need to snare things, so maybe there needs to be a change to the way it works in PvE.

Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?

Beast Mastery, for a lack of a better word, is shit. There's really no other way to put it. It's a huge waste of attributes, unless you're running Rampage as One, and we all know that RaO doesn't use ANY pet skills. Needs a huge revamp.

Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?

Not much you can do to change the Dervish without making it overpowered.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?

Used to be overpowered, then were fixed, then were bad. Couple more updates and they were strong again, then some more updates and bad. They should make them strong. Like the Rit changes. Just buff the hell out of them.

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?

Hammer is good actually. Earthshaker is probably the 2nd best Warrior bar in PvE, behind Dragon Slash. Huge damage, fantastic KDs, does everything you need it to.

Water magic: O yes indeed that needs a buff in PvE, and also the Air magic. Just a shame that those arn't used couse they are nothing compared with fire magic. Ok water is better than air atm in PvE due to the AoE slowdown of foe's ,but still it would be very nice to see Elementals that are using total differnt builds than they have ever used.

Beast Mastery: it is so nice to have running pets in your team, yep Beast Mastery definitely has to be raised to a higher level. Wouldn't it be nice to have team builds based on Beast Mastery, that would give playing GuildWars PvE (maybe PvP) a whole different dimension.

Dervish: Wel, I'll guess that there might be some buffs to several skills,
Dervish is nice already now they can have almost a infinite Aura with Eternal Aura. Still there can be some improvements.
And I don't think it's necessary making the Scythe Dervish only. I like to experiment with other weapons with my Necro. one of my favorite builds is with a bow, so who knows it might be with a scythe one day to. But ok I'm playing only PvE, so for PvP it might be a total differnt story.

Hammer: Underestimated it is, there might be some buffs comparing to sword and axe.

Spirits: I've done some sugestions in the past. And I'll keep to my opinion, and that is, If you want to make spirtis valuable and often used in PvE, make them not area bounded but just as Rt spirits, Foe ore Friendly bounded. That would give even more opportunities to Rt builds and again it would give a big twist in playing the game so far. There is a profit for both sides, Foe and friendly so it will not be overpowerd in that way.

Who knows.. maybe there will be some of those changes in the next big update.

Anet have to listen someday.. wont they ??

zwei2stein · Jul 08, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Does the Water attribute need improvement?
Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?
Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?
Do Nature Spirits need a twist?
Hammer much? No, really, how is it?

No, Eles have more than enough options. Earth for HM, Fire for NM, Support everywhere.

Yes, But there is no way to fix it because they would need to make skill powerful enough to warrant cost of three skill slots. Which would be insane.

Not exactly, But scythe could hit extra target with 8 mysticism or so.

No, why should they need change? If it ain't broke ...

Hammer "wins PvE" and is one of best things you can bring.

---

Remember, "useless" skill lines are completely fine as long as class owning them has other, viable, options.

Anyone wanting to play water or beast mastery for fun can choose to do so.

Burst Cancel · Jul 08, 2009, 06:27 AM // 06:27

The thread effectively ended with Ensign's response; that's seriously all that needed to be said.

Which surprises no one, I'm sure.

Arkantos · Jul 08, 2009, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I have to agree with Fenix. Dervishes with a 45% IAS would be way too powerful, even for PvE.

Does the Water attribute need improvement?

For PvE, yes. It's currently quite useless outside some gimmick farm builds that require a snare. It's fine for PvP, though.

Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?

Yes, it is. It's never been too great in PvE. I wouldn't mind a buff, but I'm not going to cry if they don't. For PvP, it's only ever been used in gimmick builds (RaO) and quite overpowered ones (R/P in HB), so keep it as it is.

Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?

Dervishes aren't horrible in PvE, but assassins and warriors use scythes better. Change AoHM so only dervishes can effectively use it, make mysticism useful, and they should be better. Again, no change for PvP.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?

The only thing that's bad about them is that they affect both your teammates and your enemies. However, I don't see how they could make them more effective without making them overpowered.

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?

Hammers are fine.

IronSheik · Jul 08, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Yes I did miss the stacks past, because a 65% IAS is so stupid I didn't assume he meant that.

I actually would use 16 Mysticism for that much, even at 45 I would use it, it's too imba.

Buffing mysticism to give out more health won't make them used more, sins and warrs are picked due to DPS, that won't increase DPS. Make AoHM scale with mysticism, like Crit Agility does

Scary · Jul 08, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

No, Eles have more than enough options. Earth for HM, Fire for NM, Support everywhere.

No !!!! couse they have Earth on HM and Fire on NM !!!!

Ok, just get rit of the water and air than???
So they need a buff to compeed with Fire and Earth ..agree... Yes.. thanks

Kalendraf · Jul 08, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Does the Water attribute need improvement?

Ele is my main character. I actually play water builds a lot in PvE, especailly in Hard Mode. Water magic is VASTLY UNDER-RATED. The slow hexes are far more useful than many players seem to think. Maelstrom is a powerful interrupt, and blurred vision works wonders at shutting down melee. Ward Against Harm is fantastic.

However, I only find 2 of the elites useful in PvE: Shatterstone, and the previously mentioned Ward Against Harm. Sure there are farming builds using Mistform, but they aren't generally team-oriented. Single target elite snares like Icy Shackles or Mind Freeze just don't work well in PvE, and Water Trident is just to limited due to AI behavior.

Ideas to improve things:

Icy Shackles - make a PvE version that is AoE version with same effect
Mind Freeze - greatly increase damage and/or remove exhaustion for PvE version
Mirror of Ice - make PvE version increase damage on every foe affected by AoE hexes, not just the main spell target
Water Trident - make PvE version also able to interrupt a non-moving target if they are affected by some number of water hexes (fewer required w/ more ranks in water).

Some non-elites could also use a buff for PvE, like Ice Prison and Swirling Aura

Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?

I don't play a ranger much, but when I do, I often bring my pet. However, I never bring any pet skills. They seem to hard to manage with a typical bow-style skillbar. Without greatly overhauling the pet mechanics, I don't know how to improve this. I'd like to see more static buffs, that you simply equip, at the cost of a skill slot, to make the pet better, but that would be a huge change, and probably too powerful.

Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?

I rarely play dervish, but it seems like the problem here could be solved by allowing Mysticism ranks to slightly increase scythe attack rate, damage or something similar. Enemy dervs (whirling wisps, awakened dune carvers) seem very powerful already (I hate facing Vow of Silence), so any buffs here need to be considered very carefully.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?

I kind of like these how they are. If anything I'd like to see their casting times reduced similar to how rit spirits were improved. Maybe drop them to 2 or 3 seconds from their current 5?

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?

Need to be careful here. Tons of PvE foes use Hammers, so any buff to this could make certain foes and areas significantly more challenging.

4thVariety · Jul 08, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

The following Text relates to PvE:

Ritualists can now use spirits and run with the team. The fast casting times made it possible to run along the group at a regular PvE pace.

Assassins are still a binary affair. In some places you need them for complete invulnerability, so you take a Permasin with you. But that is the only thing Sins got going for them. Once they drop permanent Shadow Form, they are mostly considered a liability.

Paragons are in a tough spot. Look at PvX Wiki, you will only find an Imbagon build as rated good. So if you play Imbagon, then you are the delight of any group and your group will cut through hardmode like a hot knife through butter. If you try anything else but Imbagon, you end up with a weird mixture consisting of, some teamheal, some teamenergy, some teamdamage, and a spear. A good middleground, but playing PvE is not about middle grounds, it's about ultra-specialized builds. Maximum heal, maximum damage, etc. It might take some time until the overpowerdness of current Paragons in PvE is realized.

Water Magic trades off damage for movement restriction and or knockdown. In PvE that is not an issue. Maybe once in Moddock Crevice it's an issue to keep two enemies from running, but for regular PvE play it just does not make sense. The enemy won't run so why snare him?

Ensign · Jul 08, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Only if you attempt to cause masses of direct damage. Conditioning builds from Air can be pretty effective if you have enough of an imagination to not run Discordway.

You should say 'you can blind things' because otherwise Curses does it better, plus has a whole lot more goodies in it (spiteful and friends, hexes, removals).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

BM will always be either too strong or too weak. The AI of a pet is its main limitation.

To elaborate: if AI-way is a top-notch strategy, your game is broken. If letting the AI lines run over everything is the best strategy, then there's little point in playing something that actually is interactive or has gameplay.

Yes, that is also a comment on the state of heroes and PvE.

Ensign · Jul 08, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

A good middleground, but playing PvE is not about middle grounds, it's about ultra-specialized builds. Maximum heal, maximum damage, etc.

Note that this is true because most people are not capable of multitasking with much aptitude. If you want someone to be successful at something, you need to give them exactly one job and get them to practice it until it is right. People that can do multiple jobs consistently are relatively uncommon. When forming a PUG, you should expect that each player can perform exactly one job, and that asking someone to do more than one job at a time is a recipe for disaster.

Maximizing a single role isn't a design limitation of PvE; it is a design limitation of the human species.

Life Bringing · Jul 08, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Says someone who runs Barrage on a Rit. Oh okay.

The main problem isn't that things are seriously underpowered, it's that a few things are far too overpowered. Remove SF, remove PvE skills, remove 55/600 etc, and force people to adapt with balanced builds.

But seriously, Barrage on a Rit? That's just appauling. I mean really, is that a joke?

Erm, Barrage rits do huge freaking damage. Imagine this for a sec. 4 Rt/r's with barrage and 16 channeling for splinter weapon. Then make a ball out of gigantic groups in urgoz and blow shit up. Even in regular pve, they do huge damage

Crash Override · Jul 08, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Does the Water attribute need improvement?
Hmm, good question. I wish Water and Earth Magic was used for better party support, as nukers aren't useful in certain situations.

Is Beast Mastery lacking, overall?
Extremely. I was talking with some people in my alliance last night and we thought that it would be a great idea to give pets a chance (the percentage increasing with your rank in BM, of course) to inflict a certain condition with their attacks.

Not only would this make certain pets better than others in certain situations, it would create a whole new use for them. For instance, the bears and other heavy animals would probably inflict a Deep Wound with their attacks, something that Rangers cannot do themselves. Birds? Hell, they could reach up and poke you in the eye, blinding you. The rat could inflict disease. Other pets like Mel's stalker could inflict Bleeding with attacks.

Adding this innate ability would also make great use of the Menagerie; say I'm going to do a quest/mission where there aren't so many fleshy creatures. All I'd have to do is switch out my Bleeding-inflicting Mel's stalker for a Raven to shut down melee foes.

Aside from that, pets also need to have a quicker reaction time when it comes to attacking targets. Like someone else said, before my arrow can hit my target, my pet should already be headed there to attack.

Do you have any ideas on improving the Dervish's use of the scythe to keep him on par with other classes using his own weapon?
Buff Mysticism. I would like to see enchantments last 1-2% longer on your for each rank of Mysticism. An increase to the health gained per enchantment ending would be nice too.

A better IAS would be excellent, and a buff to the avatars wouldn't hurt. I would love them to fix the Avatar of Grenth/Conjure bug as well.

Do Nature Spirits need a twist?
A decrease in casting time would be nice. If Pestilence only affected foes in the area (as opposed to any creature), I'd probably use it to spread lots of conditions.

Hammer much? No, really, how is it?
I see no problems with it. It's great fun and the skills seem quite balanced in my opinion. Speaking of balance, I find Warriors to be one of the most balanced (if not THE most balanced) profession in the game. Tactics may not be the best attribute in GW, but it's by no means Beast Mastery-awful.

I also feel like Rangers need a buff to a couple of skills. I'd love to see Troll Unguent reduced to a 5/4 sec casting time as opposed to the 3 seconds it takes now. Lightning Reflexes could see a longer duration too.

In fact, I'd like to see a buff to other Ranger elites to make them worth using. Melandru's Arrows should do the +8...24 damage regardless if the foe is Enchanted or not.

Also, does Barbed Arrows really need the -40 armor penalty when activating? Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but that seems rather odd, considering Apply Poison doesn't have the -40 armor penalty when activating and is much better at the expense of 5 extra energy.

I don't know, these are just some thoughts. I have more, but it's getting late here. I'll post some more later when I get more time

Arkantos · Jul 08, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

The following Text relates to PvE:

Assassins are still a binary affair. In some places you need them for complete invulnerability, so you take a Permasin with you. But that is the only thing Sins got going for them. Once they drop permanent Shadow Form, they are mostly considered a liability.

Not at all. A MS/DB sin can pump out major AoE damage, with 90-95 armor. Far from a liability.

upier · Jul 08, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Do the changes even matter when you have nowhere to test them?

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jul 08, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Swap the holy conversion on AoHM for an IAS, and make the enchant duration dependent on mysticism. Wala.

If this skill is to be tied to mysticism remove the scythe condition as well so dervs can use other weapon lines. Keep the holy conversion drop the damage when pulling up the enchantment and dropping it and add IAS. Tie the damage increase to lux/kurs line. Have the IAS increase to 33%. Set duration at 5 seconds additional 1 sec for ever point in mysticism and reapplies ever time multiple foes are struck.

I know this is supposed to be about things other than PvE only skills so personally I’d like to see some more damage in the air magic line. Yea it has armor penetration but still doesn’t come close to the Fire magic line for damage. Which kind of sucks because the Air line is mostly single foe targeting and fire is AOE so Air has less damage on single target but Fire has more on single as well as multiple. Seems to me Lightning should do massive damage on single foes. Equal damage to Fire at least with armor penetration to boot would be nice.

Water could use some reduced recharge time as well as buffed snare time and damage.

Beast Mastery line needs some major buffage.