Curse

Operative 14 · Jul 09, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

I H/H frankly because I can get up and do other things while in the mission.

I don't have to worry about being called away because of a medical emergency and leaving my team to curse my name and carry my inactive character through a mission that takes 45 minutes to complete. If I need to get up and leave, then come back 15 or 30 minutes later, I don't think the Heros and Henchmen care that much.

SurrealFi · Jul 09, 2009, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Nowadays it's a common belief that a PuG consists of people who can't manage a mission on their own, which implies that their gaming skills are all but desirable for anyone who usually H/H everything without a problem. Why team up with a potential r-tard who dont know how to finish a mission when you can do it all by yourself in no time?

I never H/H, it's guildies/friends or nothing for me. :-) (I don't pug either)

Tenebrae · Jul 09, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

That is just a result many unsolved problems :
- 1 Heroes and Hench are always there , you dont have to wait for them.
- 2 You dont have to use your brain to fit into a group build, you choose the H/H that suits you.
- 3 They follow your command
- 4 You can even micro skills and its like playing with 1 character and a half

Because of those reasons from above the diff between a A)good player , B)average player and C)bad player has changed a lot like this.
- 1 A has less patience now , like B . C Often dont choose , just play a gimmick build and if it doesnt work in that zone/mission , QQ thread or somethin
- 2 A plays more and more confortable , B becomes lazy and starts to play only X and forgets about playing any other role . C Doesnt even know Hench skills so often that gimmick build saves his ass and he thinks he and his H/H are awesome.
- 3 A gains efficiency and have to do less work . B and C learns nothing about targeting and positioning because are playing gimmick builds and dont realize that the way they are playing are so far from being efficient.
- 4 A will get more results with same builds than B and C but they will never know.

When A , B and C are into the same group , anything will fail . A will fit into a group build , B and C will be playing stupid builds that fit to something they are playing 24/7 and : they wont change build - they change build but dont even have all skills - they will change build and use it very poorly.
A will be pissed with B and C ( sometimes call ppl names ) and B and C will blame THE ENTIRE group.

Conclusion , H/H are always great if you know how to use them and play with them but even though you know how to do that ,it has nothing to do with your playing skills. For me , playing with pugs and H/H are totall diff things . Some will think that its the same or almost the same but hey , there has to be C and B players too

Edge Igneas · Jul 09, 2009, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I only play with players on HM, because that's where people tend to know what they are doing.

Getting through NM was gay for me, I tried to play with people sometimes, and I know I play well, but I would post a weird build that wasn't being used by the masses and I would get kicked.

With heroes and henchmen you tend to get through it not only better but faster. One of the most important things is when you attack something, the NPC's all attack the same thing; that's probably an important thing for me. I can't count the number of times I was in a group and you had people flying all around the map, I can't even do it in Tomb farming with players either. You tell them how it would go faster if you all attack the same thing, but everyone wants to just show off that they can go over there or something.

The reason that Zaishen quest PUGs are so good is because those are players who know what they are doing, they are the people who do everything on Sabway or Discordway. They only come out because its better and faster by force.

BenjZee · Jul 09, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

I do both
Similar to why i love having the instance factor of this game aswell. You still have the option to play with others but there are times where you just wanna play on your own and do your own thing.
Heroes and henchman however allow me to just go out on my own and choose what i want to do, whether that be quests, vanquish an area, just mindless killing... Simply map travel where i want, decide to go which way aswell - spur of the moment whilst out and about. If you make a mistake then you won't dissapoint the group and control the henchman how you want to try and get a particular mob cleared.

glacialphoenix · Jul 09, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Well, before going into the good player/bad player argument: GW has three continents, and a lot of things to do in those continents - vanquishes, missions, dungeons. Unless you want to do something popular: DTSC/MQSC/VSF/ZQuest of the Day/whatever - chances are, you won't find a PUG team. You could get guildies to fill in the slots, but that might still require you slotting heroes into the team if you can't find enough guildies or alliance-mates who want to do the same thing you do. This is particularly true if you're setting out to do something that might take a while - which would you be more willing to go out of your way to finish: a Canthan mission, or Rragar's?

While I personally favour 2-man heroway, I'm kind of thinking of that as a variant of H/H for the purpose of this thread, anyway - so the alternative is PUGging, which brings with it its own problems. Very, very frequently, the bad experiences outnumber or outweigh the good experiences. I've had good PUGs - yes, they exist, I agree - but for a good PUG to form, everyone in the team has to work together, whereas it only takes one idiot to collapse an entire group.

That, and I'm not inclined to walk into a group and have people demanding that I run this or run that, complaining because I'm not running HB (I usually PUG on my monk, so maybe if you usually PUG on an ele or necro you'll have different experiences), shouting at me when they're doing something stupid like sitting under siege, or leeroying. Yeah, these are small things, but over time these experiences accumulate way faster than the good ones. Eventually it'll hit the point where you'd rather trust guildies or H/H, because they're more understanding and they won't verbally abuse you.

I gave up PUGs for a really long while shortly after Ursan era hit, because I don't play the game just to be insulted by people who think UB is the solution to everything, including Lair of the Snowmen. I never really took to it again - I PUGged a few times after the ZQuests came out, but: five tries to do THK HM with a PUG, vs. the one time it would have taken me to do it 2-man heroway. I'll take the latter, thank you.

ele pl · Jul 09, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Solution? Limiting use-able-ness of h/h? Perhaps each hero can be used for 30 mins per day? It will encourage moar team builds that just sab/discord.

I mean 30 mins of gameplay, dont expect heroes to leave in the middle of the vanq or something like that. Just if you pass'd 30 min in that mission, you cant add him again until tomorrow?

glacialphoenix · Jul 09, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

I mean 30 mins of gameplay, dont expect heroes to leave in the middle of the vanq or something like that. Just if you pass'd 30 min in that mission, you cant add him again until tomorrow?

But that doesn't make sense, especially in view of the NF missions where certain heroes are required. So if I do Consulate Docks in HM on one day, I can't do Moddok Crevice after that? Both require Dunkoro.

4thVariety · Jul 09, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Crippling heroes and henchmen will not make people play together, it will drive people away from the game. On top of that, the active players are so spread out so thin that people would not get anything done really. Can you afford to wait for 25 minutes to play a 20 minute mission? People turn on their computer to consume computer entertainment, not wait in line for something to happen.

It has been said correctly before in this thread. People don't like to take huge risk and with H/H you at least know what you are getting yourself into. If you look for a second Sab or Discord, then that is also true. But random madness never bodes well.

Also people want to play and not wait around, so if there was a way to "jump the bandwagon" and join a team already inside a mission, then that would be a great way to connect people. But the fear of exploits and a weird definition of game balance might prevent that. So you will only be allowed to have yourself rushed through a dungeon doing nothing, instead of at least joining in late and play with people.

paddymew · Jul 09, 2009, 10:57 AM // 10:57

My brother once went to TA and some warrior wanted to join his team. He was asked to ping, and he did. His bar contained no elite, and he was kicked from the team. He then PM'ed my brother (the party leader) and said that he had an elite. He then pinged him the old skillbar, still with no rez, but this time it had Ray of Judgment.

If this happened in TA, imagine what skillbars "random" people would bring along, and how good they are at playing, when you meet them in a mission outpost in PvE.

Hugh Manatee · Jul 09, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Once upon a time I was trying to get to the RoF to cap RC. I advertised LFG M+B, and capping in abbadon's mouth. was invited to a party, I was the only monk, there was an oath shot ranger who was using oath shot to spam Meteor and Meteor shower, 2 other rangers, 2 eles and 3 warriors, I tried to tell them to stop, but before I could they hit enter mission(I wish you could bail while the counter is running)... After barely getting in the gate I advised releasing leah the sloth butt while we cleared out the rest of the base but at this point half the party decided they didn't want to do the bonus, 1 went AFK, and the dumbass oath shot met shower guy still thought we might pull off a win if we pressed on... so I went to dance in the lava... This was before heroes, when the henchmen still sucked(you cad to flatbow at something to command them) and since I swore off pugs forever. If you want to run your stupid "original" junk bar(IE oath shot metshower FTW! leet domeges from teh burin roks from heaben!) go ahead, but screw you, you ain't gettin in my party... Likewise for the warriors with a bar full of 5 energy attacks, no elite skills and frenzy healsig with no cancel stances, the monks with 8 burst heals, no condition removal, prot or e-management, same for the casters with level 12 pets, and no bar synergy between the pet and their bar... had enough of "original non-cookie cutter" leetness....

Also had enough of dumbasses who don't listen, everytime I used to go into oldschool Thirsty River, I'd explain how the thing worked, how if you gank the priest straight off it allows the other NPCs to kill your backline, and 2 minutes is more then enough time to take out the whole team, then gank the priest, but NOOOOO, every idiot whamo charges in, I have to push in, draw agro, get whacked while the retard spams "RES MONK, MONK RES NOW"(as in the whamo died and he wants me to waste 6-8 seconds, back then, to bring him up)...

Then there's THK, where all you have to do is sit at the little keep up top, light the torches and let the jade fight the summit, then fight the easy mursaat mobs 2 at a time on the balcony, but idiots can't even follow these directions... And when the bosses show up, instead of killing the ones that are easy picking, NOOO lets all try and gank the regenerating boss while 6 mursaat pile up behind it and gank the king from the other side....

I was henching stuff way, way before there were heroes because of dealing with the above scum, some players encounter nice people, good players, and I have too, and add them to my F-list and never hear from them again.... only to log in 3 months later to see a list of names I have no idea who they are...

AI FTW!

Xsiriss · Jul 09, 2009, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Because as mentioned before, most players are retarded, h/h don't talk back and do what I tell them too, but most importantly they don't have to be raged at as to why you don't take healing breeze on a warrior.

rkubik · Jul 09, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Main reason for me is time. I have a limited time to play on most days and it is counterproductive for me to stand in an outpost and wait for PUG to be completed. The other main reason is the attitudes. It seems more and more people are leaving PUG when something goes bad and it just sets off a chain reaction. H/H don't leave, don't go AFK, and don't waste my time trying to scam my group like it has happened so many times before.

Gun Pierson · Jul 09, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

The reasons why most players choose h/h over pugs is already explained in this thread, but I would like to add the following:
When Factions came out, I was already playing with full hench group most of the time, except for elite areas and certain missions. If they would remove heroes from the game, I would go back to full hench team unless I have no other choice.

Shadowhaze · Jul 09, 2009, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I like playing with people, but often times there won't be anyone around/on that's doing what I'm doing, so it falls to h/h. That's the main reason I h/h.

I don't mind pugging most of the time. I've had some crazy experiences with random people and on the other hand some very good ones and have made friends that way.

DarkGanni · Jul 09, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Last Time I pugged was for ruins of surmia HM, it was a good group and we finished with bonus aswell and all. I had fun however there was some lack of build synergy among the team.

If pugs knew how to make group synergy with builds and use proper builds I wouldn't have to choose heroes.

bhavv · Jul 09, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

Because people in GW today are immature and want you to run nothing but what they want you to run (usually kick you if you run something original and non cookie cutter) and H/H just play with you and don't afk, complain, leeroy, etc.

This is also the reason for why those players use heroes. Usually when you get a monk with mending on their skill bar, you would want then to change their build or kick them.

*Darcy* · Jul 09, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

I'm currently doing HM missions in Prophecies and Nightfall. If I go to do one and there are people there looking for HM, I will form a group..

I don't ask for build info unless a certain build would help for that mission and let the monks settle their builds between themselves. I just ask that one bring some protection skills to ease the healing needed.

But yes, often my heroes would be better, as they have a wider range of skills available. I am always running into monks and eles who only have one build available.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 09, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

There's a really simple awnser to this really.

Control.

It doesn't matter what side of the arguement you try to represent it always boils down to this at the end of it.

Coast · Jul 09, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

because nobody likes to waste time in a way they don't want to waste it