Curse

Inde · Jul 08, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Found this on TenTonHammer posted a few days ago:

The Dilemma of Level vs Skill - How Old Became New Again
Summary of the article: Since MMORPGs became a mainstream medium, players have debated the two primary methods of advancement. Which is better? Is it the level-based system that is so dominate in today's MMORPGs or is it the lesser used skill-based system? This has been a strong subject of debate on many forums, blogs, and gaming sites for as long as the genre has existed. This week Cody "Micajah" Bye investigates the two concepts and gathers input from some of the brightest minds in the gaming industry about their thoughts on the two systems of advancement.

Really good in-depth article! Read the article. Below are the quotes from Isaiah Cartwright if Guild Wars is your only fancy, though I promise you are missing some great insight:

Quote:

On the other hand, NetDevil's Jumpgate Evolution and ArenaNet's Guild Wars are games that focus on level-based gameplay, but both sets of development teams seemed eager to point out the variety of achievements players can explore while they're leveling or after they've reached the level cap.

The folks over at ArenaNet had a very interesting take on the dilemma, which is what you'd expect from a team that put together one of the most unique and innovative titles on the MMO era. Here's what Isaiah Cartwright had to say about their initial development strategy:

"When making games for a large number of players with different play styles, it’s important to make sure your advancement route has plenty of reward opportunities for all," Cartwright answered. "In Guild Wars, we tried to break the mold a little by having the power curve cap quickly, so high-level PvE and PvP players could focus on improving their skills over time rather than increasing their character’s power over time. In addition to high-level PvP and PvE, we offered many other ways to play the game and feel rewarded—collections, titles, weapon and armor skins, story completion, lore. We played around with different styles and different ways of doing what we did in Guild Wars, but all of our ideas were very different from the normal level-based system."

Quote:

Since Dungeons and Dragons, the idea of leveling and raising skills has been synonymous with RPGs of every kind. Although MMORPGs don't follow the same standard rules as their single player compatriots, the style of progression hasn't really changed since its inception so many decades ago.

But the developers of today are the best and the brightest that the world has to offer, and if anyone can think up a new system, its the men that I queried to complete this article.

...From the other end of the world, the Seattle-based Guild Wars developer answered the question succinctly, but with a clear emphasis on execution. "There are all sorts of different systems that can be used for achievement in games—skill usage, collection, power over time played, power over real-world time, skill over time, and a handful of others," Cartwright stated. "I don’t expect innovation in every aspect of every game I play, but if you’re going to do something new, make sure you do it well."

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Link is broken for me. Edit: Nvm working again.

I'd like to believe that was still true. The number of broken builds they've left in the game since EotN tells me otherwise.

Thamior Shamus · Jul 08, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

I dont know how much skill is being used now a days... a lot of it just seems like button pressing. I.E. Mind Blast Eles

Tarun · Jul 08, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

For GW (especially PvP) it's running a cookie cutter build and pressing 1 2 3 and 4 on command. In WoW (especialy PvP) it takes real skill.

Winterclaw · Jul 08, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Here's why I think level based games are more popular: in this day and age, people are lazy and want to be told what to do or given such and such as much as possible. Most gamers don't want to spend time tinkering around with all the systems to come up with the best character. They want to be given a build and told how to run it. It's easier for devs to go in and balance, its easier to self identify, and it's easier to play if classes/levels are done instead of skills.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 08, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Here's why I think level based games are more popular: in this day and age, people are lazy and want to be told what to do or given such and such as much as possible. Most gamers don't want to spend time tinkering around with all the systems to come up with the best character. They want to be given a build and told how to run it. It's easier for devs to go in and balance, its easier to self identify, and it's easier to play if classes/levels are done instead of skills.

I don't think it has anything to do with laziness, rather the path of least resistance, even though it evolves man hours(grind) sure they may be tied, but TBH the gamers of today and games are built more on addiction. X to z, gives xz+2, god mode, it's why I've always hated geared Dependant games, rather than thought/execution...

Follow the drones, Gw2 will probably be a conforming piece of junk like the new aged games,(no click to move, okay pre 1990) and I'll look forward to SC2 and if any grindless FPS...

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I don't think it has anything to do with laziness, rather the path of least resistance, even thought it evolves man hours(grind) sure they may be tied, but TBH the gamers of today and games are built more on addiction. X to z, gives xz+2, god mode, it's why I've always hated geared Dependant games, rather than thought/execuation...

My personal favourite is that you don't get screwed over by the 'fixed skill allocation' thing found in Diablo 2 to name 1. Its idiotic things like that that made hacking D2 so necessary. EVERYTHING is geared towards the end-game. Waste 1 point in something early on and you've started gimping your character.

Its far better being able to freely change your build/stats to vary your ability than simply grind to a higher level to allocate more skill points or whatever. Then again given that so many people are willing to fork out monthly fees to grind on WoW says it all really.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 08, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

My personal favourite is that you don't get screwed over by the 'fixed skill allocation' thing found in Diablo 2 to name 1. Its idiotic things like that that made hacking D2 so necessary. EVERYTHING is geared towards the end-game. Waste 1 point in something early on and you've started gimping your character.

Its far better being able to freely change your build/stats to vary your ability than simply grind to a higher level to allocate more skill points or whatever. Then again given that so many people are willing to fork out monthly fees to grind on WoW says it all really.

What you mention is true, and I agree with greatly it's bs. Then again at least d2 didn't charge a monthly fee. The games the do I have an even greater anger towards, conform to their play model, cough I mean (business model) or be gone in the wind. Grind and addiction nothing else, hooker and sink(the money).

You'd figure in this day and age the multi billion dollar gaming companies would conform but I guess the playerbase/society hasn't voiced a strong enough word yet. I guess we all don't give a shit nor care about how much money we shit out either.

Back in the dark ages Kings ruled, yet the people paved the roads, demanded certain things, and overall had even a vague saying by gustier as to what was right.

Ensign · Jul 08, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

They used to have that kind of broad, flat curve in Guild Wars; they took it out in favor of uber-skills and title grind for power. I find this especially ironic in reference to the posted article; they talk about all the other things they tried to do, but in the end they half-heartedly went back to what they originally saw as the problem.

Meh.

The PvP, well, they stopped supporting it, and with that the game got stagnant and died. GvG from near the peak was in a league of it's own, and I haven't found anything else that really compares. But Guild Wars really relied on having a deep skill set to be a good game, and that just isn't the case anymore. Intentionally or not, they managed to make something really good then made it bad.

I think the real lesson is that you can take a game a whole lot of ways, but you have to really stick to it. Making a game with 1000 skills is a great idea, but you need to follow through on it and make sure you get the depth that comes with that idea; because if it degenerates into a game with only 50 skills and a bunch of chaff, you might as well have not bothered.

GourangaPizza · Jul 08, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Dota is more balanced than GW...

Arduin · Jul 08, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Good read.

I'm sure a lot of people appreciate the leveling more than getting gratification from their skill. Getting to level 80 clearly sets you aside from the noob level <50's. Guild Wars bluntly cured me from this.

I've seen my share of MMO's, but the constant longing for me to get to another level, so I can finally acquire skills/get to another area/be able to wear certain equipment...got boring fast. It's feeling far too restraining.

In some sense, Guild Wars also felt too constraining, especially the later campaigns. Because you could only go along the way the dev's intended (mission for mission). Factions made you choose between two paths, EotN did it better by giving you three paths. However, being free in what skills to bring, en being able to swap on the fly gave me some room for personal input.

My dream of an MMO would be something like a sandbox skill based game, something like Oblivion Online, where there are so many thing to do and see, and without the restraints of "no you can't go there yet because you are too weak". However, sandbox games can get pretty boring too when everything you encounter is just another variation of the same old dungeon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think the real lesson is that you can take a game a whole lot of ways, but you have to really stick to it. Making a game with 1000 skills is a great idea, but you need to follow through on it and make sure you get the depth that comes with that idea; because if it degenerates into a game with only 50 skills and a bunch of chaff, you might as well have not bothered.

Yup, it's the Flavor of the Month that's mentioned in the article. Why make a build with subpar skills, when a certain combination (on PvX..) enables you to steamroll any PvE area, or dominate in PvP?

Sure, you could give it a go with those subpar builds, making some interesting combinations, but in the end, it all boils down to what build can kill the fastest.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Personally i'm sick of always being stuck at 20. I want to be OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND!!!111!!!

Burst Cancel · Jul 08, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

So, what's the take-home here? They appear to claim that skill > time was one of their attempted "innovations", but a quick look at GW today clearly shows that even the devs don't believe their own bullshit.

What's the problem, guys? Could it be that games of skill aren't as popular with the unwashed masses as games of time investment and stupid grind rewards? Are stupid games for stupid people just better for the bottom line?

Short · Jul 08, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Far too many MMORPGs rely on level and equipment and not enough on skill. This is why I like GW, sure many of you will complain about the select builds that don't take skill and allow you to spam or you ust press 123456 *cough*sin*cough* but overall this game does require skill, you guys are just taking the oppurtunity to complain. Think about Mesmers, now that VoR has been nerfed we have seen a decrease in the amount of them because people can't just fire and forget hexes, they couldn't interrupt and now they can't be arsed to work out how. Many classes require skill and it pisses me off when some people just pick out a few builds and say that because these 5 builds don't require skill, none of GW does.

Faer · Jul 08, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Short

Many classes require skill and it pisses me off when some people just pick out a few builds and say that because these 5 builds don't require skill, none of GW does.

The problem isn't so much that those five builds don't require skill, it's that those five builds require no skill to be just as if not more effective than any builds that do require skill. Why would anyone do it the hard way and risk messing up and failing if they can just play ezmode, roll their face on their keyboard, and bring home a win?

Anything that allows faceroll gameplay is bad for a competitive game, because it turns the entire game into facerolling, whether or not more complex methods of play exist.

EPO Bot · Jul 08, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Solution: Forced randomness. The game will randomly pick your skillbar from a long list of builds that work. But if they put that in HA, i can't imagine the Niagara falls of complaints.

Avarre · Jul 08, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

For GW (especially PvP) it's running a cookie cutter build and pressing 1 2 3 and 4 on command. In WoW (especialy PvP) it takes real skill.

You appear to be an expect on this topic. Perhaps you should write more.

qvtkc · Jul 08, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

In WoW (especialy PvP) it takes real skill.

I think I just wet myself

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 08, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

pure skill can only be measured when all sides have the same setup/equipment. ie classless fps.

Very good point. You can't gauge skill unless everyone runs the same thing. But most people don't judge skill like that and instead judge skill based on who can exploit the best (IPWNU) build. This is why anyone running a ranger or a blind build automatically thinks they are better than any warrior in GW. Its also why Mesmer's think they are way better than Ele's. Which is never the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Here's why I think level based games are more popular: in this day and age, people are lazy and want to be told what to do or given such and such as much as possible. Most gamers don't want to spend time tinkering around with all the systems to come up with the best character. They want to be given a build and told how to run it. It's easier for devs to go in and balance, its easier to self identify, and it's easier to play if classes/levels are done instead of skills.

It has nothing to do with being lazy when it comes to level/gear based games. Many people just like to have a big number and really nice and hard to get gear that gives them great benefits. Its something to work towards and a really great reward once you have that shiny new item.

GW is the same except that the items don't give you any advantages at all. They just look nice. As for people not wanting to spend time learning on their own, well I agree with this for the most part. Thats why the majority of GW players and all gamers in general use sites like gamefaqs and wiki. They watch videos on youtube and ask questions on forums.

Why spend months learning something someone else already knows when you can use their idea and get the benefits faster instead of getting left in the dust and called a noob for not knowing the current info.

Also skill based games only work when the skills work. With gw's constant buffing and nerfing of skills its very hard to enjoy anything skill based since its always changing. Atleast with level/gear based games, content tends to stay reliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

My personal favourite is that you don't get screwed over by the 'fixed skill allocation' thing found in Diablo 2 to name 1. Its idiotic things like that that made hacking D2 so necessary. EVERYTHING is geared towards the end-game. Waste 1 point in something early on and you've started gimping your character.

Its far better being able to freely change your build/stats to vary your ability than simply grind to a higher level to allocate more skill points or whatever. Then again given that so many people are willing to fork out monthly fees to grind on WoW says it all really.

I do not agree with your opinion of D2 LOD. Part of the "skill" of LOD is learning the builds, which you do on single player. You don't start a build online if you don't know what you're doing. There are so many ways to learn a build its impossible to screw up unless YOU make a mistake, like pushing the buttons to fast due to impatience. Also you can waste more than 1 point and it will not gimp your character. Waste more than 9 skills and you will screw the build up. You need 100 skill points for a full build. Everything beyond that is extra.

But I agree that being able to change attribute points whenever you want is one of the coolest things about gw and I hope more games adopts this option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

For GW (especially PvP) it's running a cookie cutter build and pressing 1 2 3 and 4 on command. In WoW (especialy PvP) it takes real skill.

This made me chuckle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

Dota is more balanced than GW...

This also made me chuckle and is completely wrong. Dota is not very well balanced. Certain characters with certain skills and certain items break the games balance completely. I used to play Dota for a long time. There are tons of ways to (Cheat) in that game by breaking the balance with items.

Not to meantion that some characters are underpowered while others are overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Solution: Forced randomness. The game will randomly pick your skillbar from a long list of builds that work. But if they put that in HA, i can't imagine the Niagara falls of complaints.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't play a game like that. I like stability and being able to choose what I use and how I play. A game like that would remove my choice.

Game are supose to give players more options, not take them away.

Solas · Jul 08, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

For GW (especially PvP) it's running a cookie cutter build and pressing 1 2 3 and 4 on command. In WoW (especialy PvP) it takes real skill.

Wait What?
In WoW Raids most classes have a more or less have one set build for each spec for optimal damage, your not helping anyone by bringing an inferior build.

And PvP is req a nice bit of resilience and is gear based and some of the brackets are poorly balanced, I mean come on the DK and pally comp tore apart 2v2, It should never have been in pvp, they said it from the start as hero classes were not ment for pvp.

Yeah I know Gw has some problems but Wow is jsut the same