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Jul 10, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03
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#121 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On Earth
Profession: W/P
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Quote:
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Jul 10, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45
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#122 | |
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Hall Hero
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
Again, this is what difficulty settings are for: providing for different skill levels. Could you imagine someone on the L4D forums complaining about how hard Expert is? Everyone would just tell him to not play expert. That's what should happen in Guild Wars but apparently everybody should be given access to the hardest setting. Makes no sense. I suppose it's a bit different in GW since harder settings get you more loot, but this is when you take into account that after you reach max armor or weapons there isn't a single thing you need for the game. It's all vanity and prettying up yourself. If someone is that desperate to look different then they might need a bit of help. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11
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#123 | ||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia, what you want my home address?
Guild: [CAT]
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
12. Add an 'ecto' button to your inventory screen, everytime you press it 1-10 ectos are added to your inventory. 13. Add a 'win' button to your skill bar, when pressed all foes with in Radar range die, instantly. 14. Add a /title command, that can max any title at will... /title 'Sunspear' woot, grind be gone. I hope you were being sarcastic, I sure as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO was.... Quote:
Last edited by Nerel; Jul 10, 2009 at 05:19 AM // 05:19.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25
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#124 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Oct 2006
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
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Jul 10, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52
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#125 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
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Jul 10, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01
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#126 | |
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Quote:
If you can type in those commands and still want to play the game for many hours, you've found a good game. But if you type in those commands then just stare at your character...well, congratulations, you've found yourself a low paying job with no prestige. (This is why game balance is important. Players looking for things other than loot require it for a rewarding game play experience, and while your power loot farmers scream endlessly for the developers to give them more carrots, the longevity of the game to them is 100% stick.)
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. Last edited by Ensign; Jul 10, 2009 at 06:03 AM // 06:03.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25
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#127 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2008
Profession: W/
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Quote:
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Jul 10, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39
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#128 | |
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So Serious...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London
Guild: Nerfs Are [WHAK]
Profession: E/
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Quote:
If PvPers want to embrace a new generation of players, they should stop trying to make people think that it's so clear cut. You're good or not, you perform or not, you have skill or not, you're IN or OUT. I know very well that a match is WIN or LOOSE, but what needs to be emphasized is not your guild rating, Balths amount or rewards. There is much fun to be had in PvP even if you don't win, it's called becoming better. This is also why the GW PvP community won't grow, whereas the PvE community gets new players (and also looses tons, but it's also the nature of GW). |
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Jul 10, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50
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#129 | |
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Bubblegum Patrol
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore Armed Forces
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Quote:
What I do agree with is that there's not really much of an area for casual competitive play. The guild ladder just throws everyone together, which is particularly cut-throat.
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And the heavens shall tremble. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54
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#130 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Profession: W/R
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The most effective fix - no perfect fix for everyone.
I guess I'll chime in. The problem here is that too many types of players have too many types of suggestions.
1) Many PvPers believe that the answer is to remove PvE-only skills as well as try to balance PvE as much as possible. This is partialy because they want to get more PvEers into PvP - which others have claimed in recent threads is a very small community right now, and partially because of another reason I will mention below. 2) Farmers will farm in PvE regardless, many for the sake of farming because that's what they like to do - this means 'overpowered' builds are usually good to them if they can use them. Many farmers are also probably at least partially in group 3. 3) The virtual barbie doll collectors want to slow down the farmers and their overpowered builds so they can make enough in-game cash off their loot to buy the pretty things they want (many of us are at least partially in this category if not completely). Whereas farmers can spend most of their time farming, this category of players need time outside of farming to show off the goods to others. 4) The rpg players (not to be confused with roleplayers) want to play through new stuff and are usually not as biased one way or the other about whether skills are good or bad. They will however get really pissed off if they have to take time away from enjoying the game, scenery, story, etc to learn how to play differently because of a skill balance. They will either play with friends, play solo, or possibly play with pugs until they've tolerated enough of the so-called jerks of the virtual world to revert back to friends/solo. so.. how can you 'fix' GW? Group 1 - Well, I don't think this group will ever get the in-flux of pvpers from pve they want. PvP in Guild Wars is the equivalent to top raiding guilds in WoW. They are what some people like to hear about, sometimes watch, the ones the company likes to show off and promote, but ultimately the minority of the playerbase. Even though skill balances will help them enjoy the other part of the game, it'll still be sub-par to PvP. there is no fix here... Group 2 - We're not talking professionals here as they're a whole different category that most of us don't care about. Well these folks are always going to find something to farm, either due to a demand, or in many cases because the behavior they are exhibiting is the type of behavior they enjoy or feel most comfortable with. No matter what changes are made to the game they will find a way to farm or else if farming has become too cumbersome they will leave the game. There's no need for a fix, but in many cases there's no breaking it either because they will always find a way to farm (even though they will complain when their most recent farm is nerfed) - or they'll find another game to farm if it happens too much.. Group 3 - This group is probably the most like group 1 because they, like group 1, usually enjoy the admiration, respect, awe, etc of their peers/other players more than anything else. Balancing is good in so much as it puts them on a more level playing field with group 2, just as balancing puts group 1 on a more level playing field with others from group 1. In this case, balancing PvE can provide a short-term fix, but due to the nature of people obtaining resource from an unlimited source it can never be fixed in the long run with balances or anything else short of new content. Group 4 - No amount of skill balancing will be able to fix the game for them if they see it as broken/dead. Both MMORPGs and non-MMORPGs have had this problem since they came into existence. Without new content, there is no fix.. period.. Many old MUDs, BBS Doors, etc introduced new content by changing the world either by making it randomly generated or making different maps for players to play throughout. Balancing skills to fix this group's problem is like taking Fallout 1 or Fallout 2 and continuously changing the skills around. It will not cause people to play the game more than they normally would, with the replay in future years for a fling from the past. No matter how the skills are balanced, it doesn't change the fact that there is no content. Fallout 3 life is extended via DLC. Obsidian via DLC and user-generated content. WoW lives on due to new content. Runes of Magic - new content even as young as it is. Every form of RPG (maybe I'm missing a few) either lives or dies through new content. Even one of the oldest MMOs out there -> Ultima Online still lives because of new content. There is no fix for this group once they have played through the game a few times without new content. Many of the suggestions here are leaning towards the WoW/treadmill types of longevity. Balancing the game will extend the game by making it take longer for new players to go through the content. Basically you're not extending the game by giving it more replay value, rather you're literally just making it take longer to go through the same amount of content. That's exactly what other MMOs do to keep people subscribing - find ways to slow them down. The biggest problems seem to be with reconciling groups 1 and 4. I mentioned during the group 1 quip that there was another reason balance would be welcome in PvE to this group. This group, even while playing PvE will not think like those in group 4. Here's the reason. Group 1 players are perfectly content with playing the same content over and over because they know the actions of the other players (their opponents/their environment) are unpredictable. They have that mentality. They are accustomed to it - same scenery, same arenas, different actions. This will not happen in PvE in the foreseeable future. Mobs just aren't that smart. They're scripted to a certain point and predictable. Changing skills doesn't make them less predictable, it just makes the actions different for a short time. Group 4 plays the other direction. They play a lot in the beginning because they know everything is going to be new. They'll play through a few times until that newness completely wears off and then they'll move on or possibly change groups. No amount of skill balancing will change the fact that the PvE content is old. Mobs always act certain ways. The locations are always the same as they saw them before. Now I imagine running is foreign to many of you, but there's a good comparison of these two groups to running. Some people have no problem doing all of their running by going to an outdoor or indoor track and circling the track day in and day out (or on a treadmill) till they've hit their mark for the run (improving their speed, for example). Other people need to run outside along varying paths or scenery in order to have a change of scenery when they run. I am one of those people. I had no problem running 10-12 miles consistently so long as I could vary up my paths, but I had a serious problem even running a few miles if it was on a treadmill or track. For group 1, changing skills is good enough for their PvE experience because they think like that when they PvP - skills are different, the way you play is more important than where you play. Group 4 will have a problem because no matter how different the skills are, they are playing in places they have played over and over so skill balancing won't help group 4. It will only prolong the play of new group 4 members in the same sense that subscription MMOs try every trick in the book to extend play of their subscribers. In the end, they are going to play through X amount of content. It won't force them to learn to like their neighbors. They will still play their way, either with others or without others. DnD Online is a good example of a game that tried to force players to adventure in parties with other players. So, to summarize Group 1 - Skill balancing will make PvE more like PvP, but it will always be sub-par to PvP. It will not help them whatsoever in funneling PvEers into PvP en masse, which at this point in the game is a pipe dream. Group 2 - Skill balancing hurts their way of play so long as they are capable of using the current overpowered builds. If they aren't capable of using/figureing out builds then skill balancing levels the playing field. Group 3 - Skill balancing helps them to compete with group 2, but only until they have all of the items they are seeking. Eventually nothing can fix it in the long run save new content. Group 4 - Once they've played through the game a few times, nothing can save the game for them except new content or friends they like to play with. They may continue to play, but it will still not be as good as it was when they first went through it. So you wanna fix PvE (if its broken) without resorting to typical MMO methods of slowing the player down just to make the content seem longer? There's only one real answer - new content in some form or fashion, pure and simple. This post isn't really meant to convince everyone. Someone really into the group 1 mindset will never understand the concept of group 4 just like someone really into the group 4 mindset will never understand the mindset of group 1. I hope they figure something out in Guild Wars 2 because nothing they do will ever be able to reconcile group 1 and 4. I don't believe any MMO or RPG has ever been able to do that. MMOs actually have other groups such as hardcore raiders (kind of a combination of group 1 and 3), but they have their own ways of trying to reconcile the differences. New content seems to be the key in most cases. ArenaNet has done well with content over the life of Guild Wars, and I imagine they still have plans for some new content here and there. How have some others reconciled? WoW - skill balancing since PvE and PvP aren't split, BUT by distracting PvEers by constantly providing new content. Also, the professional PvP play on WoW is handled separately from the regular gameplay - 20 dollars to joing the arena server where you have access to all gear available War - by declaring from the get-go that Group 1 is their audience Fallout 3 - DLC (new content) Oblivion - DLC/user-generated content (new content) Fury - Group 1 only - still an epic fail UO - new content RoM - new content in the form of Item Shop as well as upcoming xpac As you'll notice, no two of those games are alike just as none of them are just like Guild Wars. I can't really think of many RPGs that still have a thriving player base without new content in the form of official content, user-generated mods/content, or randomly generated content in the first place. PvP stand-alone games can go on forever (see starcraft, chess) without any new content. While people will go back to a PvE game for the occasional flashback, they don't go on like pvp games without content, regardless of balances. EDIT: One the same note, un-nerfing skills, allowing 7 heroes, etc etc will not save PvE either. It may provide some extended play, but is ultimately the same as finding other ways to extend the same amount of content. The only true way to save PvE is new content. Nothing else can really substitute for that. Last edited by CyberNigma; Jul 10, 2009 at 07:57 AM // 07:57.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06
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#131 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2006
Guild: Pun Goes [Here]
Profession: P/W
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To be fair to the post that suggested un-nerfing Ursan and other extreme changes, the last time my alliance actually functioned and had fun as a group was using Ursan in the elite areas. DoA, FoW, UW, etc. After the Ursan nerf people were on less, we never did things as much, and now I've basically lost contact with all but a few members of the alliance.
I'm not saying that the Ursan nerf caused the game to lose fun value, but it did, in a way, ruin what little our alliance had left in terms of being able to easily get people together to have a fun time. While the runs were about making money, of course, there was also the sense of enjoyment that came with it. That simplicity and joy is likely the reason most people trailed off, seeing as in the post-Ursan world only one or two of the alliance members moved onto Shadow Form speed clears, the rest just disappeared. At any rate, though it was inevitable, I guess I should have specified that I didn't want this to turn into a PvE v. PvP war that was all about skill balance. I suppose by bringing life back into PvE I really meant encouraging group play, as opposed to resolving elite area balance issues. Personally, I haven't done any farming since the Ursan nerf, so the overpowered nature that exists in the areas doesn't really affect or bother me. In fact, it's nice knowing that should I ever dedicate myself to getting another set of obsidian armor, I might just have an efficient way of doing it. That said, I've read through most of this topic, and I get the feeling that when I made my original post I was sort of viewing the game through nostalgia goggles. I always seem to be re-making characters, and I enjoy going through the "noob" areas of the game, like Shing Jea Island. I like when the game gives you skills, and when you only have a limited access to "noob" skills and have to make due. I guess this is a reflection of how what I really wanted was a way to revitalize that sense of discovery we all had when we first played through the game. Hell, I did it today, I felt like playing my assassin because I remembered a time back when I only had Prophecies and thought how cool it was when I saw an assassin shadow stepping. So maybe this topic was in vain, maybe I was just trying to cover for some fond memories, hoping to get them back. At the very least we've established some good discussion. Maybe this topic will help Anet reflect on some changes they should make regarding PvE, and maybe we will get some revitalization. Doubtful, but hopeful. Keep up the good discussion. Last edited by Darmikau; Jul 10, 2009 at 08:19 AM // 08:19.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09
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#132 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Profession: W/R
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and I'd like to agree with Ensign up there a bit - cmon, you didn't think I'd disagree with him did you? I don't believe skill balance is an all or nothing thing like some people do. Games need some semblance of skill balance so they don't press I WIN because they does somehow lessen the game. I just believe the level of skill balance (and frequency) required for a PvP game is different than that required for a PvE experience. When the two sides were tied together, PvE was really balanced more than it needed to be. It really comes down to that. Don't do more than you need to keep the game fun. If a balance is required to keep it fun, fine. If a balance does not make the game more fun (in one aspect, not both), then its not balance - its micromanaging skills. Governments try to do that all the time. Keep it simple.
I'd give an example that fixing a skill that lets someone run through UW invincible, very quickly, very easily, then that requires some kind of balance, since its an event that affects other groups of people indirectly and heavily. If a skill makes a mob invincible or extremely difficult beyond what it should be - balance it or nerf it, whatever. If a skill is being changed in PvE because it affects PvP, well that has no place in PvE, and vice versa. EDIT: In that sense, ArenaNet splitting the PvE skills from PvP was a good thing. At this point, there's not a reasonable expectation for masses of PvEers to all of a sudden learn about PvP. By splitting the two, I think it will affect at least an order of magnitude of people than others think. Does it inconvenience some people? The few PvPers that PvE (from what I saw in the other forums the PvP community in this game is very small) as well as the very few people that may all of a sudden discover PvP from PvE. It's a small sacrifice to inconvenience those two groups in order to not inconvenience the larger group of people that just play PvE. I suppose only ArenaNet can really give accurate numbers, so as far as any of us know there could be many times more PvPers than PvEers... It's hard for me to believe people here in the forums get confused when using pvp/pve split skills. Maybe I think too highly of some of the people here. I certainly haven't had any problems. A couple of times I built a skillbar only to change it once I went to a PvP outpost and realized it was a bit different, but I was lost. Last edited by CyberNigma; Jul 10, 2009 at 08:19 AM // 08:19.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24
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#133 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2006
Guild: Pun Goes [Here]
Profession: P/W
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30
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#134 | |
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So Serious...
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London
Guild: Nerfs Are [WHAK]
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Indeed there's trash in very group. And as I said the best PvPers are better than the best PvErs at mastering the game mechanics. I disagree on them being "better at the game", because GW is more than button smashing and "I win" binary mentality. And if you want fairness, you should talk more about the trash part of PvP community rather than bashing PvErs day in, day out. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33
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#135 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
99.9% of PvPers welcome new players to PvP because nobody plays PvP anymore. Any new blood is always highly welcome by the PvP community so we can actually get matches at night. Unlike PvE, PvP requires you to be nice to everyone because if everyone leaves because you're a fag, you can't play the game anymore. With the exception of bilateral hostile relationships amongst decently well known PvPers, that probably are just for shits and giggles, most PvPers are nice to everybody. I don't understand where you're getting this "fag PvPer" preconception from. Last edited by lutz; Jul 10, 2009 at 08:37 AM // 08:37.. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38
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#136 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Profession: W/R
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Quote:
As far as trying to encourage group play. That's pretty complex. For example, in most games outside the online world (soccer, football, baseball, volleyball, monopoly, settlers of catan, etc) there are really two types of group play. One is the PvP aspect - opponents paying against each other, even if it is a free for all. The second form involves teams, whether team vs team or team vs some accomplishment. I'm guessing you're not talking about the first form in PvE :-) So, that leaves us with the second form. The second form is very much alive and well in Guild Wars. They are the people in guilds and alliances. They are the people that you know, whether before the game or met during the game. There aren't a whole lot of games out there that involve group random people up to play together. I can't really think of any off the top of my head. Even playing soccer with friends and switching up teams means you are playing with people that you know usually. Playing competitive sports means you join a team, get to know them, and then play with them. The idea of playing games cooperatively with strangers is something kinda unique to MMOs and it comes down to - why is this desired? I mean the idea here is people want to pug then go their ways. I never saw why that was desired. If people want to pug to meet new people that they plan on becoming friends with or joining in guilds, etc then that's reasonable - just like any other social behavior. I brought some friends into GW and they specifically made it clear they don't really care to play solely with strangers and will either solo when friends aren't online or just not play altogether. In this case, we all met new people and became friends with some when we occasionally filled out our group. There are online games that force people to play with strangers if you don't have friends/guild mates. Dungeons and Dragons Online was one (may have changed). Raiding in most other games usually requires you to be in a guild - you can pug as long as you understand there can be a lot f grief involved. If you think of it this way - a typical response on the forums to people wanting to bring back groups is to join a guild or play with friends. A lot of time those people will respond by saying they don't have any friends in-game, they don't want to make friends in-game, or they don't feel they need to join a guild to play in a group. Well, why would anyone want to play with a person like that? The exception being the people in guilds or having friends in-game but having none of them online. If someone doesn't want to make friends online or doesn't want to join a guild to make friends, why would anyone really want to party up with that person? A lot of games throw in features or have players desiring features because its the norm without ever thinking about why we want that. I don't want to play with people that feel they are being forced to party. I don't want to party up with people that would otherwise choose not to party up with other people if they didn't have to (the current situation). I think trying to find ways to make people party up is a bad way of going forward. Most of those same people wouldn't walk up to someone on the street and say 'hey, want to go to the mall with me for a while'.. The reality is people can turn into real assholes in online games. People can be real assholes in real life. If they don't want to guild up and don't have anyone to play with in-game, chances are they are one of those assholes and I for one don't want to be forced to party up with them. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47
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#137 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Profession: W/R
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Quote:
PvP does seem a lot nicer nowadays. The PvP community really shot itself in the foot early on in that sense and is suffering now. I don't think GvG ever had that problem, but Team, Random, and HA had that problem a lot. Back then players could be really picky since there were so many, which in turn ruffled a lot of feathers. Now, that has come back to haunt the non-GvG side of PvP because now you are really stuck with whoever's around. Even random has been pleasurable for the most part.. Every now and then you get an ass, but nothing like it used to be. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49
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#138 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jun 2008
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Even though I haven't played in about 2 months I still remember some of the lower ranked guilds being pretty full of themselves and trash talking no matter what. If they lose they call bullshit because they think they are amazing and you got lucky and if they win they like to rub it in because they probably don't win that often. That attitude doesn't bother me because I have pretty thick skin and have actually played at a competitive level, but I can see where it would effect a newcomer into PvP. While most players from your play level and mine (which was the level right under yours when I still played) are generally nice and see the advantages of new players and welcome them, the players they have to face most often when starting out are pretty rude. Now by all means, I'm not saying all of them are like that, but you would be surprised just how many there are considering your use of the number 2 as to the amount of people who are dicks. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00
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#139 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
If you wanted to start PvP, it's probably suggested you take good friends that are willing and you're already familiar with - even if they're from PvE. A player willing to learn is always better than a decent player who thinks they already know everything. Sure, you might get shittalked by rank 3000 guilds, but really, once you get a little bit higher, all of that goes away. Those rank 3000 guilds don't really have a significant impact on the PvP community. Obviously there's an entry level where all the arrogant 13 year olds stay at, but once you get a little past that, it's pretty clear from there. If you have questions about breaking into PvP/GvG, I'm sure most PvPers would be willing to spend a little bit of time helping you with builds and very basic strategy. They're just glad you're playing, and they actually get matches when they click the "Enter Guild Battle" button. |
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Jul 10, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01
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#140 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Profession: E/A
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Quote:
I personally don't have a problem with Speed clears or dungeon running. In fact it makes the items I want more affordable. It also allows me a chance to actually be in a group with REAL people. The rewards are still high, an eternal sword or BDS would really make my day (or even month). I would like to see more content, skins, items, consumables. |
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