Curse

the_jos · Jun 30, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

So you are saying those who adapt.. dont care?

The reason these individuals dont post are for simple reasons:
Age- they adapt without realizing the "faults" that are described by the debaters here
Game time- They adapt realizing all the changes but simply dont have time to post on the forum, being bussy wiht the game
Poster- They adapt but at the same time asses the situation from both points of view which i have stated above regarding 'good old times" and "better advanced ones now" Making a logical comparison of both combining them into one view which results in the said adaptation.. Realizing that + the time at hand they go in and enjoy the game with same-minded persons.

The latter one is rather rare on the forums especial when it comes to the Riverside Guild Wars "Now and Then" threads that come up every week.

Let's start with the simple observation that a large number of players doesn't even realise that fan sites exist.
Some will be able to find wiki, but guru or other fansites have no real interest. They play the game and enjoy doing that, but that's where things stop. Others know the sites exist but don't bother using them.
I started reading here ages ago and later started contributing because I felt I could share some of my little knowledge with others who knew even less than I did. But the number of people who likes to contribute like that is small compared to the number of players. And I think this is natural.

Next we have another issue and that's how discussion works. I take side A, you take side B and we argue till we find something we can both agree on. It's no fun to start in the middle and it doesn't really help shape opinions.
I rather take stance in favor of heroes or rejecting heroes alltogether than entering a discussion that they have advantages in certain ways of play and are causing harm to the game from other points of view.
This is to trigger other people to express and explain their point of view and more important to learn from it. I don't know everything and might have missed something.

Part of this is caused by logic. People say they think A because of B.
I understand that, but a lot of times B doesn't stand on it's own.
It's the result of C and D combined. And it might well be that we have a different view on let's say D which makes our opinion on A differ.
When we argue about A or B we won't get closer because those ain't the real disagreement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

I think what it comes down to me personaly is the so called "Balance" of proffesion in both PvE and PvP..... PuGs want only perma sins monks and RoJers... for elite areas adn there is no place for a War there at all.. Im just glad i got a guild , and we do thing with breather and fun ...

This is a completely reasonable reaction. Elite areas ain't played, they are farmed. Farming is all about speed. Speed is the result of chance of failure combined with the time needed to finish the farm.
Find the optimal combination and you have a winning team.
Then it's just the question if the speed nets enough gold/hour compared to other farms.

Only a very small number of PUG players in elite areas will be willing to play the area with other randoms. Playing the area is slower and very often involves more risk.
What's a reasonable time for a random non-SC PUG team to finish NM FoW? Considering they won't split and might face a few near wipes due to inexperience, I'd say 1-1.5 hours without consumables.
You need to find people who are willing to spend those 1.5 hours in FoW with the constant risk of failure. And FoW is the easiest of the Elite areas: UW, Urgoz's, Deep and DoA are far less forgiving. Same for the harder EotN dungeons.
It's for good reasons those areas are hardly played with 'balanced' PUG teams. The risk of failure or exceptional long times (3-4 hours+) is just too high for many players.

Ghost Omel · Jun 30, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

So you just expanded on my thoughs more.. with addition of flying colours?

I kinda had hard time finding out what was the main idea. Agree or Disagree? Maybe i just had hard time understanding i dont know ...

ANyway same situatrion.. read it for a long time before i started posting.

Regarding the Elite areas.. never saaid making PuGs and expecting to complete them in fast time.. i said guild group (aKa experienced players that enjoy doing it for fun).. I said PuGs want speed (aKa rojers, Permas)

If you have read the little quoted part youd see my stand on the thing....Even though i tried not to put personal thoughts into it and make it more objective rather then subjective. I am pro heroes and want them kept in the game the way they are i just expanded on what (i think) an average Guild Wars fan/player who doesnt post and just adapts to the changes..

My entire goal of the post was to show that even if peole adapt and dont post on the forum doesnt make them care less or not care at all about the changes made....They just simply adapt suck it up and make the best out of what they got thus the 3 examples i have given in my prior post.

snaek · Jun 30, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

i'm not following the flow of the thread, and i'm too lazy to quote, so i'll just summarize in response to what i've read so far and expand what i said in a previous post (hardmode/titles/heroes):

1. i never said heroes are the number 1 cause for pugs dying, but it is a major factor.
2. i do believe population spread is a greater factor, but the thread is about heroes. however, if you insist i shall discuss the population spread:
3. if the campaigns split the population into 4, then hard mode doubled that and is now split into 8.
4. titles split the population in the sense of their goals. it is harder for pugs and communities to strive when their current goals clash with one another, i.e. pve guilds vs pvp guilds.
5. zaishen quest and speed clear groups are examples of pugs that strive because they have smaller communities with similar-minded goals.
6. however, those "puggable" areas (30%?) are very small in number in comparison to the "h/h'able" areas (95%?) we have in gw today. it was not like this pre-heroes.
7. final point: while things like the population spread made pugging harder to do, heroes killed pugging because they gave us a reason not to pug. as the jos said, why pug when its easier to h/h?

Daesu · Jun 30, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i'm not following the flow of the thread, and i'm too lazy to quote, so i'll just summarize in response to what i've read so far and expand what i said in a previous post (hardmode/titles/heroes):

1. i never said heroes are the number 1 cause for pugs dying, but it is a major factor.
2. i do believe population spread is a greater factor, but the thread is about heroes. however, if you insist i shall discuss the population spread:
3. if the campaigns split the population into 4, then hard mode doubled that and is now split into 8.
4. titles split the population in the sense of their goals. it is harder for pugs and communities to strive when their current goals clash with one another, i.e. pve guilds vs pvp guilds.
5. zaishen quest and speed clear groups are examples of pugs that strive because they have smaller communities with similar-minded goals.
6. however, those "puggable" areas (30%?) are very small in number in comparison to the "h/h'able" areas (95%?) we have in gw today. it was not like this pre-heroes.
7. final point: while things like the population spread made pugging harder to do, heroes killed pugging because they gave us a reason not to pug. as the jos said, why pug when its easier to h/h?

I have said this before somewhere on this thread, I honestly dont really care if heroes kill pugs. But I would disagree if someone says heroes kill GW, which is the title of this thread.

Pugs are really one of the least important element for the enjoyment of this game, to me. In fact pugs often cause many of us agony and frustrations. If I want to find a human team because I need the extra power, I would ask my guildies for help. If I cant get help, I would resort to heroes, then PUGs would be my last resort.

There are too many problems with the current pug system in this game and there are too many things that can go wrong with random pugs, to jeopardize the mission. I wouldnt recommend pugging an important mission unless you are willing to retry afew times if it fails.

Martin Firestorm · Jun 30, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Heroes hurt PUGs, there's no doubt. But maybe PUGs didn't quite die after all--go play some z missions and see if you still think that.

Coverticus · Jun 30, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Since I'm reading this thread while waiting for my regen to complete in PW-MY, I'll throw my two pennethworth in.

Heroes were indeed a killer of PUG/PUP but in all honesty, it was starting before Nightfall was introduced. Heroes just helped speed it up significantly. Gone are the days I'm afraid of knowledgeable people running characters through the game. Don't get me wrong, there are still these in the game but not in the quantity there used to be.
A lot of people I know prefer to run H/HH instead of PUG/PUP-ing because they don't wish to deal with the agrrovation of the generic group being a pain. And let's face it, the majority of Guild Wars PvE can be done with H/HH. While it may take longer than running with experienced people, the annoyance factor is ommitted (only having to deal with the crappy AI).

It depends on the individual's goal in game too. Get stuff done quick (go with people) or get the stuff done at their pace (H/HH). Guild Wars always was designed to be either MP or SP, you get to choose.

And let's face it - 2 people running gimmicky-style hero builds can whomp through the game in next to no time. So at least there is still the "buddy" element

Anyway, back to my grindfest! Adieu!

snaek · Jun 30, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

Pugs are really one of the least important element for the enjoyment of this game, to me.

and to me, pugs are really one of the most important element for the enjoyment for this game. gw once used to favour pugging (by at least 60/40), but now it leans towards your direction (around 20/80). am i just expected to find a new game?

also gw used to favour pvp...and it has been favouring pve now for a long time. what's a pvp'r supposed to do?

Quote:

enjoyment: the pleasure felt when having a good time

Quote:

If I want to find a human team because I need the extra power, I would ask my guildies for help. If I cant get help, I would resort to heroes, then PUGs would be my last resort.

see, to me, just playing the game is enjoyment enough. apparently for you, enjoyment = doing whatever it takes to win. of course enjoyment is subjective, and your entitled to yours as i am mine.

Introverted Dimensions · Jun 30, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

How heroes actually saved Guild Wars

Before:

1.Join a random pug filled with idiots.
2.Group enters mission/explorable area.
3.Wipe within the first couple of minutes
4.Blame the monk
5.Blame the rest of the party
6.Everyone leaves

After:
1.Form a party of H/H
2.Enter mission/explorable area
3.Win.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

*rest of post*

As alwasy at the end of my statements.... No insults or personal attacks intended sorry if i did.

None taken, no worries bro.

I think we might be a bit confused at who we're talking about here, and I apologize for that. I thought we were talking about the majority of players, the casuals, who don't not care about the issues but just aren't aware of them. As long as they can wield a cool sword, play through the game, and enjoy themselves, they're totally fine with how things are. This is the "majority player". They may not be playing the game anymore because they beat it, but they still hold a good impression of the game.

But I do agree that there is a group that doesn't voice their opinions over here, people that do have a lot to say, that do have issues with choices ANet makes - but will just simply adapt to what they face.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I'm probably taking this out of context, but aren't the majority of players casual?.

Indeed. Er, I thought that was the impression my post was giving off : o ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

1. i never said heroes are the number 1 cause for pugs dying, but it is a major factor.
2. i do believe population spread is a greater factor, but the thread is about heroes. however, if you insist i shall discuss the population spread:
3. if the campaigns split the population into 4, then hard mode doubled that and is now split into 8.
4. titles split the population in the sense of their goals. it is harder for pugs and communities to strive when their current goals clash with one another, i.e. pve guilds vs pvp guilds.
5. zaishen quest and speed clear groups are examples of pugs that strive because they have smaller communities with similar-minded goals.
6. however, those "puggable" areas (30%?) are very small in number in comparison to the "h/h'able" areas (95%?) we have in gw today. it was not like this pre-heroes.
7. final point: while things like the population spread made pugging harder to do, heroes killed pugging because they gave us a reason not to pug. as the jos said, why pug when its easier to h/h?

Only a few things I want to reply to in here.

In regards to Hard Mode: If HM didn't exist, what would the players who play in that setting do otherwise? Wouldn't they not be in those outposts? I'm not terribly sure what HM impacts here, unless you're talking about the fact that those who can do HM can choose any order they wish, hence why it's hard to find people for it?

In regards to the final point: Playing with others can definitely be fun, L4D and other co-op games have shown us that. But how is it in Guild Wars?

Well from my point of view it can be quite a huge pain in the ass. Not only do you need to find the proper professions to make a good team config, you need to fill 8 spots. Then you get to run into all the other problems that I referenced to earlier.

Sure, playing with h/h is quick and easy - but is it fun? I can play Gears 2 by myself or play against bots - both are easier to set-up than going on XBox Live - but I play with others in both areas anyways, because the enjoyment greatly makes up for the work involved to do it. Same with L4D and others.

But I just don't think the same can be said of Guild Wars. There can be enjoyment to find in PUGs, but it's really hard to find and *really* easy to find one that's just not going to do good. Hopefully with GW2 they don't make it as simply to totally bork things up when you're pugging and don't put such a massively heavy requirement on so many aspects that hurt grouping.

AI is always easier to access, always. But not only is it not always preferred people will usually go out of their way to play to others if its even on par. But the same can't be said for Guild Wars, so again that needs a bit more change in the future.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

and to me, pugs are really one of the most important element for the enjoyment for this game. gw once used to favour pugging (by at least 60/40), but now it leans towards your direction (around 20/80). am i just expected to find a new game?

ANet's push is towards a buddy system, which is why they would never provide a full hero team even though many people have asked for that numerous times. Call that a hybrid team if you want.

Quote:

also gw used to favour pvp...and it has been favouring pve now for a long time. what's a pvp'r supposed to do?

They are already removing heroes from pvp.

Quote:

see, to me, just playing the game is enjoyment enough. apparently for you, enjoyment = doing whatever it takes to win. of course enjoyment is subjective, and your entitled to yours as i am mine.

Is failing the mission/quest and getting team wiped repeatedly enjoyable? Perhaps it is to some people. What is enjoyable can be subjective, so I choose to play the way that would be enjoyable to me and I wouldn't infringe on the right for others to play the way that would be enjoyable to them either, if they dont infringe on my right.

There are alot of things that I encounter in pugs that I really hate. Granted that I started on yesterday's zmission rather late (midnight PST), but do people really need to leave shortly after the mission just started? This happened for 3 or 4 PUGs that I joined. Another example of why I dont encourage random pugging. Having people leave in the middle and going back to town to re-Pug for the 4th time is certainly not enjoyable for me.

snaek · Jul 01, 2009, 06:09 AM // 06:09

i have quite some reliable success in pugs. experiences may vary i guess, but tbh i think your failures are a matter of randomway pug vs organized pug (yes, there is such a thing).

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

I've found I haven't been able to have a whole lot of bearing on pugs. There have been moments where I've told people how to do such and such and everyone in general has a cheery and hopeful attitude. We get a moderately balanced team going and yet we still continue to fail.

Then I've had moments where I'd join a pug, we'd have no healers so the Mesmer would run some heal spells and have Zhed with 12 Healing, just in general having a terribly crappy set up - yet still acing the mission, including Masters.

So in general, *my* success in PUGs has been pretty limited with a few surprises of decency here and there. But overall I'm largely avoiding them.

Longasc · Jul 01, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Maybe it is just the perception of Guild Wars as a MULTIPLAYER game.

People log on to play with Heroes. +have a shorter ICQ style friends list for some chat besides that.

Massive Multiplayer Online...?

People who consider grouping with other humans in online games vital will hate this feature for sure.
Those who just want to play and do not put emphasis on this will love Heroes.

While I am concerned about the grouping-unfriendliness of GW, too, it does not bother me that much on the other hand, as I prefer a sure shot with heroes over pugging any day.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i have quite some reliable success in pugs. experiences may vary i guess, but tbh i think your failures are a matter of randomway pug vs organized pug (yes, there is such a thing).

Perhaps, but if I dont do random pugging, I would ask my guildies for help instead, like what happened with HM Dzagonur. All the random PUGs I tried with just failed that mission+bonus, and H/H failed too. So having gone through all the missions in this game HM+NM, I have to disagree with Dreamwind that heroes replace or can replace human players in all areas and situation.

Random pugs, as expected, provide varied experiences. There are some pugs that are very good and some very bad. Heroes, on the other hand, are quite consistent. You learn what heroes are good and bad at through experience, and you can actually train yourself to synergize better with them. At least they wont leave in the middle of a mission or go afk.

the_jos · Jul 01, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Perhaps, but if I dont do random pugging, I would ask my guildies for help instead, like what happened with HM Dzagonur. All the random PUGs I tried with just failed that mission+bonus, and H/H failed too. So having gone through all the missions in this game HM+NM, I have to disagree with Dreamwind that heroes replace or can replace human players in all areas and situation.

I had a guildie who as far as I recall did H&H all HM missions including Eternal Grove. The posibility of getting this done depends somewhat on your primary profession though. Dzagonur HM is doable H&H without cons.
Might take a few tries though.
I think most if not all vanquishes can be done H&H, this again might depend on your primary. FoW can be done with 3 heroes but takes ages.

Next step is 2 humans/6 heroes.
This will make every vanquish possible and every HM mission. No doubt at all.
Only restriction might be that it's harder with certain main profession combinations.
This will also make the following areas doable: FoW NM/HM, UW NM (maybe HM, 3/5 works for sure).

For Urgoz's 3/9 works, HM without cons (excluding DP removers). Full caster team. Takes a while though. I'm not sure about Deep but I know a mixed human/hero team can get the job done. Dunno how many humans we brought though (probably 5 or 6).

This leaves DoA. I don't remember the minimum required human players for it. Think 3 or 4 with fixed main professions and roles (SY, PnH/Divert Hexes and such). Mandatory consumables. Not sure if this will do for HM though.

And I'm not sure what Dreamwind exactly said.
Did he state that it's possible to replace all humans with H&H at all times?
Or did he state that it's possible to replace humans for heroes at all times.
That last one is true if you can get the vital roles filled by human players.
The first one is not true but there are only a few areas that you cannot get done solo with H&H and only a handfull that you cannot get done with 2/6.

Not taking efficiency in account here, just doability.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I had a guildie who as far as I recall did H&H all HM missions including Eternal Grove. The posibility of getting this done depends somewhat on your primary profession though.

And that is what I can't change. My primary title character is a ranger. Not necessarily the best profession for a title character but I am somewhat stuck with it, if I dont want to redo all those other missions. I guess many people are in similar situations when going after titles.

Quote:

Dzagonur HM is doable H&H without cons.
Might take a few tries though.

Took a few tries with H/H, without cons, but it didn't work out for me and I needed the bonus too. Thanks to my guildies, I completed that one.

Quote:

I think most if not all vanquishes can be done H&H, this again might depend on your primary.

Those situations that depend on primary or take ages are not good examples of heroes being a universal replacement for human players. Afterall, the main advantage of using H/H is to avoid the waiting time, if you have to take longer to vanquish the area with H/H then that counters the shorter waiting time.

Quote:

And I'm not sure what Dreamwind exactly said.
Did he state that it's possible to replace all humans with H&H at all times?
Or did he state that it's possible to replace humans for heroes at all times.
That last one is true if you can get the vital roles filled by human players.
The first one is not true but there are only a few areas that you cannot get done solo with H&H and only a handfull that you cannot get done with 2/6.

Not taking efficiency in account here, just doability.

Any area that is completable by heroes is completable by a human team. But not every area that is completable by a human team is completable by heroes. Even if you argue with certain primary, cons, with lots of hard work and retries, and with the stars aligned right, you may be able to make it work with H/H. Even if you are right (I would need proofs), for practical purposes, most people are just not going to use H/H through those areas, if it is so troublesome.

Having said that, I would be interested to know feasible 6-heroes builds that can clear ALL of HM DoA, especially foundry. I dont see anyone posting that, even if it is possible, it is probably extremely difficult even with cons. Also I would be interested to know 3-heroes+henchies builds for completing HM Dzagonur+bonus without cons. That sounds like an achievement in itself, which would be alot harder than just asking human players to help out. Honestly I am not sure if these areas are even possible with only H/H and without cons, with a ranger, but I would be interested to know how it is done, if they are possible.

snaek · Jul 01, 2009, 02:03 PM // 14:03

i h/h'd all mishies on hm numerous times without cons.
i don't player ranger, but im pretty sure i could do dzagonur with one.
my tactic is to go full 8man or 1/7 split to the west shrine and clear that boss literally as soon as he spawns, then run back and defend center. you might lose the east shrine, but masters only requires 5/6 defenses intact. after that first boss is down the rest is a breeze, because now you only have 3/4 the enemies and only 2 shrines to defend. after the 2nd boss goes down, you can pretty much take as much time as you want and go slow. however, if the very first boss is not killed right away, the number of forces will be overwhelming. timing is very important.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 01, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Here we are 22 pages later discussing a post that was that was biased in it's wording, by a poster known to bait the discussion. A more honest question would have been "How did Heroes change Guild Wars" which I think many people here have segued into. The fact that the poster has only posted 2 times in this whole thread shows how little he really cared about the discussion, his second post (Plus I have Amnesia, which increases my Special up by two levels!) shows this. I just think the OP had not so honest intentions with this post, and probably very proud of the length of the replies. While a good discussion might have emerged it was all based on a dishonest premise. Just my thoughts.

Mordakai · Jul 01, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Some more anecdotal stories of PUG success:

Did Boreas Seabed HM in 11 minutes with random PUG. (not sure if that's a "good" time or not, but it worked for me).

tmr819 · Jul 01, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

The only thing about heroes that killed GW for me is Anets refusal to let us add 7 of them. I haven't played for months for that very reason. I just want to make my own bloody team.

Amen to this.