Curse

Sai Rith · Jun 28, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Everyone keeps saying something about heroes being removed entirely from PvP soon. Is it true or what? I'm guessing not, but would still like an answer.

Still Number One · Jun 28, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Rith

Everyone keeps saying something about heroes being removed entirely from PvP soon. Is it true or what? I'm guessing not, but would still like an answer.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10382092

Daesu · Jun 28, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Blame the quest (Oooh, 50k XP that you have absolutely no use for. What an awesome reward for a long walk into a zone most people don't know exists) for that and the fact that, except for the Titan Source, one of the quests out of Piken Square (only if you know about GC in the first place - I certainly didn't when I did Althea's Ashes), and one of the plans from Langmar, there is no reason to go to the Grendich Courthouse. Bet most people find out about Grendich purely by accident while trying to find the entrance to the Flame Temple Corridor since there are no quests in Ascalon that actually send you to the Courthouse... (adding one from Piken and then moving, perhaps, Althea's Ashes there - get sent to Grendich to find the scout sent to retrieve them (and who can't go on), or some such - would be a very good idea)

Some people play for the reward, some people play just for the sake of playing the game. How much reward does "Double Dog Dare" give you? Just 2000XP and 200gp, big deal. Nobody plays the game for its FUN factor anymore? Just because the reward is not good enough doesn't mean these quests should remain uncompletable for everyone else.

bhavv · Jun 28, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokeiro

So, if heros are so damn good, why anet doesn't allow us to use 7 heros in party and forget once and for all about pugging and crappy henchmen?

Get over it ANET, people hate to pug in this game, so stop trying to force people making parties and give us full hero team.

^^

Is this /signable?

^^

This whole thread has just descended into Dreamwind VS everyone else.

Ok, there is like a really good solution to this.

Dreamwind go and find an MMO which requires 100% forced grouping to play instead.

I think you will find that hardly anyone plays that game.

GW also requires grouping for its dungeons. You need to group for many elite areas, and this is the reason why hardly anyone plays them.

Other games where you are forced to group will have very few people complaining, because there will hardly be anyone playing that game in the first place.

All of the major MMOs that are successful allow people to play solo so that they can simply log and play whenever they like.

I really hoped that people wishing for forced grouping in MMOs would have learnt how terrible a mechanic this is a long time ago, but some people will never learn.

Also, if you think that THK is hard in anyway, then you are a total nubcake. I completed the mission easilly the first time around years ago with my Guild.

Yes, this game is called 'GUILD WARS', not PUG WARS'.

The idea is that you play with your guild, or if you choose to you can solo. Pugging has NEVER been how GW should be played, and people who choose to pug over the other methods are quite obviously the same terrible players that find THK hard lol.

Heres a hint - go back through the last few missions with a cap sig and cap the few elites that are available by this point. They will make the game a lot easier.

But seriously, THK = hard = LOL!

But yea, it would be hard when we have to put up with failure puggers in our groups.

This thread is just a joke now, seriously. If you want forced grouping in a game, then go and play something else. GW has no forced grouping, it never will have, and it is for the best of everyone.

DreamWind · Jun 28, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Even doing HM missions, for Guardian, without a zquest is difficult to PUG because hardly anyone is in the area and if there happens to be someone trying to form a group, it is for NM. Elite areas should require humans? Have you ever tried forming a full PUG in DoA?

The reason pugs don't form there is because most pugs can't (and shouldn't be able to) beat those areas. Those are elite areas that should require extensive coordination and teamwork (like a guild or friend team) to beat. The other (and probably biggest) reason nobody plays there is because the rewards are better and easier elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If it is not for the heroes feature, I would have quit this game a long time ago because it takes far too long (>1hr for Titan Source) to find people to PUG with, for many of the quests and missions, before NF.

Who cares? Anet doesn't lose anything of monetary value if you quit now. I already quit the game do to changes they made to the game. Does Anet or anybody else care?

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Originally Posted by ogre jd

Nah. Except for the actual solo quests in NF & EotN, *nothing* should be beatable alone. Everything should require a team, but why should that team have to be humans?

Other than your personal desires, you have yet to give an actual reason for your stance.

I don't have much of a problem with the game being beatable with AI (although I would prefer a team based game). I do have a problem with areas that are supposed to be difficult or have great rewards being beatanle by a non human team in a team based strategy game. It limits design, removes challenge, and inbalances the game. The problem here is the fact that for these reasons heroes didn't fill a void of no humans, they replaced the need for humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre jd

No, the Mesmer issue isn't a balance issue - it's a player perception issue.

No, its an inbalance issue. The mesmer is strictly worse than most of the other classes in PvE. That isn't to say the mesmer can't be effective...PvE is easy and can mostly be rolled over with anything if the player knows what they are doing and sets up their heroes properly. Besides, the only reason people perceive mesmer to be weak is because it doesn't have as many inbalanced farming options that the other classes have.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Largely, the only areas you'd be able to prohibit AI control are the endgame elite areas: FoW, UW, Deep, Urgoz, and DoA. Otherwise you're going to dick over casuals trying to play through the campaigns.

Correct (see my response to ogre jd on thiis). That is how it should be. Again, I'm not saying the game shouldn't have the ability to play alone. I'm saying the game having an entire structure that promotes singleplayer over multiplayer is a bad decision. The multiplayer is what made Guild Wars unique in comparison to many other games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Which brings into mind another question: why would you want to do this? If a player is skilled and is willing to forfeit a well-rounded and likewise skilled human party, shouldn't he be rewarded for completing the area with the AI?

There could be areas specifically designed to be challenging with heroes. Perhaps areas that require multiple tactics of micro and hero placement etc? I wouldn't mind that...if it wasn't part of the normal campaign and didn't have the same rewards as similar human team based areas or elite areas. I object to heroes because they took over the normal game we used to have (and that makes them inbalanced). Heroes replaced the need for humans and in doing so changed how all of Guild Wars was played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As a final note, I'm not calling the game "easy" in the sense of being able to complete the areas. I'm calling it easy in the fact that there's very little you have to do to "play well". All of the skill comes in configuring the proper team build for the area, and that's easily mimicked.

Exactly. But don't you acknowledge that heroes didn't help this problem, and probably made it worse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

stuff

All I have to say dude is, you clearly have either not been reading my posts or don't have reading comprehension. Your post completely misinterprets my position, twists it, and calls me a noob for something I didn't say. I would call you an idiot, but instead I'll just say SHUT UP if you aren't going to add anything useful.

YunSooJin · Jun 28, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Hey Dreamwind,

If you're the last one posting, does it make you right?

j/w is all

Daesu · Jun 28, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't have much of a problem with the game being beatable with AI (although I would prefer a team based game). I do have a problem with areas that are supposed to be difficult or have great rewards being beatanle by a non human team in a team based strategy game.

You just love to contradict yourself, don't you? We already know that HM elite areas are hard to beat with heroes.

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It limits design, removes challenge, and inbalances the game. The problem here is the fact that for these reasons heroes didn't fill a void of no humans, they replaced the need for humans.

That's just BS. You said it yourself HM elite areas require extensive coordination and teamwork like a guild or friend team) to beat, and heroes can't beat them, so how can heroes replace humans?

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I'm saying the game having an entire structure that promotes singleplayer over multiplayer is a bad decision. The multiplayer is what made Guild Wars unique in comparison to many other games.

Another BS. The game doesn't promote singleplayer over multiplayer. Otherwise there wouldn't be features to support guilds and alliances. And multiplayer is what made GW unique? Sure...

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I object to heroes because they took over the normal game we used to have (and that makes them inbalanced). Heroes replaced the need for humans and in doing so changed how all of Guild Wars was played.

The normal game was already dying without heroes. Heroes do not replace the need for humans because you still need human players in many missions. And in all the other areas, humans are given a huge edge over heroes in the form of 24 PvE skills vs 3. This is actually unfair against players using H/H because their teams are deliberately made weaker.

If you still cant beat a stupid AI as a human player, then you ought to go back to pre-searing and continue your training.

Quote:

Your post completely misinterprets my position, twists it, and calls me a noob for something I didn't say.

Because you said so many things that made you sound like a noob.

Everyone with a decent level of experience knows that a good human team is far superior to a H/H team. Only you keep insisting on the reverse. It is just ironical that you can't even beat an AI, claiming that an AI team is superior to a human team, and yet you are arguing about PvE.

Longasc · Jun 28, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

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Originally Posted by Skyy High

The question is: is it really a problem that the game was designed this way? After all, in a game where anyone can go solo save for the big dungeon content, every class must be self-sufficient to some degree. This inevitably throws off balance for PvP, as we have seen with any classes that were too good at both offense and defense simultaneously.

This is a very good question.

I wonder if the 8 skill bar is going to stay. And how gameplay has to change to accomodate to real solo play.

Just imagine yourself playing through Faction explorables all on your own. This just does not work by just being self-sufficient, which would also limit the skill choice on your bar enormously.

The mobs themselves would have to be by far weaker than nowadays. We would have to trigger fewer mobs by getting in aggro range, and not a whole clan of the Jade Brotherhood.

For the PvP side the gameplay would also have to change significantly. One wonders how much GW will be left in GW2.

ogre_jd · Jun 28, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Some people play for the reward, some people play just for the sake of playing the game. How much reward does "Double Dog Dare" give you? Just 2000XP and 200gp, big deal. Nobody plays the game for its FUN factor anymore? Just because the reward is not good enough doesn't mean these quests should remain uncompletable for everyone else.

Oh, I play for fun. I still wouldn't bother with the Titan Source and its 3 prereqs (which also only give utterly useless XP as a reward and are almost as much of a pain to complete as TS is). And they're not uncompletable - that's what Heroes are for. I was just saying why most people wouldn't do those quests.

Never heard of "Double Dog Dare" before this thread, but looking it up, I can see why no one does it - it'd require doing "Voices in the Night", "Moa'vu'Kaal, Awakened", "Assault on Beknur Harbor", and "The Cyclone Palace" to reach. Considering that most people probably can't be bothered to do Voices (since, by the time they have a chance at survival, they're most likely in the final stages of getting off of Istan and thus have better things to do), it's not surprising that "Double Dog Dare" would be a hard one to get a group for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Yes, this game is called 'GUILD WARS', not PUG WARS'.

The idea is that you play with your guild, or if you choose to you can solo. Pugging has NEVER been how GW should be played, and people who choose to pug over the other methods are quite obviously the same terrible players that find THK hard lol.

Of course, if you think about it a moment, you'd the vast majority of guilds give no advantage in PvE, and really are only there so you have someone to chitchat with while you're outside of outposts. Maybe the situation's different in the GvG-focused ones if you're part of the core group which practices together, but most of the time, being in a guild only makes getting a PUG together a bit easier.

DreamWind · Jun 28, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Daesu I said I wasn't going to respond to you, but I can't help myself. The amount of people claiming I said something I didn't say and then calling me a noob for what I didn't say is getting ridiculous. Please lets try to understand each other...the problem with this thread is half of it is good stuff (like me and Bryant) and half of it is useless and repetition (like Daesu and bhavv).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You just love to contradict yourself, don't you? We already know that HM elite areas are hard to beat with heroes.

Even if that is true, we also know nobody cares because easier areas that have better rewards are easily beatable with heroes asfdsadfsadf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You said it yourself HM elite areas require extensive coordination and teamwork like a guild or friend team) to beat, and heroes can't beat them, so how can heroes replace humans?

I said they SHOULD require extensive coordination and teamwork. And even if they DO, nobody cares because easier areas that have better rewards are easily beatable with heroes adfsadfsaf.

If you say "but human teams can do it better", I will probably shoot myself and everybody can be happy again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The game doesn't promote singleplayer over multiplayer. Otherwise there wouldn't be features to support guilds and alliances. And multiplayer is what made GW unique? Sure...

Multiplayer IS what made GW unique. As a singleplayer game, GW pales in comparison to many other single player options in the eyes of most reviewers I've read and players I know. As a multiplayer game, GW is unique in that its RPG PvP strategy style hasn't even been touched yet.

But it goes back to me and Bryant's debate...we need the stats to prove anything on the singleplayer multiplayer front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The normal game was already dying without heroes.

You could have fooled me. Many people argue Factions was the peak of the game and went severely downhill after Nightfall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And in all the other areas, humans are given a huge edge over heroes in the form of 24 PvE skills vs 3. This is actually unfair against players using H/H because their teams are deliberately made weaker.

So you are saying since PvE skills exist, that is unfair to H/H players because they are weaker. Excuse me one second...ROFLMAOLOL. First, PvE skills shouldn't exist. Second, H/H SHOULD be weaker just by nature of humans being smarter than AI but not weaker because of some inbalanced crap in the game. You keep bringing up the point that human teams are stronger than H/H teams, which has nothing to do with what I'm saying asfdsafsaf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Everyone with a decent level of experience knows that a good human team is far superior to a H/H team. Only you keep insisting on the reverse. It is just ironical that you can't even beat an AI, claiming that an AI team is superior to a human team, and yet you are arguing about PvE.

I won't repeat myself.

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Originally Posted by YunSooJin

If you're the last one posting, does it make you right?

No, I was right before I was the last post.

Daesu · Jun 28, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

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Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Oh, I play for fun. I still wouldn't bother with the Titan Source and its 3 prereqs (which also only give utterly useless XP as a reward and are almost as much of a pain to complete as TS is). And they're not uncompletable - that's what Heroes are for.

And that is why I am saying if heroes are removed from this game, many quests would be almost uncompletable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Even if that is true, we also know nobody cares because easier areas that have better rewards are easily beatable with heroes asfdsadfsadf.

This is another example of you sounding like a noob, or you just choose not to read my posts but BS your way through this argument.

Why do you think people do UWSC for? For fun? And what is the team composition? Is UWSC a heroes team build? Why dont you show me a heroes team that can clear HM UW, in 15 minutes or less?

Which EASIER areas have BETTER rewards than UW? Pray tell, so that we would all stop forming UWSC teams and farm there instead.

Quote:

I said they SHOULD require extensive coordination and teamwork. And even if they DO, nobody cares because easier areas that have better rewards are easily beatable with heroes adfsadfsaf.

Again which EASIER areas have BETTER rewards than HM elite missions? You keep mentioning that but you are always avoiding that question.

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You could have fooled me. Many people argue Factions was the peak of the game and went severely downhill after Nightfall.

Then you are a fool to believe them. After spending almost 1.5 hours to form a PUG for "Titan Source", I was ready to give up on this game, because people were so spreaded out that many of these quests were almost uncompletable without extremely long waits in town.

If you have been around long enough you would know. After Factions was released many people hated it and vowed never to return to Factions. Factions introduced allegiance grinding, shorter content, ugly scenary (in early parts of Cantha) compared to Prophecies, rushed timed missions, and gated towns so you have to complete the campaign as it is laid out. All these "new" features in Factions, were foreign to the people who were used to playing in Prophecies.

Before Factions, GW used to have a good reputation of being an almost grind free game but today, nobody mentions about it being grind free anymore. The 2 new Factions professions had so many issues. Rits were quite useless and Assassins were even worse. The Afflicted death explosion was so strong that most assassins would die at melee range if they make a kill, so much so that many of them had to resort to playing a critical barrager.

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First, PvE skills shouldn't exist.

You need to either wake up or get pass pre-searing. PvE skills DO exist and they will continue to exist until the end of GW1. Basing your arguments on your imaginery situation where PvE skills dont exist is just ridiculous.

Quote:

Second, H/H SHOULD be weaker just by nature of humans being smarter than AI but not weaker because of some inbalanced crap in the game.

H/H IS already weaker BOTH by nature of humans being smarter than AI and by your so-called "inbalanced crap". Most decent human players dont shoot into walls repeatedly or run around AoE to accumulate damage until they drop.

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You keep bringing up the point that human teams are stronger than H/H teams, which has nothing to do with what I'm saying asfdsafsaf.

If human teams are stronger, then heroes do NOT replace the need for good human players despite what you said, especially in the tougher areas of the game.

Bryant Again · Jun 28, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There could be areas specifically designed to be challenging with heroes. Perhaps areas that require multiple tactics of micro and hero placement etc? I wouldn't mind that...if it wasn't part of the normal campaign and didn't have the same rewards as similar human team based areas or elite areas. I object to heroes because they took over the normal game we used to have (and that makes them inbalanced). Heroes replaced the need for humans and in doing so changed how all of Guild Wars was played.

...

Exactly. But don't you acknowledge that heroes didn't help this problem, and probably made it worse?

It's a bit concerning seeing players rather fill their party slots with substandard AI and usually very poor henchmen as opposed to a human party that can provide more solid builds and PvE skills. It's hard to say how much blame can be pinned on heroes in this case.

We don't know how much they harmed nor helped at this point, at least not exactly. But games age, and when the player population gets thinner it becomes more and more difficult to fulfill that heavy requirement of an 8 person party. I do feel that heroes help in this sense.

If game population was always going to stay healthy, I'd consider heroes to be more of an Ursan approach to the stresses concerning PvE multiplayer: "Instead of fixing it, let's just ignore it". With aging taken into the equation, implementing heroes makes a lot more sense.

DreamWind · Jun 29, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Fair enough Bryant. It seems you have basically taken the stance " although heroes may have done negative things to the game and ignored problems, the convience of it is worth it given the age of the game". That is an argument I can accept.

I guess my feeling on it is that at one time I thought Guild Wars had the potential to be timeless. A lot of other players (including ANet) must not have agreed with me, and in not agreeing with me things like heroes (that removed the timelessness) were added by Anet and celebrated by players. Fine. But the game we used to have will never be seen ever again, and heroes are a part of the reason why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Why do you think people do UWSC for? For fun? And what is the team composition? Is UWSC a heroes team build? Why dont you show me a heroes team that can clear HM UW, in 15 minutes or less?

Which EASIER areas have BETTER rewards than UW? Pray tell, so that we would all stop forming UWSC teams and farm there instead.

Again which EASIER areas have BETTER rewards than HM elite missions? You keep mentioning that but you are always avoiding that question.

You know what your issue here is...you read my posts and don't understand the point I'm trying to make. Then you go off on a tangent about something other than my point to "prove" I'm wrong. Its amazing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then you are a fool to believe them.

If you have been around long enough you would know. After Factions was released many people hated it and vowed never to return to Factions.

Then I suppose it is another case of we will never know. I only know from my experience everybody I know quit the game after Nightfall and say that Factions was the peak. I only know from every poll ever put up on this site that Nightfall is usually considered the worst expansion and Prophecies often the best. But we will never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You need to either wake up or get pass pre-searing. PvE skills DO exist and they will continue to exist until the end of GW1. Basing your arguments on your imaginery situation where PvE skills dont exist is just ridiculous.

Of course PvE skills exist, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD exist. If there was a 10 billion damage skill in the game should we say it should exist as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

H/H IS already weaker BOTH by nature of humans being smarter than AI and by your so-called "inbalanced crap".

Inbalanced crap that shouldn't exist. If you are going to take the stance "Anet put it in the game therefore it must be good", then I really have nothing more to say here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If human teams are stronger, then heroes do NOT replace the need for good human players despite what you said, especially in the tougher areas of the game.

They replace the need for ALL players because players can now do nearly anything without humans. The only need for humans is to power farm or speedclear areas faster then a hero team can. If you can't see the point I am trying to make about defining skill and balanced rewards yet, well then I'm not sure theres any other way I can explain it.

Anyways, I'm going on vacation soon so I'm about done with this thread. This will be one of my last posts in it.

Bryant Again · Jun 29, 2009, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I guess my feeling on it is that at one time I thought Guild Wars had the potential to be timeless. A lot of other players (including ANet) must not have agreed with me, and in not agreeing with me things like heroes (that removed the timelessness) were added by Anet and celebrated by players. Fine. But the game we used to have will never be seen ever again, and heroes are a part of the reason why.

Given what many of us have had to go through, I don't think everyone's going to consider that a bad thing. For many, the way the game used to be was less "timeless" and more "painful". YMMV.

EDIT: In the context of PVE

DreamWind · Jun 29, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Given what many of us have had to go through, I don't think everyone's going to consider that a bad thing. For many, the way the game used to be was less "timeless" and more "painful". YMMV.

Perhaps. From a PvP perspective though, the game was certainly better before Nightfall and heroes. Its basically factual.

Gun Pierson · Jun 29, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I have to agree with Bryant here. I don't think the majority wants to go back to the game we used to have.

I can understand though that some PvP players want heroes out of the PvP part of the game.

Have a nice vacation Dreamwind and enjoy, don't think about Guild Wars too much

Ghost Omel · Jun 29, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Given what many of us have had to go through, I don't think everyone's going to consider that a bad thing. For many, the way the game used to be was less "timeless" and more "painful". YMMV.

EDIT: In the context of PVE

Yep..

But i think that both of you divide the Guild wars community in 2 parts... "HEy i love Heroes and GW now" and the other " Hey this is cwap i want old Proph back with huge areas.. long times of play and ridiculous missions without heroes so i can feel more leet than ever"

Your missing the thrid party.. the silent one.. the one i find that populates guild wars more then 2 of your parties combined.... The one that observes,laughes,combines both features, ADAPTS, use hybrid team builds of both friends and heroes. put a smile on their face go on vent and finish the UW in 1 hour enjoying their time playing or does VQs for the faction using the cheap PvE skills and/or balanced teams to enjoy their game.. Which when go on the forums laugh at the arguments

So yeah 3rd party of Adaptobale non-complaining players UNTIE and Post away so we can sweep away the 2 others and show what we CAN DO...CHARGE...henchmen are horrible honestly 33% boost -_-

snaek · Jun 29, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

i prefer pve before hard mode and heroes and titles, and would go back to that anyday.

Daesu · Jun 29, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I guess my feeling on it is that at one time I thought Guild Wars had the potential to be timeless.

You are naive, nothing is timeless, certainly not a free-to-play game like GW that requires servers to be maintained.

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Then I suppose it is another case of we will never know. I only know from my experience everybody I know quit the game after Nightfall and say that Factions was the peak. I only know from every poll ever put up on this site that Nightfall is usually considered the worst expansion and Prophecies often the best. But we will never know.

From my experience, most of my friends quit even before NF. If Prophecies is the best, then Prophecies should be the peak, not grindy Factions. However, Factions suit title-chasers well.

Quote:

They replace the need for ALL players because players can now do nearly anything without humans. The only need for humans is to power farm or speedclear areas faster then a hero team can. If you can't see the point I am trying to make about defining skill and balanced rewards yet, well then I'm not sure theres any other way I can explain it.

No they can't. Just because a cheaper Corolla exist doesn't mean people have no need to buy a Ferrari. If they don't have enough time to form a human team for an easy mission, then it makes sense for them to use H/H. Otherwise, you can spend more time putting a more powerful human team together. It is a matter of CHOICE and CHOICE is good. Otherwise if they have only 15 mins for Gate of Madness before they have to rush for an important appointment, and the team is going slowly, they would quit in the middle and impact everyone. In that case, that guy should have gone with H/H in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Given what many of us have had to go through, I don't think everyone's going to consider that a bad thing. For many, the way the game used to be was less "timeless" and more "painful". YMMV.

I agree with Bryant.

I dont mind getting rid of heroes and henchies, provided that I can quickly and easily form a human team whereever and whenever I am playing and for whatever quest or mission that I want. But the fact of the matter is there are not enough people in this game for 4 campaigns, and there are just too many quests/missions that most people are not interested to party up for.

the_jos · Jun 29, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i prefer pve before hard mode and heroes and titles, and would go back to that anyday.

You have a huge /agree from me on titles.
Rather indifferent about heroes and hard mode (empty outposts were starting to get annoying in Factions and certain Proph areas).
And I'd like to add consumables to the list of stuff that should not be there (and without titles people should not really need them except in a few farming builds).

But I also think this would have lead to a massive number of people leaving the game giving the lack of new content and the mechanics turning old.
And the number of people leaving or becoming inactive is already rather huge when I look around me.