Curse

the_jos · Jun 26, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

So you have only pugged with just 1 guy out of all the years you have played GW? Was that a 2-man PUG? What happened to the rest? Apparently most of them didn't make it to your Friends list.

THK has always been easy, even without cons or PvE skills. I dont know why you guys make it sound so hard when I have beaten it with henchies before any PvE skills or cons. And now it is even easier. Since it is so easy, it is a poor example of a place that requires good team work when it can even be beaten with henchies.

Many PUG players did indeed not make it to my friends list.
I used to be rather chatty in teams and would just see if others picked it up. If so we would usually tag along once in a while to do something fun.
Not every PUG member is chatting a lot, but that's the same for some guildies.
I have had several who joined up for events and were good but you would hardly ever see or hear them talk.
I don't recall many bad PUGs but they must have been there.
My FL has been full since early 07 so I might be an exception to the average PUG.

About THK: I beat the mission with henchies in 06 on my mesmer (so yes, I know the discrimination). I had a relatively easy time since mesmer > Willa and I finished it on 4 characters already. I know other teams had some trouble getting that boss down.

Let's take a look at an old resource on THK: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...eep-id1897.php
I wonder why split is suggested....

Oh wait, I remember. The nub king had a bad habbit in those days as far as I recall. He would attack the foes and remain at the place where he fought last. This could get him in annoying places to defend him. And the foes were changed so the mursaat didn't push in as hard as they used to.

Then we have this other thing. THK did (and does) require coordination in human teams. Henchies are easy. They have infused armor, don't rush around, will attack the foe you attack (most of the time). And don't requires a stable internet connection (reconnects didn't exist back then). I've had several occassions were we were defending the fort with 5 or 6 players instead of a full team. Not wanting to res uninfused players till the mursaat were gone (they only gain DP) or because of DC.
You don't have to tell them what strategy you will use and to stick in range of healers (something humans tend to forget when the strategy is camp and they run off to the ballistas).
You still need to work as a team in THK today and it's a shame that hench and heroes tend to do that better than human players.

Bryant Again · Jun 26, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm more talking about areas that require splitting of the team, strategies and tactics that heroes can't use, etc. Anything that is attuned for H/H is going to be easier for any competent team. It leads to the problem I suggested of limiting future PvE design.

So from what I can gather, you want PvE areas to require methods that the heroes and henchmen cannot do, effectively eliminating H/Hers from being able to play through them?

Longasc · Jun 26, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

DreamWind is quite right.

More complex mission/PvE design is not possible if you want players who exclusively play with henchmen and heroes to pass through the mission/area. Designed-for-players-with-heroes is definitely a limiter.

Nobody cries that you need other humans do play a dungeon in other online games. The world itself can be soloed without help or 1-2 helpers for some quests occasionally. Yeah, I again refered to the ubiquitous WoW...^^ GW just has the problem that it is so much team oriented that you cannot do anything all alone, and this is why we have heroes and henchmen.

Guild Wars is just taking the idea to fill up missing party spots with henchmen too far. We have complete 1 player+AI parties. This is just the other extreme.

I just had a funny idea: Remove heroes/henchs from supposed "elite" areas, to make them harder... oOoo... it hurts when one thinks about it!

Nobody doubts that it is fun to play all alone. I often say that heroes give me some extra buttons to click, many people who play other MMOs are really put off by GW having "only 8 abilities". Playing with two or three other players is fun, too. ANet named this "buddy gaming", you and 1-2 of your best friends.

I wonder why there is no offline-modus like in "Diablo". A new mode of gameplay perhaps, the "offline char". Allow me to edit and give me all the fancy gear and stuff that I want in offline barbiedoll mode. :P

Forced grouping is something that I really hate, but it created a very good atmosphere in games like EverQuest. You just cannot be a jerk 24/7 if you want people to play with you again. You risked your reputation. In GW, next to nothing prevents me from taking a long shit on someone's head if I am in a bad mood.

GW on the other hand allows me to play whenever I want with whomever I want. This is very good, too. I do not have to wait hours for missing party members.
But on the other hand, GW has no social dimension, WoW is also rather weak on the social component of online gaming. But solo-online-play is predominant nowadays.

It really irks me that playing with hench&heroes is much more relaxed and easier than playing with an average PUG. No wonder that PUGs are dead and we do not miss them too much. That human groups get owned by hench/heroes is such a slap in the face!

I wonder how GW2 will be. The stone-old teaser infos they released in late 2008 suggested a more standard MMO-ish world, with only one "companion" and stuff like that.

Bryant Again · Jun 26, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

The problem is that that's how the game's been designed since the start.

This isn't a hero situation as more as it is a henchmen situation, starting right when Guild Wars was being developed. With ANet forcing full party play and with so many areas, they *had* to tailor all of their missions to be completable with henchmen. Otherwise this game would've declined much, much earlier.

Granted, it's much more easier to deal with in WoW: raids and instances require real players, sure - but while you're waiting, you can do dailies, farm mats, chill in the main cities, nearly anything - *and* you're still in the same party with the people you started to group with.

Not so much in Guild Wars. Every single area in the game *requires* a full party. This got more straining with the later chapters, with Factions and Nightfall requiring 8 players for a large majority of the game.

Dryndalyn · Jun 26, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Heroes are great and they don’t kill Guild Wars. On the contrary, they help make NCsoft and Anet make money and I personally think they make the game better.

For example, a girl that I became friends with who just arrived in Taiwan from England was a Sims player. So I told her all about Guild Wars (as I do everyone I meet, actually) and she tried the trail version of the game and was playing in Prophesies with me for a while. She asked about the heroes I traveled with and I told her all about them. She then wanted heroes for her character and thus went straight from the trial to buying the whole trilogy of the game. Soon she will buy Eye of the North to get those heroes too.

I don’t know about you, but I want Guild Wars to stay in business and grow as much as possible because I really enjoy the game. Heroes help sell the game, so to me they are an asset, aside from the fact that I really enjoy being able to customize the heroes and upgrade their armor.

They don’t really replace human beings because there is a social aspect to the game that requires the presence of other people. There are many ways to socialize in the game, which we all know, so I don’t need to go into that here. There are also those who want to play the game solo and would not be playing it at all without the heroes. In fact, the solo aspect attracts people that are a bit fearful of online communities. If they think that they can just play by themselves and casually observe others in the community while maintaining a sense of autonomy, they buy the game. Eventually they may gradually open up and join guilds and most importantly, become loyal to Guild Wars because it is their first and in many ways ‘safest’ online game experience. The heroes are always there for them if they feel disgruntled by people in the community. Overall, anything that keeps the game alive, heroes being one of them, makes sense to me.

Ghost Omel · Jun 26, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

This is also what's wrong with GW in my opinion.
Players think they know what they are supposed to know (they were teached to push the buttons and it gets the job done) while it's not what they should know to be regarded as experienced players.
Learning to play certain builds is part of getting better, no doubt. In our PvP time we would give people mandatory builds. Learn them by heart. When people know the build they can start looking around and learn the actually important stuff. Position on the field, looking at what is happening around them, pressure or spike, keep backline clear, talk to each other about what you see (split going on, roles of various opponents, skills used).

Many PvE players stop at the builds part. The least important part.
And many won't get past tank&spank, because that's easy to understand.
But this doesn't make them experienced players, it just gets the job done.
.

... Dont turn it into another "Oooh PvP is better cuz we talk on vent and stuff -_-"

While i garee that PvE mostly stops at Builds... you still forgeting that a smart player for pure efficency microes his heroes.... Needs to be learned or taughet practiced for full result and Efficency.... PvP is just pusshing butttons kiting and positioning just like anything else in game except the dullnes.. as real players think intelegently unlike A.I.. and still Tactics across GvGs are oh so simular you would expect what would split, were the gank be, what be in splits and what build a runner would use..... This knowladge comes from experience... not being oober PvPer -_-

Positioning comes from same thing as everything else.. comon sense and practice... We Vent when it comes to PvE.. its not just Tank and Spank.....Generalyzing is a very bad thing... giving a set examples would be fine but generalizing like that is really silly....

So i stand corrected PvP PvE.. doesnt matter to which extent.. Practice is involved... skill is involved...and effficentcy is achieved by the 2 previously stated things.. Be it microing your heroes, setting up builds for your heroes....venting during a Vanquish, Venting during GvG match and so on....No 1 denies that PvP is more intense and that PvE with humans with balanced set up team and vent and pre-determined plan out-matches heroes any time.... BUt it doesnt mean that all the players playing just put heroes on their team give them PvX bars and go roll through the area.... Some of Us who both PvE and PvP.. micro our heroes when there is no guild team ready to go VQ or do some hard mode dungeon.

Bryant Again · Jun 26, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

The only micro heroes require these days is just flagging them. Aside from that all you need to do is kill monks first, then the rest.

Sure you could indeed learn how to use their builds effectively, that's what I was doing when I first started using heroes. Then I got better and researched the best builds: it was all completely unnecessary.

It's basically what Jos said: there's definitely a lot you can learn for PvE, but there's little you have to know.

Ghost Omel · Jun 26, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The only micro heroes require these days is just flagging them. Aside from that all you need to do is kill monks first, then the rest.

Sure you could indeed learn how to use their builds effectively, that's what I was doing when I first started using heroes. Then I got better and researched the best builds: it was all completely unnecessary.

It's basically what Jos said: there's definitely a lot you can learn for PvE, but there's little you have to know.

Agreed.. it just seemed to me that he sadi that no body learns anything from PvE.. or PvP becaus eof heroes.. Not denying it isnt true just generalizing is very simple and easy way out and weak argument in my opinion

Daesu · Jun 26, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Many PUG players did indeed not make it to my friends list.
I used to be rather chatty in teams and would just see if others picked it up. If so we would usually tag along once in a while to do something fun.
Not every PUG member is chatting a lot, but that's the same for some guildies.
I have had several who joined up for events and were good but you would hardly ever see or hear them talk.

Like I said, most (99.9%) of the people you pugged with were not out to socialize because they were only interested to get the mission done. Therefore, pugging is hardly an activity fit for socializing. At least guidies have a longer time to get to know one another. I bet you know more than 1 person in your guild by now compared to pugging.

Quote:

I don't recall many bad PUGs but they must have been there.
My FL has been full since early 07 so I might be an exception to the average PUG.

You still have to admit that most people you pugged with were not interested to socialize. Most people who join a pug do so not because they want to make new friends, they join a pug to get a mission done and if they think that the mission would not be done they simply rage quit instead of being polite.

Quote:

About THK: I beat the mission with henchies in 06 on my mesmer (so yes, I know the discrimination). I had a relatively easy time since mesmer > Willa and I finished it on 4 characters already.

I have a total of 16 PvE characters across both accounts today that have completed all campaigns and have all towns and outposts in GW with everything unlocked and all PvE skills for everyone of them. I have done THK more than 16 times though since I have also done it in HM. I have tried it with PUGs, henchies, and heroes. THK is easy even in HM, and even compared to DoA NM. DoA HM is a lot harder with its environmental effects. Many prophecies missions are not difficult if you read up, they are just long and boring.

Quote:

I know other teams had some trouble getting that boss down.

Yes those were the days and because a mesmer was one of my first characters, I had a tough time trying to find a PUG as most of them dont believe in a mesmer.

Quote:

Let's take a look at an old resource on THK: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...eep-id1897.php
I wonder why split is suggested....

Since I have done it 20+ times with different PUGs, some failed, some succeeded, I can tell you that most PUGs who stay at the king would succeed. You can also succeed with splitting but it is riskier should someone make a mistake, so why take the risk?

Quote:

Oh wait, I remember. The nub king had a bad habbit in those days as far as I recall. He would attack the foes and remain at the place where he fought last. This could get him in annoying places to defend him. And the foes were changed so the mursaat didn't push in as hard as they used to.

This is not a problem if you have good healers and everyone in your team is infused. If you split, and a monk makes a mistake to cause the death of his tank it can lead to a chain effect of wiping out most of the split group. With the bonus effect, if the beacons are lit, that can easily overwhelm the rest of the team. If you dont split, and someone dies, at least you have enough people to pick up the slack and do a quick res. And if someone forgot about taking care of the king, another would notice it and make some noise.

Quote:

Then we have this other thing. THK did (and does) require coordination in human teams. Henchies are easy. They have infused armor, don't rush around, will attack the foe you attack (most of the time). And don't requires a stable internet connection (reconnects didn't exist back then). I've had several occassions were we were defending the fort with 5 or 6 players instead of a full team. Not wanting to res uninfused players till the mursaat were gone (they only gain DP) or because of DC.

Uninfused players in THK are a liability either way because they are stupid. Just because H/H happens to be infused if the owner player is infused doesn't imply H/H is overpowered. In the same way, players who are stupid and rage quit the mission, doesn't imply H/H is overpowered either. It just means they are more reliable. You can also form a reliable human team from a good guild too.

A human team can also not rush around and call targets. Calling targets is just PvE 101, not good team co-ordination. If you want to see a great team co-ordination join a good GvG guild who use vent, co-ordinate spikes, etc. Even my PvE guild team uses vent to co-ordinate elite missions.

Quote:

You don't have to tell them what strategy you will use and to stick in range of healers (something humans tend to forget when the strategy is camp and they run off to the ballistas).
You still need to work as a team in THK today and it's a shame that hench and heroes tend to do that better than human players.

Not true, hench and heroes dont do that better than human players. Unless you dont count my guildies as humans.

They do it better than unreliable and extremely stupid players yes, but not better than even an average human player. At least an average human player doesnt try to shoot through walls and he moves out of AoE fast. My stupid Olias dies even to a chaos storm if I dont bother to flag him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

Even something as simple as requiring multiple switches hit at once would eliminate heroes from an area. That isn't necessarily what I'm talking about though. I'm more talking about areas that require splitting of the team, strategies and tactics that heroes can't use, etc. Anything that is attuned for H/H is going to be easier for any competent team. It leads to the problem I suggested of limiting future PvE design.

There are already such areas in the game. Many areas are not completable or very hard to complete with H/H. The Eternal Grove is one, and elite missions. But the disadvantage of making ALL the areas like that, is it would make it diffcult to play if you can't find players, so players would only play this game sometimes. A year or 2 from now after GW2 is released, the population of GW1 would be reduced even further, so many areas of GW1 is going to be difficult to play with if all areas can't be used with H/H, so the game dies faster if it doesn't have that critical mass of players.

Also if you cant sleep and decide to play GW at midnight, you would also not be able to play since you wont have enough human players. Furthermore, if you are playing an unpopular class, like a mesmer before PvE skills time, you would have problems playing this game too, although you would have to rely more on helpful guildies.

the_jos · Jun 26, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

Agreed.. it just seemed to me that he sadi that no body learns anything from PvE.. or PvP because of heroes.. Not denying it isnt true just generalizing is very simple and easy way out and weak argument in my opinion

Sorry if you misunderstood me there, I'm not arguing that people ain't learning anymore because of heroes.

The example of my work shows that experience decreases over time till the moment people need to catch up again. This doesn't happen fast, it takes a long time to get to a problematic point and at first is almost not noticable.
It also doesn't mean people ain't learning anymore, it's just that they learn to focus more on the execution of things instead of the basics.
This might look like efficiency but is damaging in the long run. There is also no real blame or something here, it's kinda 'natural' that it happens.

But what happened with Guild Wars is that on the PvE side the need to learn the basics was somewhat taken away.
First by the introduction of far more powerfull skills in Factions and NF. Some individual consumables were introduced, can't remember when. Then we got EotN with a massive number of PvE skills and partywide consumables.
With the various chapters people also got more spread through the game. So meeting more experienced players became harder, specially since many started to play somewhat exclusive in Guild and Alliance teams.
Last but not least we got titles that keep everybody busy but everyone is busy on different things.
This all contributes to an environment where learning tricks instead of basics pays more.

Heroes don't have a clear fit in this picture.
8 human players adds a certain level of coordinating complexity that, when executed right, can be far more powerfull than any team with heroes can achieve. But from time perspective, specially non-farming, every unorganised event is faster teamed with 2/6 than 8 humans except in very active guilds.
The learning disadvantage here is more that 2/6 is chosen because it's faster.
People don't cover the basics but either expect the other to know them or just doesn't care since the hero builds will do their job. Covering basics is something that's more done in full human teams.
But this is a very minor issue compared to the things I mentioned above.

To be honest, I have very mixed feelings about heroes.
On one side they are a blessing. Waiting times are completely gone.
And this is also one of the problems. Unless when organising something it became harder to team up with a full human team because it's often more time-efficient to load a couple of heroes instead of waiting for additional human players to show. An example: when I can do a vanq in 30 mins with 2humans + heroes it would be stupid to wait for a full human team that can do the same vanq in 20 mins but takes an additional 20 mins to form...

Maybe this explains a bit of my view on heroes and the game in general.

Daesu · Jun 27, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

To be honest, I have very mixed feelings about heroes.
On one side they are a blessing. Waiting times are completely gone.
And this is also one of the problems. Unless when organising something it became harder to team up with a full human team because it's often more time-efficient to load a couple of heroes instead of waiting for additional human players to show. An example: when I can do a vanq in 30 mins with 2humans + heroes it would be stupid to wait for a full human team that can do the same vanq in 20 mins but takes an additional 20 mins to form...

Let me give you another example. Back in 2005, before heroes existed, my mesmer wanted to do some end game quests, after completing Prophecies. They are called the Titan quests and unfortunately these quests are not popular. It was already difficult to find a PUG as a mesmer, but to find PUG for the Titan quest is many times worse. I finally got to complete "Titan Source", the last of the Titan quest, after waiting more than an hour to form the team! You can't use henchies for most of these quests because they are too low level at those areas. Can you imagine if after taking 1+ hour to form, people start to die and rage quit?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10383762

From this thread, GW2 may be late 2010 or 2011+. Do you see any Sorrow Furnance type new content update in the horizon? No, because the artists are all enaged in GW2 development. So we have to make do with repeated content in GW1 for the next 1 to 2.5 years or more! I expect some to give up and leave the game even though zquests and zmissions provided more reasons for people to repeat content, I doubt the game would survive well for so many years without any new content.

Therefore, I still feel that getting rid of heroes, at this stage, for the next 2.5 years while we wait for GW2 to be released, without any new content, would be a mistake. It will cause GW1 to die even faster as people leave and more missions/quests become uncompletable since heroes are gone.

chikorita23 · Jun 27, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I'm glad GuildWars introduce hero! And this is how I keep on play Guildwars.

Pugs < seriously there are a lot of rude, sarcastic and bitter pugs out there. I remember before NF, my gaming mood could be totally ruined because of these pugs! And that defeat the purposes of playing an online game at my leisure.

DreamWind · Jun 27, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So from what I can gather, you want PvE areas to require methods that the heroes and henchmen cannot do, effectively eliminating H/Hers from being able to play through them?

That would be my preference yes. But I don't think the game can be designed that way...some areas are going to have to be beatable alone. But when it comes to elite areas, it should require humans to complete. When it comes to areas with superior rewards, it should require humans to complete.

Also I see a lot of people going on about how mesmers can't find a team and how prophecies missions are easy etc. First of all about mesmers, the game is inbalanced. If there was balance all classes would be equally wanted. Second about things being easy, people need to realize that there has been a power creep. I shouldn't have to explain this (again). Our characters are so much more powerful today its not even funny.

Mokeiro · Jun 27, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

So, if heros are so damn good, why anet doesn't allow us to use 7 heros in party and forget once and for all about pugging and crappy henchmen?

Get over it ANET, people hate to pug in this game, so stop trying to force people making parties and give us full hero team.

^^

Daesu · Jun 27, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That would be my preference yes. But I don't think the game can be designed that way...some areas are going to have to be beatable alone. But when it comes to elite areas, it should require humans to complete. When it comes to areas with superior rewards, it should require humans to complete.

I dont think you realize that many players have already left the game and whoever that are left are concentrated in the zquests areas. There are many quests that you can hardly find anybody to be interested. For example, "Titan Source" good luck trying to find enough people to form a full pug for that. Some other quests like "Double Dog Dare", same problem. Even doing HM missions, for Guardian, without a zquest is difficult to PUG because hardly anyone is in the area and if there happens to be someone trying to form a group, it is for NM. Elite areas should require humans? Have you ever tried forming a full PUG in DoA? Killing the heroes feature would just cause more people to give up and leave the game forming a vicious cycle of leavers.

If it is not for the heroes feature, I would have quit this game a long time ago because it takes far too long (>1hr for Titan Source) to find people to PUG with, for many of the quests and missions, before NF.

Stolen Souls · Jun 27, 2009, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Personally I'm greatful for the intro of heros. For me they made the game much more fun. I had given up on PuGs LONG before heros were introduced (like many of the 'solo-players'). Before heros came out I wasn't PuG'ing...I was soloing, with henchies. Seems like a lot of people think that as soon as heros came around, everyone stopped with PuGs all at once. This isn't really true, for the most part. Most of the people that solo with heros now, solod with henchies before. Heros just made it more fun.

For most of us that solo, heros didn't "kill" PuGs. Bad PuGs "killed" PuGs. And with or without heros, we'd still be soloing with our team of bots.

So in short:

"How did Heroes kill Guild Wars?"

They didn't. For me they kept it alive.

ogre_jd · Jun 27, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

[QUOTE=DreamWind;4712252]That would be my preference yes. But I don't think the game can be designed that way...some areas are going to have to be beatable alone./quote]

Nah. Except for the actual solo quests in NF & EotN, *nothing* should be beatable alone. Everything should require a team, but why should that team have to be humans?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But when it comes to elite areas, it should require humans to complete. When it comes to areas with superior rewards, it should require humans to complete.

Other than your personal desires, you have yet to give an actual reason for your stance. (unless it appeared in a message buried due to the last-visited time getting updated to the current time due to lag on several occasions :/)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Also I see a lot of people going on about how mesmers can't find a team and how prophecies missions are easy etc. First of all about mesmers, the game is inbalanced. If there was balance all classes would be equally wanted.

No, the Mesmer issue isn't a balance issue - it's a player perception issue. Mostly caused by AoE damage being drooled over (and there being, what? 2 AoE damage skills for Mesmers?), humans for the most part being pretty bad at interrupts, people thinking that's all Mesmers are good for, and people giving up on playing their Mesmers rather than trying anything else when they find themselves no good at interrupting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont think you realize that many players have already left the game and whoever that are left are concentrated in the zquests areas.

Of course, are still plenty of people in most outposts (the American District ones, anyways), just not multiple districts full (ie, more than 125 people). Sure, a few of the more out of the way ones (such as Bai Pasu Reach and Edelon(?) Terrace in the Jade Sea or Maguuma Stade) tend to only have people popping in to use the merchant or chest and then heading back out, but most have more than enough to fill several groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There are many quests that you can hardly find anybody to be interested. For example, "Titan Source" good luck trying to find enough people to form a full pug for that.

Blame the quest (Oooh, 50k XP that you have absolutely no use for. What an awesome reward for a long walk into a zone most people don't know exists) for that and the fact that, except for the Titan Source, one of the quests out of Piken Square (only if you know about GC in the first place - I certainly didn't when I did Althea's Ashes), and one of the plans from Langmar, there is no reason to go to the Grendich Courthouse. Bet most people find out about Grendich purely by accident while trying to find the entrance to the Flame Temple Corridor since there are no quests in Ascalon that actually send you to the Courthouse... (adding one from Piken and then moving, perhaps, Althea's Ashes there - get sent to Grendich to find the scout sent to retrieve them (and who can't go on), or some such - would be a very good idea)

Bryant Again · Jun 27, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That would be my preference yes. But I don't think the game can be designed that way...some areas are going to have to be beatable alone. But when it comes to elite areas, it should require humans to complete. When it comes to areas with superior rewards, it should require humans to complete.

Largely, the only areas you'd be able to prohibit AI control are the endgame elite areas: FoW, UW, Deep, Urgoz, and DoA. Otherwise you're going to dick over casuals trying to play through the campaigns.

But honestly, if you didn't want players to be able to run with heroes in certain areas I don't see why you wouldn't just make it so you can't bring them. Saves the player some hassle of going into an area then getting screwed over by the dungeon format halfway through it.

Which brings into mind another question: why would you want to do this? If a player is skilled and is willing to forfeit a well-rounded and likewise skilled human party, shouldn't he be rewarded for completing the area with the AI?

As a final note, I'm not calling the game "easy" in the sense of being able to complete the areas. I'm calling it easy in the fact that there's very little you have to do to "play well". All of the skill comes in configuring the proper team build for the area, and that's easily mimicked.

Skyy High · Jun 27, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The problem is that that's how the game's been designed since the start.

This isn't a hero situation as more as it is a henchmen situation, starting right when Guild Wars was being developed. With ANet forcing full party play and with so many areas, they *had* to tailor all of their missions to be completable with henchmen. Otherwise this game would've declined much, much earlier.

Granted, it's much more easier to deal with in WoW: raids and instances require real players, sure - but while you're waiting, you can do dailies, farm mats, chill in the main cities, nearly anything - *and* you're still in the same party with the people you started to group with.

Not so much in Guild Wars. Every single area in the game *requires* a full party. This got more straining with the later chapters, with Factions and Nightfall requiring 8 players for a large majority of the game.

The question is: is it really a problem that the game was designed this way? After all, in a game where anyone can go solo save for the big dungeon content, every class must be self-sufficient to some degree. This inevitably throws off balance for PvP, as we have seen with any classes that were too good at both offense and defense simultaneously.

Bryant Again · Jun 27, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

The question is: is it really a problem that the game was designed this way? After all, in a game where anyone can go solo save for the big dungeon content, every class must be self-sufficient to some degree. This inevitably throws off balance for PvP, as we have seen with any classes that were too good at both offense and defense simultaneously.

I suppose the game design is a problem if you consider what we have right now to be a problem. I personally consider the game's current state to be more of an inevitability due to how the game started out.

And yeah, the soloing problem sounds like it could be a pretty iffy issue with GW2.