Curse

Daesu · Jun 23, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Let me rephrase. The fact that an elite area with superior rewards is H/Hable is a problem. The fact that it is being speedcleared by inbalanced options is a joke beyond the scope of this thread.

Learn to read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Even if it is possible to H/H through it, the loot would not be as good because a human team can accomplish the same area in HM with even fewer players or they can accomplish them faster, giving more loot in the same amount of time due to faster runs.

HM DoA is still being farmed for torment stones. I dont think it is that DoA rewards suck, DoA has its own unique rewards but they are more limited. Besides, FoW is also alot easier compared to DoA.

Zwei2stein is right, people dont bother to farm them using H/H because it is alot more worthwhile to join SC teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

It's very possible to do most of the the elite areas with several spots filled in by heroes. It's not as fast as a speed clear but it works.

It is not worthwhile to use H/H to farm those areas because you can never beat the timing of an experienced SC team with H/H. The faster you clear, the more loot you get in the same amount of time. This is why most people join SC teams to farm those areas.

the_jos · Jun 23, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It is a problem. Elite areas with elite rewards should not be completeable alone in a team based game.

This would put most players out of that part of the game.
They are far worse in coordination than playing with heroes, even if all you do is plant a flag once in a while to prevent them from catching aggro.
Completing an area like FoW with 3 heroes (not sure you can take hench down there) isn't that easy except when running a specific farming build I think. Sure, one can cheat and load another account with heroes or ask a friend to join and leave once in.

Then we have another issue: A-net allows certain perma-tanking builds in the game, allowing for relatively easy play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Entry level? You could have fooled me. It has some of the best rewards in the game (by a sheer time/money ratio). It also has the elite armor skin in the game. In Prophecies it was THE elite area. Has the addition of more areas somehow caused FoW to be entry level? Or maybe something else...

By today's standards it became entry level.
FoW was hard once, but with the powercreep from both Factions and NF it became a walk in the park. Me and some guildies play the area for fun sometimes to try different builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

LoL...you think DoA is dead because its ugly and FoW is pretty? Come on now. DoA is dead because the effort to reward ratio is not worth is compared to most other areas. That and its too hard for the average player. DoA has no place in a game that has sadly become all about farming.

^^That

But when I look around in my guild this isn't the only reason. Most don't really care about the loot. DoA requires a serious amount of effort if you want to play without certain team (farming) builds. I don't mind a challenge, but DoA isn't a challenge. It's just massive numbers of foes with huge damage over and over again. It's just retarted that the original 'PUG' DoA build was one tank protected by 3 monks, a BiP/EoE to keep energy up and 4 nukers.
Sure, the environment effects were not really helping but that was not the only reason to run tank&spank there.

Compare this to UW, an area that I think has a nice layout. There is some challenge in the groups for balanced teams but it doesn't come from the huge number of foes. It's more the variety of quests and foes that is part of this.
But then, why play balanced if you can SC the area and finish in a fraction of the time the balanced team would need?

I know this isn't for most players. They want loot, more loot and even more loot. And they should care, some titles are expensive to obtain.

Which brings me to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It is not worthwhile to use H/H in farm those areas because you can never beat an experienced SC team with H/H. The faster you clear, the more loot you get in the same amount of time. This is why most people join SC teams to farm those areas.

I fully understand that. In the past this was not different. However, they only join those SC teams because it's the most efficient way of playing.
If H&H was more efficient many would use those.
The same applies to balanced teams. There is no need to use them, you just SC your way through in a fraction of the time.
Please farm as much as you want and get some nice stuff. I don't mind that.
It's just that decent balanced team work isn't rewarded anymore, just like before lootscaling solo-farmers had a huge income advantage over team players.
I would like players to at least have an option. SC (and Ursan in the past)takes that option away.

Daesu · Jun 23, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I fully understand that. In the past this was not different. However, they only join those SC teams because it's the most efficient way of playing.
If H&H was more efficient many would use those.
The same applies to balanced teams. There is no need to use them, you just SC your way through in a fraction of the time.
Please farm as much as you want and get some nice stuff. I don't mind that.
It's just that decent balanced team work isn't rewarded anymore, just like before lootscaling solo-farmers had a huge income advantage over team players.
I would like players to at least have an option. SC (and Ursan in the past)takes that option away.

This is why good guilds are important to find like-minded people to play with. It is also harder to design an area where only a balanced team would be the most efficient. A balanced team can still clear the area, just not as fast as SC.

My main point is that H&H is NOT and has NEVER been the most efficient/fastest way to clear an area. Sabway and discordway are just generic builds for lazy people who do not want to think of optimizing builds each time they go into a particular area. If you optimize your build to the area well, you can easily beat sabway/discordway/whatever generic way in that area.

UWSC or whatever SC teams are fast and efficient because they make use of the fact that they can carry up to 24 PvE skills per team. Heroes cant carry any of these overpowered PvE skills so they have a much more limited potential than a human team. Elite areas HM can be so challenging that it is almost exclusively human players team only. A H/H or a 6 heroes would be very difficult to succeed.

toocooltang · Jun 23, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Hero's give me the option to put together groups for my guild. They aren't speed clear groups, they dont set many records but they do include many guild members, and dont require you to grind out PVE rep titles. Hero's help with this because they fill in empty spots.

angelsarc · Jun 23, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is why good guilds are important to find like-minded people to play with. It is also harder to design an area where only a balanced team would be the most efficient. A balanced team can still clear the area, just not as fast as SC.

My main point is that H&H is NOT and has NEVER been the most efficient/fastest way to clear an area. Sabway and discordway are just generic builds for lazy people who do not want to think of optimizing builds each time they go into a particular area. If you optimize your build to the area well, you can easily beat sabway/discordway/whatever generic way in that area.

UWSC or whatever SC teams are fast and efficient because they make use of the fact that they can carry up to 24 PvE skills per team. Heroes cant carry any of these overpowered PvE skills so they have a much more limited potential than a human team. Elite areas HM can be so challenging that it is almost exclusively human players team only. A H/H or a 6 heroes would be very difficult to succeed.

DreamWind has a problem with H/H being able to finish certain areas at all. What he fails to understand is that team-oriented means a team, whether it be H/H or other players, as opposed to solo without any other assistance (hi permasins). Before Nightfall, FoW and UW were restricted to players, because henchmen are forbidden from entering. By allowing Heroes to enter, Anet was opening those areas to people who wanted to attempt using Heroes to do the quests in those areas. The problem with FoW and UW now is not the fact that Heroes can enter, but that they can be speed cleared, which really has nothing to do with Heroes at all. In fact, they usually involve a full party of real players.

It's been pretty clear that henchmen are not supposed to be the equivalent of real players for years now, but Heroes are supposed to be viable alternatives. See: infusion status vs. Mursaat before Devona and crew. The fact that a lot players prefer Heroes over real players is mainly a control issue. Heroes are predictable and reliable so long as you understand how their AI works and cater towards it. Players that you don't know or haven't played with much before are not as reliable or are not viewed as such. This ties in directly with the PUG stigma.

In the end, it becomes a matter of risk vs. reward. PUGs are high risk and high reward. Heroes are low risk and medium reward. Guild groups or friends are usually low risk and high reward. The problem is not Heroes (since their cheating AI got fixed, anyway).

Ghost Omel · Jun 23, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

DreamWind has a problem with H/H being able to finish certain areas at all. What he fails to understand is that team-oriented means a team, whether it be H/H or other players, as opposed to solo without any other assistance (hi permasins). Before Nightfall, FoW and UW were restricted to players, because henchmen are forbidden from entering. By allowing Heroes to enter, Anet was opening those areas to people who wanted to attempt using Heroes to do the quests in those areas. The problem with FoW and UW now is not the fact that Heroes can enter, but that they can be speed cleared, which really has nothing to do with Heroes at all. In fact, they usually involve a full party of real players.

It's been pretty clear that henchmen are not supposed to be the equivalent of real players for years now, but Heroes are supposed to be viable alternatives. See: infusion status vs. Mursaat before Devona and crew. The fact that a lot players prefer Heroes over real players is mainly a control issue. Heroes are predictable and reliable so long as you understand how their AI works and cater towards it. Players that you don't know or haven't played with much before are not as reliable or are not viewed as such. This ties in directly with the PUG stigma.

In the end, it becomes a matter of risk vs. reward. PUGs are high risk and high reward. Heroes are low risk and medium reward. Guild groups or friends are usually low risk and high reward. The problem is not Heroes (since their cheating AI got fixed, anyway).

Spot on.. Nut i think its not only Hero hate its henchmen aslo.. i mean when factions came out i henched it....so that means that they should be taken out as well. Correct?

Heroes are essentially henchmen nothing less. it just happens that these henchmen can be constumized thats all.. as far as AI goes i find it hard ot find a differnece between the Hench and Heroes.. In any case Monster AI seems to bne much higher then above stated... It all comes to the player to "command" and build those said henchmen...
I Thought one The Guild Wars box it said.. "Cant Find a buddy? No Problem you can take a Bunch of Highly Skilled henchmen to help you out"......so essentially all these people are against a core of what the game been since its beggining

DreamWind · Jun 24, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Learn to read:

Even if it is possible to H/H through it, the loot would not be as good because a human team can accomplish the same area in HM with even fewer players or they can accomplish them faster, giving more loot in the same amount of time due to faster runs.

My main point is that H&H is NOT and has NEVER been the most efficient/fastest way to clear an area.

You seem to be completely hung up on the idea that since human teams have more inbalanced options than H/H teams (thus making them technically better), that means everything is ok with H/H teams. Wrong...it simply means the game is inbalanced and there is still a problem with H/H teams. Until you get out of this mindset, I don't think anything I say is going to get through to you. I won't say learn to read though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the jos

This would put most players out of that part of the game.

Most players SHOULD be out of that part of the game. Only elite players with good teams should be able to complete elite areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the jos

By today's standards it became entry level.
FoW was hard once, but with the powercreep from both Factions and NF it became a walk in the park. Me and some guildies play the area for fun sometimes to try different builds.

That is correct (which I was hinting at in my previous post). The game has had a serious power creep that has caused inbalance throughout the game, but it goes beyond the scope of this thread. FoW being so called "entry level" and completeable/farmable without a human team is just an example of the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

DreamWind has a problem with H/H being able to finish certain areas at all. What he fails to understand is that team-oriented means a team, whether it be H/H or other players, as opposed to solo without any other assistance (hi permasins).

The problem with FoW and UW now is not the fact that Heroes can enter, but that they can be speed cleared, which really has nothing to do with Heroes at all. In fact, they usually involve a full party of real players.

Yes, H/H teams should not be able to finish certain areas. I know I'm going to get the "but you can't deny content to me" people on my ass, but its the truth and there was another whole thread on the subject so we shouldn't go into it here.

Either way, you have fallen into the Daesu trap. That is...you acknoledge that the game has serious inbalance issues (like permasins and being able to farm elite areas), but you then use that problem to justify H/H teams being able to do the exact same thing just to a lesser degree. The fact that H/H is potentially less powerful DOES NOT MATTER because there is no team skill requirement that "makes up" for the power level. That is not to say that the power level of human teams is right...it simply means that the power level of human teams is ridiculous and the power level of H/H teams is too strong given the skill set and level required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

In the end, it becomes a matter of risk vs. reward. PUGs are high risk and high reward. Heroes are low risk and medium reward.

STOP RIGHT THERE. You just now stated a problem with hero teams. In general for balance to occur, there should be low risk for low reward, medium risk for medium reward, and high risk for high reward. The fact that heroes allow for low risk and medium reward (in your words) is already a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

Heroes are essentially henchmen nothing less. it just happens that these henchmen can be constumized thats all..

Which means they aren't henchmen at all, thus invalidating the rest of your post.

I have one last question for now. Does anybody know WHY Anet didn't allow 7hero teams? I don't want to go off on a tangent, but just think about it.

arcanemacabre · Jun 24, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Does anybody know WHY Anet didn't allow 7hero teams? I don't want to go off on a tangent, but just think about it.

Oooh, I can answer this. I remember the answer being something like their promoting of "buddy gaming." In other words, Anet wants you to play their way or be punished (with crappier henchmen). It also is what they are planning on doing in GW2, for the most part with their version of the "sidekick system."

Sorry, I don't have any links, but I think it was in a James Phinney interview or some such.

I suppose we're forever stuck with 6 heroes when playing alone in 99% of PvE. Darn, I so wanted that 7th...

Bryant Again · Jun 24, 2009, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes, H/H teams should not be able to finish certain areas. I know I'm going to get the "but you can't deny content to me" people on my ass, but its the truth and there was another whole thread on the subject so we shouldn't go into it here.

Either provide why it's the truth or don't bring it up at all. It's not terribly fair to bring up an arguable statement then say we shouldn't talk about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I suppose we're forever stuck with 6 heroes when playing alone in 99% of PvE. Darn, I so wanted that 7th...

In other words, ANet doesn't mind you having more heroes as long as you pay for them :3

Hell, or if you have a really, really good friend who can just zone in and leave.

DreamWind · Jun 24, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Either provide why it's the truth or don't bring it up at all. It's not terribly fair to bring up an arguable statement then say we shouldn't talk about it.

Eh...its been a topic of one too many threads and its a bit off topic. Basically, if a game introduces an elite area, should the non elite be able to complete it? The logical answer is no. The only people who disagree are the "I should be able to access all content no matter what" whiners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In other words, ANet doesn't mind you having more heroes as long as you pay for them.

Meh...yet another thing that has been in too many threads and is a bit off topic. Anet has sold out plain and simple. They might as well sell us NEW heroes at this point.

Bryant Again · Jun 24, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Eh...its been a topic of one too many threads and its a bit off topic. Basically, if a game introduces an elite area, should the non elite be able to complete it?

I was more pointing to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes, H/H teams should not be able to finish certain areas. I

Unless you're saying that you're automatically unskilled if you decide to use h/h?

Daesu · Jun 24, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Eh...its been a topic of one too many threads and its a bit off topic. Basically, if a game introduces an elite area, should the non elite be able to complete it? The logical answer is no. The only people who disagree are the "I should be able to access all content no matter what" whiners.

Sure, if you regard Ursanway and Cryway as elite players.

And that is the way it is going to be as long as ANet allows each human team to bring 24 overpowered PvE skills. They can nerf CoF and Ursan all they want, but CoF and Ursan are not the only exploitable overpowered PvE skills in the game.

Destro Maniak · Jun 24, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

The only reason I play GW is getting titles which I consider good such as vanquishing, guardian and stuff with a friend of my using 6 heroes

I personally would quit this game(which isnt something I havent done. I have quitted twice; once I didnt play for 1 year and once for 6 months. Main reason for quitting was that there wasnt anything to do in the game for me. The reason I kept coming back was the game would become more "accessable" for me.)

Also, without hero and henchmen, for example vanquishing would be almost impossible along with many other parts of the pve play.

By the usage of heroes I can simply get in an outpost, fill my team up with h/h and go.
What would happen otherwise? I would wait a long time to find people, it would be possible for harder missions but on easier ones people would have alreadt henched them (I have henched ALL of prophercies and factions)

One last thing:
DreamWind, dude you suck

DreamWind · Jun 24, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Unless you're saying that you're automatically unskilled if you decide to use h/h?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that elite areas or anything designated as hard in a team skill based game should not be completeable or farmable with H/H (or with abusable stuff that only humans can use).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sure, if you regard Ursanway and Cryway as elite players. And that is the way it is going to be as long as ANet allows each human team to bring 24 overpowered PvE skills. They can nerf CoF and Ursan all they want, but CoF and Ursan are not the only exploitable overpowered PvE skills in the game.

Of course. As I said, there is a lot of degenerate inbalance in GW. I notice you didn't mention my previous post though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

One last thing:
DreamWind, dude you suck

Just another hero supporter trying to insult me.

Omgz I'm offended this guy should be banned for flaming me. *tears*

Destro Maniak · Jun 24, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Just another hero supporter trying to insult me.

Omgz I'm offended this guy should be banned for flaming me. *tears*

you should be banned for sucking too hard instead

Bryant Again · Jun 24, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that elite areas or anything designated as hard in a team skill based game should not be completeable or farmable with H/H (or with abusable stuff that only humans can use).

Why, and how, should they not be completable my H/H?

If a player is good, he should be able to transfer that skill into his performance with heroes.

Daesu · Jun 24, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that elite areas or anything designated as hard in a team skill based game should not be completeable or farmable with H/H (or with abusable stuff that only humans can use).

Of course. As I said, there is a lot of degenerate inbalance in GW. I notice you didn't mention my previous post though.

That has nothing to do with heroes.

In fact, it can be argued that it is a bigger accomplishment to 6-heroes through these areas than to join a human team because it is alot harder to use heroes due to the high damage AoE attacks in those areas.

And for all the talk about pugging, "skills" and "pugs" should not be used in the sentence unless there is a "no" in it. Random pugs are just not well organized enough for any amount of decent team playing. If you want to learn good team work among human players, go join a good guild, please dont recommend people to attempt to learn that through random pugging.

zwei2stein · Jun 24, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If a player is good, he should be able to transfer that skill into his performance with heroes.

Technically, that player is able to transfer portion of someone elses skill to their heroes too as build is huge part of hero performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that elite areas or anything designated as hard in a team skill based game should not be completeable or farmable with H/H (or with abusable stuff that only humans can use).

You are walking towards Raid-style dance. No mercy for mistakes, play the way fight is designed gameplay with exact positioning and timing or loose ...

That is not fun game to play.

And its fortunately too late for it.

Daesu · Jun 24, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Technically, that player is able to transfer portion of someone elses skill to their heroes too as build is huge part of hero performance.

Given that there is no real hero build posted in pvx for HM elite areas (perhaps only FoW and beginning of Stygian?), you have to come up with your own build. I would respect someone for coming up with a feasible 6-heroes build to clear all of HM DoA, even if it is only foundry, than someone who did it with the usual Cryway/Ursanway/whatever overpowered PvE skill way.

Bryant Again · Jun 24, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Technically, that player is able to transfer portion of someone elses skill to their heroes too as build is huge part of hero performance.

It's generally a huge part of general PvE performance as well.