Curse

Bryant Again · Jun 22, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If heroes or hench would not exist, we'd see MUCH more players in outposts. Quite simply because no one could leave them since we'd be all waiting for a healer.

Or, would we see any players at all : o?

upier · Jun 22, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Or, would we see any players at all : o?

Obviously we would since people are quitting because they can't play with other players and not because of other decisions A.Net made regarding PvE.

Gun Pierson · Jun 22, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

It's nothing new that AI characters (that you can level up and customise) join your party in RPG games. Eye of the Beholder had them in the old days, Baldur's Gate series had them too etc. So they were around before we all started to play online and I always found them a fun experience, the same goes for GW. They enriched the game, they didn't kill it.

bhavv · Jun 22, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Baldurs Gate !!!

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 ...

Best game ever made, customisable party with sooo many classes and customisation options.

My hardcore RPG fetish went from Baldurs Gate to Morrowind, then to Guild Wars, where it is currently stuck as I cant yet find a better game.

Bryant Again · Jun 22, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Obviously we would since people are quitting because they can't play with other players and not because of other decisions A.Net made regarding PvE.

This is part of the reason why I personally I advocate them more than I shun them. If there is quite a lot of players rolling with heroes as opposed to with players, there may be more of a problem regarding the latter than the former.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

My hardcore RPG fetish went from Baldurs Gate to Morrowind, then to Guild Wars, where it is currently stuck as I cant yet find a better game.

DnD Online weeeee!!!

But seriously it looks like it would definitely be something you'd enjoy since there are quite a many quests where you can enter as Normal, Hard, Elite and *Solo*. Problem is that some classes are easier to solo than normal, but the partying format is what I personally look for in an MMO. It's essentially this: "Don't have a buddy? That's okay you can still play through this...Oh you found a buddy! Aight bring him in!"

While I can't say it's the greatest most awesome MMO thus far it's definitely been pretty refreshing, especially playing as a melee focused character.

bhavv · Jun 22, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Already tried DnD online.

Didnt like how the whole game is just one city with no explorable world, and it isnt worth the fee. Plus it couldnt be soloed, although finding groups was easy enough with a cleric, but I reached maximum level in under two weeks, and felt like I had already done everything in just that much time.

The DnD games lost their appeal to me from ruleset 3.0 onwards and with 3D graphics, they are totally different to what Baldurs Gate was and nowhere near as good.

And Oblivion, while the groundbreaking and total awe inspiring, jaw dropping and drool inducing game that it was, still felt totally inferior to Morrowind.

Now all hopes are on GW2 and Diablo 3, in the meanwhile a I have my second GW account to play through.

Games just seem to get worse with as the number after the title increases. I'll just hope that GW2 wont follow that trend.

*When I played DnD online, solo quests only went up to level 6. I will play it again if it goes free in europe though.

faraaz · Jun 22, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Now all hopes are on GW2 and Diablo 3, in the meanwhile a I have my second GW account to play through.

I know this is offtopic but if you are looking for a replacement to the RPG heights achieved by Baldurs Gate 2, GW2 and Diablo 3 are going to leave you sorely disappointed, frankly because of the sheer difference in subgenre.

Might I recommend Dragon Age? It is wholely developed by Bioware on their own proprietary IP because of how restrictive DnD became (which was a good move imo...3.5 onwards it just became messy) and it is scheduled to come out in a few months time. Frankly, it looks to be the best RPG ever since Baldurs Gate 2 and the gameplay is being modeled on that very same series even.

Now, to be ON topic, I don't believe people quit because they "couldn't" play with other players...because there is no lack of people who are willing to play with good players, be it via the means of a guild, alliance or a friendlist.

Gun Pierson · Jun 22, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

Might I recommend Dragon Age?

No Cooperative campaign mode sucks. Can't believe they take a step back on that part compared to Baldur's Gate. Other than that the game looks promising, but no coop mode is a breaking point for me.

Hanok Odbrook · Jun 22, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Here's a thought:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kousei

Honestly there are A LOT of builds that work extremely well outside of the "accepted meta". There just isn't enough people in GW's willing to let people play them anymore... Everyone's turned into build of the week freaks... If it's not on PvX, it's not acceptable anymore.

Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did...

Let's not forget that players have been claiming that PUGing has been dead long before Heroes came about. Have they helped the situation? In terms of forming human teams, no, of course not. However, they are not to blame for the situation as it stands today, no matter how people may want to think otherwise.

I remember the days when Necros and Mesmers where shunned like the plague. Rangers had a moment of hate too. Then came along Factions and oh, how the MMs rejoiced, but God forbid you decided to roll an Assassin and wanted to group anywhere on the mainland. Without Heroes, half my characters would still be stuck in the Crystal Desert.

Hanok Odbrook

Dzjudz · Jun 22, 2009, 11:07 AM // 11:07

There are always people oblivious to the overpowered builds 90% of the people are running (aka discordway atm). Yesterday somebody in town needed help with a quest and I decided to quickly rush him through with discord heroes. When I joined he had 1 hero and the rest henchmen. When I asked him to run discord he said "what is discord?". Then I asked a guildie to help with his discord heroes. The guy we were helping refused to kick his monk hero, because "I have -1 health and Ogden has a skill that makes me have +2 health".

angelsarc · Jun 22, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The reason I repeat myself is because there are a bunch of people who are responding to my posts without reading them or responding to my posts without understanding what I'm saying. In the case of Daesu, half of the stuff he says has already been answered by me in previous posts. And for an example of what I'm saying here:

Looks like we've found one of those people. Honestly if you don't know my answer to this yet, you haven't been reading my posts. It is as simple as that. Small hint: Some areas should be soloable and some shouldn't. I still claim that heroes ruined a lot about this game.

Yeah, ok. You're just trolling. When people quote your posts and respond, it's obvious they haven't read it. It's almost like when you quote posts and then post something barely related. If you actually had a point you wouldn't be repeating the same garbage over and over, or worse, referring people to your garbage without pointing to which garbage you think addresses their response (which it doesn't). You're not convincing anyone.

DreamWind · Jun 23, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

Yeah, ok. You're just trolling. When people quote your posts and respond, it's obvious they haven't read it.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

It's almost like when you quote posts and then post something barely related.

Examples of this? I think I've been more on topic than most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

If you actually had a point you wouldn't be repeating the same garbage over and over, or worse, referring people to your garbage without pointing to which garbage you think addresses their response.

If anybody posted a good question or point I wouldn't have to continually post the same answers or points. I agree that this thread is going nowhere interesting, but it certainly isn't my fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

You're not convincing anyone.

Probably not many. At least I did get some people to concede the PvP point though (probably because they don't play it enough to argue with me so they simply agree). Many of the readers of this forum are so set in their mindset and their way of playing that they have no idea how to understand or respond to the position I'm coming from. That isn't my problem. I am simply laying out how I believe the idea of this topic came about. I'm not the only one who thinks this way...I'm simply one of the few who bother to post about it.

Daesu · Jun 23, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I can't answer for DreamWind but I know how I think about this.

I would favor teaming up with humans more than playing solo.
And in some areas making playing without full human teams impossible.

You want to play with AI only? Sure, you can play about 80% of the game that way. But teaming with humans will net you about 2x as much loot compared to playing with AI.
And certain high-end areas are off-limit. See it as a relay race (think that's the word, the running sport where you hand over sticks).
You might be the best individual runner in the world, the moment you can't perform as member of a team it means nothing in certain situations.

And if you don't want to team up with others? Well, that just means you can't do certain things.

But you paid for the content?
Yes, sure. You also paid for the content of HA, but without teaming up with other human players you won't see much of it. Oh, and without nice PvP players seeking profit you can't even get a crystalline without playing HA.
So people are restricted in content already.... And people playing HA even get rewarded with some emote thing representing an animal depeding on rank. Also something PvE players have no acces to. But you paid for it, A-net should open /dragon for everyone!

I don't see why there can't be content in PvE that is resticted to full-human teams. As long as there is plenty of stuff to do solo this isn't too bad. And if you really, really, really want to play an area that requires a full-human team you just have to play with other humans. It's a choice, you play with humans or you don't play the area.

Many people dont realize that when they reach the later parts of this game (maybe they are still new), that it is very difficult if not impossible to H/H in HM elite areas. Many of these elite areas are farmed by human teams one way or another much more efficiently than H/H, if it is even possible to bring henchies. Even if it is possible to H/H through it, the loot would not be as good because a human team can accomplish the same area in HM with even fewer players or they can accomplish them faster, giving more loot in the same amount of time due to faster runs.

This game is purposefully designed to give human teams a huge advantage over H/H teams. Just that in easy content, you dont need a full human team and you can probably complete it faster with H/H than sitting in town to LFG. The HM elite areas where the BEST loot are in, is when a human team is needed. Only newbie players do not know this because they are not experienced in these elite areas, and are also not experienced with the limitations of the hero AI when playing in said elite areas in HM.

I see people arguing how overpowered heroes are and how we shouldn't be using unfair PvE skills and so on, just proved to me that they haven't been down to HM UW/FoW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep/Slavers much with a successful human team before. And they also do not understand the limitations of heroes in those areas either. If you want to party up with real humans you should do hardcore PvE more often, and not stick to the carebear levels, basing your views around the carebear levels only.

DreamWind · Jun 23, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Many people dont realize that when they reach the later parts of this game (maybe they are still new), that it is very difficult if not impossible to H/H in HM elite areas.

This game is purposefully designed to give human teams a huge advantage over H/H teams.

And they also do not understand the limitations of heroes in those areas either. If you want to party up with real humans you should do hardcore PvE more often, and not stick to the carebear levels, basing your views around the carebear levels only.

Didn't you see my earlier point about how badly the game is designed in this area? The areas that are able to be done with H/H are easier and have better rewards than areas that require human parties. For example, nobody does DoA because FoW can be herowayed and has better rewards. That is bad game design on many levels and it promotes a singleplayer game. The fact that human teams have inbalanced options that heroes don't have is irrelevent. The inbalanced options shouldn't exist.

Cacheelma · Jun 23, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The HM elite areas where the BEST loot are in, is when a human team is needed. Only newbie players do not know this because they are not experienced in these elite areas, and are also not experienced with the limitations of the hero AI when playing in said elite areas in HM.

Did I just hear BEST LOOTS? You're telling me loots in HM Elite areas are better than my beautifully skinned collector stuff?

I say bollocks.

DreamWind got my points for realizing that while loots in FoW/UW aren't necessary better, the ecto+shard for the FoW armors (or should I say, the trade currency?) is enough reason why people would run it instead. H/H-way-able or not.

Besides, why bother going through the trouble of LFG-ing, making (copying) good builds, communicating with people, when you might not GET ANYTHING OUT OF IT? Just farm the hell out of the most profittable farm spot and buy the stuff you want. End of story.

What? Oh it's fun to play with human? God forbids people having fun in solo/H-H farming, right?

zwei2stein · Jun 23, 2009, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Didn't you see my earlier point about how badly the game is designed in this area? The areas that are able to be done with H/H are easier and have better rewards than areas that require human parties. For example, nobody does DoA because FoW can be herowayed and has better rewards. That is bad game design on many levels and it promotes a singleplayer game. The fact that human teams have inbalanced options that heroes don't have is irrelevent. The inbalanced options shouldn't exist.

And is FoW actually being being herowayed? No. FoW is being speedcleared like everything else if people actually care about rewards, they want them fast and will, indeed, play with other humans, especially when it increases run speed several times.

DoA is dead because:

* Rewards suck. Yes, I agree on that.

DoA rewards are basically just different weapons with not really that impressive skins (some, like tormented axe and swords, being fugly) and thats it. If you like to waste gems you also get lottery tickets that reward you consumable and minipet. Thats it really. No rare skins (they got destroyed by easy chestruns), No greens (like every green, too common after a while)

But that means that:

* Every minute played at DoA is minute wasted.

If you play doa, you are not getting stuff vanquished, missions completed, zoin quests done, current rare-weapons-of-the-month farmed, nicolas stuff farmed ....

You might want to play it for fun, but:

* It came out too 'elite' to even allow small progression.

It has never had "casual" gameplay mode on start. It was Death On Arrival and even if it was thoroughly nerfed, people only dare to do it with specialized teambuilds.

There is no hope that such area will be ever pugged for fun.

And if people actually had reasons to do DoA, they:

* Been there, done that.

Anyone who wanted to do DoA for its rewards did it when ursan was at rage. They got statues and they got their tormenteds. There is nothing more, so people do not return.

---

Heroes did not really make difference in here. Design flaws at DoA are much deeper than 'people rather play with h/h than humans'

The fact that other elite areas can be H/H ed is not issue, because they are also being speed cleared.

You just don't add heroes and start merrily stomping UW/FoW, you join speed clear group that can do it in fraction of time it takes you to H/H

the_jos · Jun 23, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Many people dont realize that when they reach the later parts of this game (maybe they are still new), that it is very difficult if not impossible to H/H in HM elite areas. Many of these elite areas are farmed by human teams one way or another much more efficiently than H/H, if it is even possible to bring henchies. Even if it is possible to H/H through it, the loot would not be as good because a human team can accomplish the same area in HM with even fewer players or they can accomplish them faster, giving more loot in the same amount of time due to faster runs.

Let's see. I'm a new player to the game and created a ... Dervish.
I get to this nice elite areas only to find out that my profession is not wanted in the teams forming there. So I create let's say an ele. Now I can join teams but I lack the elite and some other skills I need. So I need to play more to get those. And my Norn rank (to name one) isn't high enough to be efficient.
For established players with most skills unlocked this does not apply but the initial investment needed to play a specific area is substantial.
And you are looking from a farming perspective, which is quite different than the perspective of a regular player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This game is purposefully designed to give human teams a huge advantage over H/H teams. Just that in easy content, you dont need a full human team and you can probably complete it faster with H/H than sitting in town to LFG. The HM elite areas where the BEST loot are in, is when a human team is needed. Only newbie players do not know this because they are not experienced in these elite areas, and are also not experienced with the limitations of the hero AI when playing in said elite areas in HM.

That's when looking from a farming prespective again.

It's very possible to do most of the the elite areas with several spots filled in by heroes. It's not as fast as a speed clear but it works.
Deep with 4 humans and 8 heroes (not sure if we did 3/9). Urgoz's with 3 humans and 9 heroes (even an all casters team). UW /FoW/Slavers with 2 humans and 6 heroes. All done HM. Without consumables except some DP removers. A guildie cleared FoW with 3 heroes for fun (and to see if it was possible).
We played DoA NM with 3/5 or 4/4, can't remember. DoA HM is the only option we never tried.
You don't need humans, they only make things more efficient. But you can do without them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I see people arguing how overpowered heroes are and how we shouldn't be using unfair PvE skills and so on, just proved to me that they haven't been down to HM UW/FoW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep/Slavers much with a successful human team before. And they also do not understand the limitations of heroes in those areas either. If you want to party up with real humans you should do hardcore PvE more often, and not stick to the carebear levels, basing your views around the carebear levels only.

What I think is that you mean speed clears and such by 'hardcore PvE'.
It doesn't mean shit to me. My guild finished stuff by playing balanced whereever possible (only exception we didn't finish this way was DoA HM) which requires far more skill and experience than abusing some skills. Far too many people involved in SC and other farming teams are not able to play decent. I received this complaint from several guildies when I was with two of the more noticable HM alliances of their time. This was not about their farming skills, they were good at that. But anything else HM (missions/vanq/balanced elite areas) was just bad (not all alliance guilds were a problem though).
I'm still in contact with one of the leading people in a known HM guild and was asked several times to join them (with a small number of players) or apply with my guild for the alliance they are in. I declined, the status of the guild isn't too good atm because I was inactive for a couple of months bc of shoulder problems. And changing faction will put a huge pressure on the guild (been there, done that).
They don't ask me this because I'm such a nice player and my guildies are also nice. Nope, we also know what we are doing and get things done even without abusing PvE skills and consumables. Hard Mode ofc. Using farming builds will only make us more efficient.

You seriously expect me to team up with players who only know some meta builds and discriminate based on profession and skill?
People who ain't there for the social stuff but because they need other humans to be most efficient? If they could achieve the same efficiency with H/H or 2 human/6 hero teams they would use those. Because each additional player is a liability. And it might take longer to form teams with more humans.

Skilled organised full human teams (friends, guild, alliance) have always had advantage over H&H teams, specially with huge numbers of players online or scheduling events. Put them on vent for even more efficiency.
The success/fail rate (total time to finish an area) of random teams is far worse and might even get near the rate of a good team using some heroes.
Specially when we throw in some consumables and abuse the things heroes are good at.

Mmmm, maybe I should change my point on having no heroes in of 20% of the content. Considering I might be forced to team up with people who are at carebear level...... It might drop my efficiency.

DreamWind · Jun 23, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And is FoW actually being being herowayed? No. FoW is being speedcleared like everything else if people actually care about rewards, they want them fast and will, indeed, play with other humans, especially when it increases run speed several times.

Let me rephrase. The fact that an elite area with superior rewards is H/Hable is a problem. The fact that it is being speedcleared by inbalanced options is a joke beyond the scope of this thread.

zwei2stein · Jun 23, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Let me rephrase. The fact that an elite area with superior rewards is H/Hable is a problem. The fact that it is being speedcleared by inbalanced options is a joke beyond the scope of this thread.

Okay, let me Rephrase too:

Elite area being completable with H/Hs is not an issue if humans are faster and better.

And, by default, humans are faster & better. Even without PvE imba.

FoW is *entry level* elite area. It is designed to be more forgiving and less challenging than UW as it originally was just step up from last mission. I see no problem if players can H/H it. If they DO H/H it for rewards, they are wasting their time, so, 'whatever'.

The fact that people shun DoA is not because they can H/H FoW (thats *ridiculous* idea). It's fault of DoA. (Which is, by the way, H/H able too)

DoA is not fun place to mess in. Or to rampage through. DoA is ugly place. Thats how simple it can be.

Give me 7 man hero party (it can perfectly rule NM doa) and I would not play in DoA. Give me 7 man human party that can do 10 minute doa HM run and asks me to have honor of AFKing it, and I still would not go there even with all rewards on silver platter (ok, i would be greedy enough to AFK it, but you get the idea ...)

FoW on the other hand is fun place to mess in. Mobs that are at least a bit interesting to fight. There is even actual interesting lore. It has as nice visuals as dust'n'fire gray area can have.

DoA is dead for reason. Its not H/H.

DreamWind · Jun 23, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Elite area being completable with H/Hs is not an issue if humans are faster and better.

It is a problem. Elite areas with elite rewards should not be completeable alone in a team based game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And, by default, humans are faster & better. Even without PvE imba.

I agree they can be....I question why so many people in this thread is complaining about playing with humans then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

FoW is *entry level* elite area. It is designed to be more forgiving and less challenging than UW as it originally was just step up from last mission. I see no problem if players can H/H it.

Entry level? You could have fooled me. It has some of the best rewards in the game (by a sheer time/money ratio). It also has the elite armor skin in the game. In Prophecies it was THE elite area. Has the addition of more areas somehow caused FoW to be entry level? Or maybe something else...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

DoA is dead for reason. Its not H/H.

LoL...you think DoA is dead because its ugly and FoW is pretty? Come on now. DoA is dead because the effort to reward ratio is not worth is compared to most other areas. That and its too hard for the average player. DoA has no place in a game that has sadly become all about farming.