Curse

BoondockSaint · Jun 15, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This. I'd much rather be running around with the AI who won't go AFK, run questionable bars, or quit halfway through. Then heroes were introduced allowing me to explore the build possibilities of every profession on one character.

To anyone who thinks heroes and henchmen are a bad thing in Guild Wars I suggest you try another game where large full human groups are required to enjoy the endgame. Then you will truly appreciate the luxury of having AI controlled players.

/agree

Heros was most likly the best thing to happen to GW, I may have stopped playing if they had not been introduced. I know there is a lot of hate about them in pvp but here is my personal opinion. Back when nightfall came out my guildies and I could never get a full team together for HA because of our rank,(no this is not a critic of rank) so we ended up using heros. Because of this we were all able to get to r3 and gradually start getting more peopel to play with us. Esentually, we did not want to play with heros but used them when there was no other option.

Mordakai · Jun 15, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

If Heroes killed PUGS, why then is everyone standing around the latest Zaisen Mission spamming "LFG HM"? (Myself included).

Heroes are great, because when you need to fill a PUG or can't find anyone, they are better than nothing.

But in PvE, a Player with PvE only skills is a better alternative.

And anyway, nothing "killed" Guild Wars, it's still up last time I checked.

Empress Amarox · Jun 15, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Pretty sure it was all of the crappy mismanagement that killed Guild Wars, not heroes (though, they arguably may have been part of that).

pamelf · Jun 15, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

The only thing about heroes that killed GW for me is Anets refusal to let us add 7 of them. I haven't played for months for that very reason. I just want to make my own bloody team.

the_jos · Jun 15, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Heroes didn't kill GW at all.

GW isn't in the shape it was a couple of years ago, but this does not mean it died.
It's just getting older. And heroes are actually keeping it somewhat young.
If you want to blame someone, blame A-net for lack of teaming options (empty outposts, though the Z-quests seems to have solved this somewhat).

But don't forget that it's an aging game, I've known most of the people I play with for several years and so do many others. Many play with friends and guild only. Or people they know they can trust. There still are random teams, but not that many as there used to be.
In the past it was not uncommon to wait for 15-20 mins for players. Nowadays? Load heroes and go. Is it good or is it bad that people don't have to spend half their evening waiting for random players?

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

The only way GW is objectively hurt by heroes are those missions/quests where you are required to take specific hero and are NOT allowed to ditch him in favor of human.

Longasc · Jun 15, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

The problem is that -customizeable- henchmen aka heroes are so much better than human players.

Henchmen got improved over time, still they did not allow for things like Sabway, a dedicated bonder (I have run DTSC with a hero smiter e.g., it works). Add in other ideas they had, and the game gets too damn easy. Or just at least having a Ranger NPC able to daze Kuunavang, which is very useful for Unwaking waters.

This has of course a bright side. I also love heroes! They are curse and blessing at the same time.

I wonder how much easier Prophecies without Factions/NF and all the other things added would have been with Heroes. The amount of control over their builds and flagging, all that, make them so much more powerful than henchmen.

Still, new players do so much better with heroes. They have no human player coming to their help, in the deserted early game outposts. It really seems to be hard to get into Guild Wars nowadays. We as veteran GW players might not see it, but I know a lot of people who start, play all alone, fail, get frustrated or simply wonder what is fun about the game.

- Still, grouping was already on the decline in Factions, without Heroes being around at all.

I think the true problem is hidden somewhere in this.
In WoW, I was glad to have found ANY idiot to fill up a dungeon group at times. In GW, people eye strangers like they are terrorists and assume the worst.

How did it come so far, IMO this is the real question.
I say, heroes are infinitely better than a huge percentage of the players you could group with, and you have full control over group composition and build.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 15, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

i beleive that heros and henchies are far superior to most human teams. why? mainly cause when you ping for a spike, you don;t have 15 other people thinking they can try and target somethign else.

as well as this, you don;t get people in the group running off and aggro-ing other areas and you can stop and take a break half way thru a mission without anyone leaving etc etc.

as well as this, i find that the henchies are nearly always perfect for the area you are in (ie. they generally give the hencies the right skills for the area you are about to do).

without exploiting things such as Sabway and Discordway and any other bullshite way, i am able to play areas much faster and safer than with normal groups. maybe i just have my own builds that work well for me, and most areas can be done H/H.

my fav combination as an ele is;

Me (SH Fallback E/P)
Koss (Dev Hammer)
Ogden (SOJ Boon Smite)
Olias (AotL MM)

Herta (Earth Ele)
Devona (Hammer Warr) or Fire Ele Hench
Motivation Hero (Para hench)
Healer Hench

Watch things go Boom.

Maybe heros have killed the game for some people, but really, it is just a lot easier to do the game sometimes with heros / hench. i just wish DOA / UW / FOW would introduce some henchies so i can find someone (AI) to do DOA with me.

Jarus · Jun 15, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Before there were heroes, my wife and I (with whom I play with almost exclusively) completed the campaigns with just henchmen. When heroes came along they were a godsend. This was especially true for me, because I for one actually enjoy playing around with different builds. In a way, heroes gave me opportunity to focus on just one main character to play with.

Having said that, I do not believe that heroes are in any way more competent than human players. True, they tend to interrupt things faster, but they're liable to do stupid things. A human player would know to move out of the way of a Meteor Storm, or take that one extra step to be in someone's Ward. And let's not forget PVE skills. A group of 8 people with Discord or Cry of Pain or even YMLaD is potent, to say the least.

I love having heroes around, but would say their presence is not killing GW. I would love for them to remove the 3-per-person limit in PVE.

I do not think their presence is exactly appropriate for PVP, though. I would put a cap of 2 heroes per team at least, if only to ensure that missing player slots get filled.

Daesu · Jun 15, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

i beleive that heros and henchies are far superior to most human teams. why? mainly cause when you ping for a spike, you don;t have 15 other people thinking they can try and target somethign else.

But what you said is not a superiority of heroes but rather, the STUPIDITY of your specific team right? I am sure many good pvp teams would be able to spike right. This proves that a human team can do it.

Just because you have some bad apples in your team, that particular day, doesn't imply that heroes are overpowered. Heroes are just more consistent in terms of ability and disability. For example, I can also say heroes are consistantly stupid about kiting from AoE attacks and always bunching together. While I had a good PUG on that one particular day so heroes become not overpowered anymore.

Whatever the case, at their best potential humans with their 24 PvE skills in an eight man team, always has the upper hand to be alot more powerful than heroes. Choose the best human team against the best hero team and the human team would always come up on top. If you dont believe me, try to beat the best human team timing for UWSC with just 2 humans and 6 heroes. See if you are a match.

Or try completing HM elite areas like DoA with heroes then try it with a human team that knows how to clear the area and see the difference.

gremlin · Jun 15, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Playing pve was a dream with a good party, usually from my guild and alliance members.
Occasionally there would be a great or at least fairly good pug, and that's one of the main problems with the game.

The pvp part lends itself to the guild system ie grab your team choose an area and play.
PVE on the other hand has everyone at different stages in the game all needing other players but often unable to join together on one mission.

Pugs started to deteriorate imo when builds became standardised, the rule that you must have build x to do this mission with us became the norm.
Players became defensive when asked to ping their build in case they were laughed at.
PVE is mostly easy and can be done with henchmen with their "awful ai and build" so why humiliate players and go on about their awful build when it doesn't matter.

If players stopped being so demanding and had a little give and take the community would be far better and playing with strangers a more pleasant alternative to heroes.

Agree with the idea of limiting hero numbers so some cooperation between people is required.
Or you could just appeal to their natural greed and make the mission drop rewards far far higher when the party is all human.

Scary · Jun 15, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Oh boy, here comes some rage...

In PvE: They lessened the ability and need to group to successfully complete objectives.

In PvP: Their godly reaction time as interrupters trumps even the best human players on the best ping imaginable.

I enjoy heroes myself, but I understand why some people don't.

On the PvP part... PvP should be human only.. There is no way that AI. make
PvP a fun and honorable match.

PvE... wel I love the option to ad hero's.. as explained before.. I still group up.
but only with alliance members, and occasionally with others, for example with a zaishen quest. And that gives me a lot of fun.
But mostly I just wander around doing quests and exploring with hero's and AI.
And that my friends, is very relaxing make your own funny builds and just
go out.
They should only give us te option to ad 7 hero's in PvE

Daesu · Jun 15, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Agree with the idea of limiting hero numbers so some cooperation between people is required.
Or you could just appeal to their natural greed and make the mission drop rewards far far higher when the party is all human.

Because a human team is already superior to a hero team, BY DESIGN (i.e. 24 PvE skills and ability to work independently at real time time), this is not a good idea.

I find the biggest problem with human teams is the personality of the players. For example, quitting in the middle of missions, going afk in the middle of missions, bitching and not following instructions or everyone wants to be the leader attitude.

This is why heroes "appear to be better" even though they are designed to be inferior to humans from the start. The right thing to do is to educate and improve the other humans, not nerf heroes and bring the game down to the worst level for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Oh boy, here comes some rage...

In PvE: They lessened the ability and need to group to successfully complete objectives.

In PvP: Their godly reaction time as interrupters trumps even the best human players on the best ping imaginable.

I enjoy heroes myself, but I understand why some people don't.

How about their inability to check for line of sight and keep shooting at the wall if you are behind it? Also how about their inability to respond well to AoE attacks and just run around the AoE like headless chickens till they drop?

If you are smart, you should be able to exploit your opponent's weaknesses during PvP. Heroes are easy to beat if you know how.

EPO Bot · Jun 15, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Heroes didn't ruin anything at all. They just allow you to play at any time. A good player team will always be better if you have the luxury to find one. But everyone knows that by the time Nightfall came out, the playerbase had become to scattered to relyably find a team.

superraptors · Jun 15, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

i think u left out 'battles' in the title
________
FREE JOOMLA THEMES

Capulatio · Jun 15, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

I have to admit even though I only have 5 titles, I have H/H them all and I only started doing this a couple of weeks ago. I remember when the game first came out everyone was playing together, it just doesn't happen now. I am not sure whether that is from Heroes though :/

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I find the biggest problem with human teams is the personality of the players. For example, quitting in the middle of missions, going afk in the middle of missions, bitching and not following instructions or everyone wants to be the leader attitude.

Indeed. Take, for example, this thing that happened when Unwaking Waters were zquest:

So, I loaded up my Rt, added MM and curses hero and stunning strike para hero and henchies, clicked HM and entered.

Other side was human party. They immediately resigned when they saw me. No big deal, they probly hoped to synch with someone.

So I left too and reentered. Met with same team and "omg, noob again", /resign again.

Third time they were quite shocked as was I and complained about noobs some more.

Now, fourth time, I was lucky to get paired with some random assassin player running H/H and made it till end in quite nice (5 min) time.

Unwaking HM is criminally easy. Why would anyone waste time looking for perfect team from other side? Why be so damn squeamish?

Shadow of Light · Jun 15, 2009, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Heroes didn't kill Guild Wars. Really, it would have been nice if we'd had them from the start--or at least the ability to tell 'henchmen' when to hang back or not attack etc. Ultimately, I like Heroes. They beat waiting around for actual people in the more lifeless outposts, and sometimes people just don't feel like playing with other people.

The major problem was how they were introduced into Nightfall. Not only were you forced to include some of them in your party for any number of missions (the number of time I saw PUGs obliged to kick out an ACTUAL PERSON because they forgot they had to make room for a HERO was just stupid), but you also had to invest time in levelling them up so you didn't have, say, a level 5 Tahlkora in a bloody level 20 mission.

What they should have done was just have the Heroes level-scale with the PCs, but I guess grind was the order of the day. :/ At least Koss isn't level 2 when you bring your level 20 character over to Nightfall these days, I guess... but he's still not level 20.

EPO Bot · Jun 15, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Is it true there was a time without henchies once? Now that sounds unplayable.

I think it's a good thing they make pve soloable for GW2.

gremlin · Jun 15, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Because a human team is already superior to a hero team, BY DESIGN (i.e. 24 PvE skills and ability to work independently at real time time), this is not a good idea.

I find the biggest problem with human teams is the personality of the players. For example, quitting in the middle of missions, going afk in the middle of missions, bitching and not following instructions or everyone wants to be the leader attitude.

This is why heroes "appear to be better" even though they are designed to be inferior to humans from the start. The right thing to do is to educate and improve the other humans, not nerf heroes and bring the game down to the worst level for everyone.

How about their inability to check for line of sight and keep shooting at the wall if you are behind it? Also how about their inability to respond well to AoE attacks and just run around the AoE like headless chickens till they drop?

If you are smart, you should be able to exploit your opponent's weaknesses during PvP. Heroes are easy to beat if you know how.

I agree a human party is far superior to an ai party and always will be.
They also lead to a richer gaming experience as every mssion is different due to varied builds and tactics.
Educating the players is an almost impossible task you need something basic to the game that encourages players to team up.

Making the drops better is as simple as it gets, for example if every party of humans knew that there was a 5% chance of one gold item dropping on a mission as against a 0.1 % chance if even one hero or henchman was involved they would do it.

I am not advocating those values just saying that monetary or other encouragement is a simple way of encouraging team play.

Make team play harder, to allow for the more powerful human party and increase the reward.
Keep the human/ai mixed party difficulty and reward % same as now.