Curse

JR · Jul 28, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Earlier today someone linked me to a Lord of the Rings Online developer blog. It got me thinking about how ArenaNet communicates with the community, outside of the usual channels.

There's the wiki, but that feels like an archaic and cack-handed approach in comparison to the alternatives used by other studios. I'm quite fammilar with wiki pages and how they work, yet ArenaNet's implementation doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. It would seem far more user friendly to utilize a blog format, regular dev chats, or have developers simply posting on the forums. Wiki pages simply aren't designed to be good for communication; they are designed to be collaborative encyclopedias.

Perhaps I haven't spent enough time with the wiki to understand it's benefits, but that alone seems like an issue: If the benefits arent' immediately transparent to an average user what is going to prompt them to use it?

I'm interested in hearing what the other members here have to say in favor or against the use of a wiki format, and views alternative solutions.

Snograt · Jul 28, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I like the wiki, JR - although I often wonder if ANet still thinks that giving it to the fans to run was such a good idea. I always chuckle when I see something like "I'm sorry, Regina, but your signature image is inadmissable due to copyright limitations."

Regina and Linsey (and others) do have "what we are doing" quasi-blogs in place, yet I suspect that the dev team don't have as much time to dedicate to wiki activities as they would like.

slowerpoke · Jul 28, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I think there are two issues raised here, how (and where) to handle player/developer interaction and a centralized information area.

A blog would be a good place to centralize all of the various news items related to guild wars from the developers. Such as the journals posted by Regina & Lindsey which are scattered among the thousands of wiki pages and hard to keep track of, which aren't suited for gw.com but would work on a blog.

Other examples of what they should be doing, look at BioWare and Bethesdas efforts.

I think the wiki is good for what its designed for, to present information in an encyclopedic format, in the case of guild wars to document the game.

Its not meant to be a discussion medium, and doesn't have the features to support it like a proper forum.

I agree the communication between ANet and the playerbase should be handled elsewhere, i think an official forum would be best for that.

Sun Fired Blank · Jul 28, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Maybe if you stuck this on the front page in bright farking red text. An easy to use response form and highlighted staff responses would be nice also, rather then having to wade through a megabyte of identical text (read: shit).

Whoever thought Wiki should be the contact portal should be drawn and quartered for promoting it. Stupidity of the highest level.

The wiki's design is a deliberate obstacle; the obvious rationale is that only more smarter and more informed people would find and use the talk pages. Reality check: there are plenty of smart and informed people that just don't care to use such a ridiculously obtuse system, and the users that have discovered and post on talk pages can be just as dumb and uninformed as most people.

Nevermind that every question has already been asked but you ARCHIVE THE FARKING THINGS SO DEEP THAT NO ONE KNOWS IT'S BEEN ASKED UNLESS THEY READ THE WIKI EVERY DAY.

Jesus Christ, I'd rather draw a goddamn Rembrandt with pink crayon shards than use the Wiki.

Hyru Jin · Jul 28, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

ArenaNet on Twitter!

I don't know but a quick update on the question: what are you doing? would be very nice. I think the Wiki isn't the best solution to communicate, and not many players know the pages where communication happens.

By the way, DevUpdates are too rare, I think they should publish DevUpdates not only after a game update, but on a regular basis, with even updates on their work on Guild Wars 2.

Bob Slydell · Jul 28, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Maybe if you stuck this on the front page in bright farking red text. An easy to use response form and highlighted staff responses would be nice also, rather then having to wade through a megabyte of identical text (read: shit).

Whoever thought Wiki should be the contact portal should be drawn and quartered for promoting it. Stupidity of the highest level.

The wiki's design is a deliberate obstacle; the obvious rationale is that only more smarter and more informed people would find and use the talk pages. Reality check: there are plenty of smart and informed people that just don't care to use such a ridiculously obtuse system, and the users that have discovered and post on talk pages can be just as dumb and uninformed as most people.

Nevermind that every question has already been asked but you ARCHIVE THE FARKING THINGS SO DEEP THAT NO ONE KNOWS IT'S BEEN ASKED UNLESS THEY READ THE WIKI EVERY DAY.

Jesus Christ, I'd rather draw a goddamn Rembrandt with pink crayon shards than use the Wiki.

I've suggested decent bug fixes that would help many people there, quite a few during the off times sometime back when it didn't seem like anet had a whole lot to do. Within a week my actual constructive posts alerting anet of bugs with the game, got pushed into an archive by a huge a flood of "PLZ MAKE X ITEM EASIER TO GET" "PLZ ADD NEW TITLE" "DYE STORAGE PLZ"

Karate Jesus · Jul 28, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Actually, I think the wiki is adding some kind of feedback forum so that we can hear back from developers. It's not done yet, but here are some links.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:Main

Discussion about the process.

Tbh, I think it'll probably be a huge failure, considering that our surprisingly understaffed Live Team (if you can call 1 person a team), doesn't have time to even answer their Wiki talk page. Seriously, Linsey's is backed up to May because she hasn't answered in THAT long.

The feedback page will be nice for wiki users, such as myself, to bitch on.....but I highly doubt that the devs will take the time to look at it. Ignoring us has become a full time job for most of them.

Dawgboy · Jul 28, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I think Regina'd reach more people by opening a window by her cubicle and screaming at the street.

I don't even know why they have a CR person if they won't relate with customers. Everyone knows they're a secretive bunch, so why not can her and hire another dev? It's not like we'll get any less info, and they can get their new game out a little quicker.

Karate Jesus · Jul 28, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgboy

I think Regina'd reach more people by opening a window by her cubicle and screaming at the street.

I don't even know why they have a CR person if they won't relate with customers. Everyone knows they're a secretive bunch, so why not can her and hire another dev? It's not like we'll get any less info, and they can get their new game out a little quicker.

They have more than one CR, and this thread is about feedback from the Devs not the CR/PR Teams. We all know that they haven't done a great job lately, but there are other threads to bitch about that.

Martin Firestorm · Jul 28, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I love the wiki--its ideal for what it is, which is not communications between the devs and players. That should be handled through the official site imo--not a full fledged forum, more of a blog set up would be ideal.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 28, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Maybe if you stuck this on the front page in bright farking red text. An easy to use response form and highlighted staff responses would be nice also, rather then having to wade through a megabyte of identical text (read: shit).

Whoever thought Wiki should be the contact portal should be drawn and quartered for promoting it. Stupidity of the highest level.

The wiki's design is a deliberate obstacle; the obvious rationale is that only more smarter and more informed people would find and use the talk pages. Reality check: there are plenty of smart and informed people that just don't care to use such a ridiculously obtuse system, and the users that have discovered and post on talk pages can be just as dumb and uninformed as most people.

Nevermind that every question has already been asked but you ARCHIVE THE FARKING THINGS SO DEEP THAT NO ONE KNOWS IT'S BEEN ASKED UNLESS THEY READ THE WIKI EVERY DAY.

Jesus Christ, I'd rather draw a goddamn Rembrandt with pink crayon shards than use the Wiki.

My thoughts and feelings also regarding the wiki page, it's dreadful trying to sift through small text. Layout makes my eye balls red. Trying to find important related context among the users and the developers on there is pitiful.
I just don't like it! and it's why I've only visited the thing like 3 times...

Dakka Dakka · Jul 28, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyru Jin

ArenaNet on Twitter!

I don't know but a quick update on the question: what are you doing? would be very nice. I think the Wiki isn't the best solution to communicate, and not many players know the pages where communication happens.

By the way, DevUpdates are too rare, I think they should publish DevUpdates not only after a game update, but on a regular basis, with even updates on their work on Guild Wars 2.

I second that opinion, there is a GW2 page on Twitter but it isn't used. I contacted Regina with pretty much the same suggestions and was told that they are aware of the options but have there own plan on how to release information

Ravious · Jul 28, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Orion's blog is fantastic, and I RSS'd it from day 1. But, like ANet dev's journals it is unofficial. The wiki does feel a tad archaic, but also kind of cool. Most devs are fairly responsive. I think this discussion is a little iffy because bringing in dev "posts" on the wiki and crossing it with "official" dev updates muddies the water too much IMHO.

Grunntar · Jul 28, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

A wiki is a bad way to handle two-way communication! That's plain, simple, and I think that most people (including Anet staff) would agree.

A discussion forum is perfect, however. And a blog is excellent at communicating one way, and gathering feedback (though comments) the other way.

The missing element, however, which renders this poll useless is that Anet doesn't want two-way communication. They just want to post information. And a web site, like a wiki, is ideal for that purpose!

The desire for two-way communication is from the player base. They want to contribute, respond, interject, and argue. Anet staff doesn't have time for that! No matter how much the player base wants to change that, it's just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I have worked in a corporate environment, and tried "forcing" people to use a blog. (Engineers in my case. Technical types. Somewhat like developers in many ways...) If they don't want to use it because of fear, anxiety, trepidation, or because they just don't have enough to say, it is doomed to failure. And due to the nature of the potential reader pool, and their hyper-criticality of everything, I don't blame them one bit for not wanting to stick their heads in that blast furnace!

The only possible way I can see Anet creating a blog in the future is to tie it to the release of GW2. Upon release of the game, they will have plenty to say, which removes one barrier. And it can be tied to the marketing effort and the general success of the launch, which justifies the cost and resources. And there will be much less venom and bile from the player base, reducing another barrier. So I could see it happening... But I don't expect it. The cost/benefit ratio is just too high...

Lord Sojar · Jul 28, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

They have a Facebook page and Twitter... though both mediums are essentially for bottom feeders... but whatever.

They need a developer updates page on their website... or gasp... their own forums!

Fril Estelin · Jul 28, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunntar

The missing element, however, which renders this poll useless is that Anet doesn't want two-way communication. They just want to post information. And a web site, like a wiki, is ideal for that purpose!

I don't like the wiki, but this is BS. They've put a lot of efforts in setting up a "feedback" and "bugs" structure, however imperfect it's there.

You can still dislike the wiki, and in particular point at its major flaws regarding communication (which could be an advantage if you actually want to limit the amount of communication that you get...), while still appreciating the work done by a lot of volunteers and the existing interactions (see Joe Kimmes' talkpage for example).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

They need a developer updates page on their website... or gasp... their own forums!

They should set up a blog that lists all the recent twitter entries which point at the facebook posts which describe the wiki updates, and then put an RSS of it on the website, which could have its own facebook-twitter-wiki panel on one side for easy editing by users. And if technically possible, have it accessible from the game, with facebook-twitter-wiki crossposting.

Or just buy an online communication strategy!

Lord Sojar · Jul 28, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They should set up a blog that lists all the recent twitter entries which point at the facebook posts which describe the wiki updates, and then put an RSS of it on the website, which could have its own facebook-twitter-wiki panel on one side for easy editing by users. And if technically possible, have it accessible from the game, with facebook-twitter-wiki crossposting.

Or just buy an online communication strategy!

Is this before or after Izzy comes back and Smiter's Boons all the skills, the sun goes supernova (if you actually try to prove the sun can't go supernova, I keel j00), whales grow legs and start eating people, ANET puts out a content update that people actually care about, and then Izzy actually balances the game?

Pretty sure the crossscripting would asplode the servers... but that sounds like something ANET would do!

Feminist Terrorist · Jul 28, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I'm often a busy person, and simply don't have time to go hunting down obscure information which may or may not exist. If the developers and/or CR/PR people can't bother posting all their stuff in ONE central, easy-to-get-to place, I can't be bothered caring what they have to say.

Yes, I know no one cares about my opinion, but it's easier to type drivel on a forum than to get up and be a productive member of society at the moment.

nkuvu · Jul 28, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Maybe if you stuck this on the front page in bright farking red text. An easy to use response form and highlighted staff responses would be nice also, rather then having to wade through a megabyte of identical text (read: shit).

Whoever thought Wiki should be the contact portal should be drawn and quartered for promoting it. Stupidity of the highest level.

The wiki's design is a deliberate obstacle; the obvious rationale is that only more smarter and more informed people would find and use the talk pages. Reality check: there are plenty of smart and informed people that just don't care to use such a ridiculously obtuse system, and the users that have discovered and post on talk pages can be just as dumb and uninformed as most people.

Nevermind that every question has already been asked but you ARCHIVE THE FARKING THINGS SO DEEP THAT NO ONE KNOWS IT'S BEEN ASKED UNLESS THEY READ THE WIKI EVERY DAY.

Jesus Christ, I'd rather draw a goddamn Rembrandt with pink crayon shards than use the Wiki.

See what I did here? I quoted an earlier post, because I want to respond to it. Doing this on the wiki is cumbersome at best. The wiki's not user friendly -- I've seen tons of people post on the wiki and not know how to indent. Posting should not require help text.

To address the quoted post... I can't agree more. The wiki is an abysmal form of contact. Order of responses based on where the person types, no automatic time stamps, no way to find out what's new on a page without sorting through history diffs... horrible.

The wiki is a great place for information. But for actual discussion, a forum format is much more clear and simple.

Gun Pierson · Jul 28, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I voted wiki is a poor solution which it is imo. However there's another problem, Anet wants the devs to post in their free time and not during working hours. Regina or Linsey explained that in the past, can't remember who exactly.

So we have devs working late and in weekends etc. on for example 'the April update' and they have to post after working hours. Anet is on its way to create some burned out devs if management doesn't do something.