Curse

Amy Awien · Sep 16, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no its cause thats what your saying, "pugs are bad and cause they are bad you dont want to play with them."

That's all that you read? I think I said that hero's aren't the cause of PuGs failing and if I said something about PuGs I am certain I must have said something beyond 'bad' (actually I didn't even used that word to describe them recently) and explained a bit about why I don't like to play with them. Others have mentioned their reasons, but that escaped your attention.

You will not succeed in convincing people to go back to PuGs by ignoring why they don't like to play in PuGs (anymore).

Bryant Again · Sep 16, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

POST WAAARZ

I'm at work and bored. Sorry mods!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

you mean like anet? its guru, and its only 5 or 6 people posting here, who cares who agrees with who.

yes it will harm pugs cause you still need other people for some areas, and just cause i have a few reasons, does not many any of them are wrong.

You just admitted I'm right. You simply reiterated your claims, zero proof, zero back up, zero anything.

Until you do this, until you give actually *good* reasons why heroes are bad *and* you refute what I've said earlier (which you still haven't done, you've simply said "NUH UH!"), anything you say will have little to no merit. All you've done is chop up my posts and attack them out of context while still ignoring your biggest flaw: You have not shown me how adding 7 heroes would be damaging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

its not hard to become UAX, most people just buy UAX...

Not a safe assumption, since most people - not just in Guild Wars, but in the world - aren't very comfortable giving their credit card information over the internet. Not to mention people don't like having to spend more money on a game than is needed.

All in all, it's quite a lot of preference, but it's not very accurate saying "most of the GW population has purchased the UAX pack."

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

They are pve only to give a reason for titles, and no you dont need them, they do not give you a big enough boost to really matter.

You heard it here first, folks: Save Yourselves, Cry of Pain, There's Nothing To Fear, and many more OP PvE skills don't give you a big enough boost to "really matter".

Wooooooow. How about instead of saying "NO!" as a counter argument, you actually counter my argument?

Let me go first so you can get an idea:

Example 1: Party X and party Y are both in the Realm of Torment. In total, Party X only has 3 copies of Lightbringer's Gaze in the party. Party Y, on the other hand, has everyone bring a copy of Lightbringer's Gaze on their bar resulting in 8 Lightbringer's Gazes, resulting in quite a hefty amount of damage. Q: Which party is going to have an easier time in the Realm of Torment?

Example 2: Party A and party B are both going to go into Slaver's Exile at the same time. The Warriors in Party A only have "Watch Yourselves!" for defense, while both of Party B's Warriors have both "Watch Yourselves!" *and* "Save Yourselves!". Q: Which party is going to have an easier time of success?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

new players keep Wow up and running as well as hype...

Haha, oh WOW. First, who does Blizzard keep in mind when designing the raids and other endgame content? The newbies, the people who are halfway through leveling, the people who are only in greens and blues for their whole time at cap? No, it's all aimed towards the much more hardcore, long-standing portion of the playerbase.. Second, where do you think that hype comes from in the first place? From a large and continuous amount of content that WoW frequently sees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

and how is bioware out of context?

My Bioware point from way back when simply stated that you don't have to have people on your game 24/7 to get them to buy the next one. Bioware is simply just one of thousands of examples: If you enjoyed something from a company, any product, than you're likely to buy it from them again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Is the PvP in GW now, err was the pvp in GW good even when pve sucked? matter of fact the times you think pve was really bad "before heros" was when pvp was at its top. I dont think any 1 would play the pve in starcraft and their be a thread just like this in some starcraft forum about people wanting to be able to play online by their selfs with people telling them to just play the game in SP mode, something GW does not have.

You'll have to rewrite this, because it makes zero sense.

I will say, though, that Guild Wars has had a single-player mode from the very beginning: Henchmen. Heroes only make it easier for people with higher skill thresholds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no if the other guy is doing it better, he'll say "o i get it" if not thats why i said in the quote above that "no, hes not bad, hes retarded" if you sitting there watching some1 else do something way better then the way you have been doing it and you still say your way is better, your retarded

Good, so we can't worry about those "bad people" still refusing to ditch their "bad" heroes, something you said earlier that was something 7 heroes would cause?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who do you want them to pug with? every 1 else is using heros that know how to do it ...........

You just keep flipping arguments. First you didn't want 7 more heroes because it would somehow discourage less people to pug, then you stated that it was too easy, now it's that the "good players" don't want to pug?

Either way, you just contradicted yourself: The pugs shouldn't have much of a problem because the game is easy, right?...Right???

No, wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no the game is easy.

No, you're just ignorant. Stop making baseless claims. If the game was "so easy" the wiki wouldn't see so much use, ANet wouldn't have added the /help or /wiki commands, the campfire would have 0 posts in it, there would be no PvE split, and things like PvE skills wouldn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no you lose people when you make games harder like CoD does, giving NPCs 500 nades that they spam if you dont move out your cover so you get shot, Guild wars did this in a way giving bosses skills that cast faster than they should, and giving them 50 in some atts that kill you in 1 hit.

You lose more people when that's the *only* way to play it. If God of War was always set on God Mode it would be a different story, but that's not the case. It's what every smart game developer (not even "smart", it's more "not stupid") is doing: Providing *choice*. If it's too hard, then lower the difficulty, simple. If it's too easy, boost it up and give yourself more of a challenge. The problem lies when it's either *only* too easy or *only* too hard that it becomes bad. But difficulty settings are, quite frankly, genius.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

before you say it, yes a lot of people play CoD1-4, online.. with other players...

...AGAINST each other. NOT in a co-op mode, not in a "play against deh AIz!" mode, not in a terrorist hunt. They play *against* each other in hard, fast, brutal team or free-for-all deathmatches. PvP, while not always to everyone's tastes, will always provide larger replayability (save for very rare cases).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

k so why were your quoting random words "like" this.

You just ignored what I said, dude. They're not random. You're simply not reading correctly.

As to why I'm still replying here: I'm seeing how long it takes before I actually get an answer. All I've had is personal attacks, post chop ups, and in general things that further stall his answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

same now that i think about it, other than the raids and stuff that were made for groups of people "like DoA in GW" you dont really need people to do most of the quest etc in WoW.

In WoW, the only things you can solo are the explorable areas. To see the same thing in Guild Wars you would have to remove henchmen and disallow the use of heroes in every mission outpost.

Yes, you could "solo" WoW, but that content is pretty much at the bottom of the tree.

Oh, and in regards to the "group" elite content in GW: All you need is 1-2 other people who know their shit with heroes, although many find it just much easier to get a group of people for them (pro 7 heroes, in other words).

zwei2stein · Sep 16, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

JDRyder: Ponder about this, would you really want to play with someone who would ditch you for AI if it was viable for him? I wouldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Can't speak for WoW completely, but on my experience with it you could solo most content from what I've seen.

True and False. You can get far by soloing but it is much grindier way to do stuff. Grouping and doing group-based content gives you much faster quest completition, xp rate, better equipment, etc etc ... And since wow is game where levels and equipment matter big deal ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I do believe that the hero need should be removed though, such as a few Nightfall missions, Xandra and Kahma, and M.O.X. Sometimes you do get full human parties, but you'll have to exclude someone because of the hero need.

Yes, being forced to take hero instead of player is bad.

auch · Sep 16, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

this would really be amazing to have 7 heroes
i always have to use 3 heroes, 4 hench
and the hench are freaking stupid cant even control their skills or anything

JDRyder · Sep 16, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's all that you read? I think I said that hero's aren't the cause of PuGs failing and if I said something about PuGs I am certain I must have said something beyond 'bad' (actually I didn't even used that word to describe them recently) and explained a bit about why I don't like to play with them. Others have mentioned their reasons, but that escaped your attention.

You will not succeed in convincing people to go back to PuGs by ignoring why they don't like to play in PuGs (anymore).

so you saying new players not knowing every thing about the game means people dont want to play with them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You just admitted I'm right. You simply reiterated your claims, zero proof, zero back up, zero anything.

umm a few post ago people were saying they agree with some of my points, how is that not back up, and how does any thing i said in the post mean your right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Until you do this, until you give actually *good* reasons why heroes are bad *and* you refute what I've said earlier (which you still haven't done, you've simply said "NUH UH!"), anything you say will have little to no merit. All you've done is chop up my posts and attack them out of context while still ignoring your biggest flaw: You have not shown me how adding 7 heroes would be damaging.

i have, about 20 times now, where have you been?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Not a safe assumption, since most people - not just in Guild Wars, but in the world - aren't very comfortable giving their credit card information over the internet. Not to mention people don't like having to spend more money on a game than is needed.

hmm i guess thats why so many people use things like D2D, amazon, ebay etc for their games, cars, clothing etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

All in all, it's quite a lot of preference, but it's not very accurate saying "most of the GW population has purchased the UAX pack."

yes it is, most people ive met have said "i just got the UAX packs" mostly pve players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You heard it here first, folks: Save Yourselves, Cry of Pain, There's Nothing To Fear, and many more OP PvE skills don't give you a big enough boost to "really matter".

cause they dont, I almost never use them cause the non-pve only skills are just as good, and most of them only work in a few areas that have to do with that title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Haha, oh WOW. First, who does Blizzard keep in mind when designing the raids and other endgame content? The newbies, the people who are halfway through leveling, the people who are only in greens and blues for their whole time at cap? No, it's all aimed towards the much more hardcore, long-standing portion of the playerbase.. Second, where do you think that hype comes from in the first place? From a large and continuous amount of content that WoW frequently sees.

umm what? Wows only aimed at people that dont mind paying $15 a month.

The hype comes from this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLlxObAD_Y

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

My Bioware point from way back when simply stated that you don't have to have people on your game 24/7 to get them to buy the next one. Bioware is simply just one of thousands of examples: If you enjoyed something from a company, any product, than you're likely to buy it from them again.

what does that have to do with anything in my OP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You'll have to rewrite this, because it makes zero sense.

1st part was a joke to any pvpers that may be reading this cause they have really messed up GvG imo, and back when factions came out is when Pvp was at its best. I dont think any 1 would play pve in starcraft anyway, and if they added it no 1 would really care cause the only people that still play it is pro gamers that play for money or wanna be pro gamers that want to play for money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I will say, though, that Guild Wars has had a single-player mode from the very beginning: Henchmen. Heroes only make it easier for people with higher skill thresholds.

if they make it so easy why do you need 7 of them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Good, so we can't worry about those "bad people" still refusing to ditch their "bad" heroes, something you said earlier that was something 7 heroes would cause?

so your saying your to good for other players that may not be as skillful as you think you are? its pve you'll get over playing with a bad player now and than

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You just keep flipping arguments. First you didn't want 7 more heroes because it would somehow discourage less people to pug, then you stated that it was too easy, now it's that the "good players" don't want to pug?

thats not flipping thats having more than 1 reason, something you get asking for. they go together, people will not want to pug cause using the heros are easier, and any player that can do the mission "we'll just call him good" will not pug cause its easier to use heros, get it now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Either way, you just contradicted yourself: The pugs shouldn't have much of a problem because the game is easy, right?...Right???

any MMO game you can do in less than 5hrs is easy. in a few months of playing, any 1 will say "this game is easy" i guess you can call it hard for starting out players "aka pugs" but most of the players in game have played more than a month so the game is easy, and giving 7heros is not helping it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No, wrong.

NOU, sry had to do it XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No, you're just ignorant. Stop making baseless claims. If the game was "so easy" the wiki wouldn't see so much use, ANet wouldn't have added the /help or /wiki commands, the campfire would have 0 posts in it, there would be no PvE split, and things like PvE skills wouldn't exist.

who uses wiki? new players.

Most the stuff in campfire are post about new players asking for builds and then the new player getting spammed with "look at the sticky"

plus non of this means the game is hard, cause you can do the game w/o knowing a ton of shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You lose more people when that's the *only* way to play it. If God of War was always set on God Mode it would be a different story, but that's not the case. It's what every smart game developer (not even "smart", it's more "not stupid") is doing: Providing *choice*. If it's too hard, then lower the difficulty, simple. If it's too easy, boost it up and give yourself more of a challenge. The problem lies when it's either *only* too easy or *only* too hard that it becomes bad. But difficulty settings are, quite frankly, genius.

like letting NPCs kill you in 1 hit right? the HM that they came up with was just sloppy content cause they didnt want to take the hard road and give them builds with 8 good skills, and better IA on using them, all they did to make it "harder" was to add DPS and set a few rules about not standing next to their team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...AGAINST each other. NOT in a co-op mode, not in a "play against deh AIz!" mode, not in a terrorist hunt. They play *against* each other in hard, fast, brutal team or free-for-all deathmatches. PvP, while not always to everyone's tastes, will always provide larger replayability (save for very rare cases).

umm no shit? thats what i said. Also im not 100% sure cause i play the PC CoD4 but i think in most console games you can co-op.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You just ignored what I said, dude. They're not random. You're simply not reading correctly.

no i didnt, your doing a * or a " just about every other word in more your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As to why I'm still replying here: I'm seeing how long it takes before I actually get an answer. All I've had is personal attacks, post chop ups, and in general things that further stall his answer.

QQ ive not done any Personal attacks, all your post have been is you call me names, w/o making any points, no saying green is a color is not a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In WoW, the only things you can solo are the explorable areas. To see the same thing in Guild Wars you would have to remove henchmen and disallow the use of heroes in every mission outpost.

umm i think you can party up with people in the explorable areas... plus its not needed any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yes, you could "solo" WoW, but that content is pretty much at the bottom of the tree.

so your saying green is a color?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Oh, and in regards to the "group" elite content in GW: All you need is 1-2 other people who know their shit with heroes, although many find it just much easier to get a group of people for them (pro 7 heroes, in other words).

still need some1 else to do it with, only reason i think they didnt lock heros in some elite areas is because they were to lazy to make the code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

JDRyder: Ponder about this, would you really want to play with someone who would ditch you for AI if it was viable for him? I wouldn't.

why would he play with me then? people can already solo.

DreamWind · Sep 16, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

7 heroes are good for the occasional "oh well my friends aren't on and I'm bored", or for PvPers that can't make friends.

But seriously, why do you all need so many heroes? Isn't Guild Wars all about doing shit with your Guilds, or at least your friends??

Yea see this is my entire problem with the thing. It isn't that I don't like 7 heroes neccessarily, its that I don't like the entire direction the game has gone. In the beginning solo play was NOT promoted. In fact solo play was NEVER promoted in this game. It was always considered something you COULD do as opposed to the main idea of teaming with your Guild/friends/Pugs or whoever else to create a sense of community and teamwork and accomplishment.

Nowadays Anet and its players have turned the game into a Solo mission that might as well be an offline video game. And they want it to be MORE solo! It sounds like they wouldn't mind if guilds and pugs completely disappeared from the game as long as they can solo the game.

So like I said, it isn't so much that I care about 7 heroes. Its that I think the direction of the game has turned to garbage. The game was supposed to be about Guilds, not about a bunch of solo farmers.

eximiis · Sep 16, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if they make it so easy why do you need 7 of them?

Just for the fun of it ??? we don't want 7 heroes because the game is hard. this is non-sense.

we want theme for the fun of using a 7 heroes party customize for me !!!!

We don't want to play with you, we want to play with heroes.....

7 heroes will keep a lot of ppl. and stop saying to go read the threat, we all read it and you have Not even 1 good reason for no heroes. !!

R.Shayne · Sep 16, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yes, being forced to take hero instead of player is bad.

I think even ANET realized this because they removed that in GW:EN.

I was doing Lab space and decided I would take someone with me I saw in Rata Sum asking to join a group. I had to tell them how to ping a build and this is what he pinged.

The screen shot came from Eye of the North when the person asked if a friend could join us for Heart of the Shiverpeak and when he pinged his skills it was the exact same build the other guy had.

They had no skills unlocked for their heroes, Ogden still had the same skill set he came with when you first get him as a hero.

It would have been nice if I could have loaded six heroes, pinged each of their builds, then showed him how much easier the game is if you have a group setup to work together.

(DD was fun too, had to try explain body blocking.)

Bryant Again · Sep 17, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm a few post ago people were saying they agree with some of my points, how is that not back up, and how does any thing i said in the post mean your right?

i have, about 20 times now, where have you been?

/sigh.

Thought we went over this? Just because people are agreeing with you proves nothing, just like the poll proves nothing. If you consider someone else agreeing with you as "proof" then you need to retract about what you said about looking at the polls as "proof".

The reason I'm right is because you're not giving me any proof. You're *still* not giving me proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

hmm i guess thats why so many people use things like D2D, amazon, ebay etc for their games, cars, clothing etc.

You didn't read what I said correctly. See the sixth word in the portion of the post you quoted? "Most"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes it is, most people ive met have said "i just got the UAX packs" mostly pve players.

So lemme get this straight:
-Most of the people YOU'VE met bought the UAX packs.
-Therefore, most people have bought the UAX packs.

That's a logical fallacy, sadly, and a perfect example of one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

cause they dont, I almost never use them cause the non-pve only skills are just as good, and most of them only work in a few areas that have to do with that title.

See? You're still simply just saying "NUH UH!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm what? Wows only aimed at people that dont mind paying $15 a month.

The hype comes from this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLlxObAD_Y

So people are just going to pay $15/mo for a game that they don't enjoy? I see.

And how do you think they even hired someone like Mr. T in the first place? That would have to require a hefty and steady income from quite a lot of subscribers - and at which point, how do you think they ever get so many players in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

what does that have to do with anything in my OP?

You tell me, Ryder. You were the one to re-reference it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

if they make it so easy why do you need 7 of them?

If you'd been reading my later posts you would see that I've never ever mentioned 7 heroes as a need. It's always been a want, and giving how little evidence *you've* given and all of the facts *I've* given it would be a very harmless one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

so your saying your to good for other players that may not be as skillful as you think you are? its pve you'll get over playing with a bad player now and than

...I'm pretty sure that's not what I said. Oh well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

thats not flipping thats having more than 1 reason, something you get asking for. they go together, people will not want to pug cause using the heros are easier, and any player that can do the mission "we'll just call him good" will not pug cause its easier to use heros, get it now?

It's different when you're saying "this is just one of many reasons why more heroes are bad" as opposed to "THIS is why more heroes are bad".

And still bear in mind one of my points: Using heroes is only easy when you have all the tools you needs, and as I've previously shown that's not as easy process to do (actually, not an easy process at all). This would be different if builds were easy to put together and the gear simply to get, but it's not. It's both expensive and/or time consuming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

any MMO game you can do in less than 5hrs is easy. in a few months of playing, any 1 will say "this game is easy" i guess you can call it hard for starting out players "aka pugs" but most of the players in game have played more than a month so the game is easy, and giving 7heros is not helping it

That would have to be if everyone followed the exact same learning curve. They don't. 1 month of casual play will not net you the same amount of experience and skill that it takes to complete DoA on hard mode.

Nonetheless, I think you're grossly overestimating the skill level of the majority of the GW playerbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

who uses wiki? new players.

Most the stuff in campfire are post about new players asking for builds and then the new player getting spammed with "look at the sticky"

plus non of this means the game is hard, cause you can do the game w/o knowing a ton of shit.

-The wiki has a *ton* of information about the game, providing info and strategy for every single mission in the game. New players aren't the only people that are going to find a use for it.

-Wow, you make such a baseless claim when the contrary is 3 clicks away? Took me all but 2 minutes to find out that this is far from reality.

-I think we've already discussed this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

like letting NPCs kill you in 1 hit right? the HM that they came up with was just sloppy content cause they didnt want to take the hard road and give them builds with 8 good skills, and better IA on using them, all they did to make it "harder" was to add DPS and set a few rules about not standing next to their team.

It's definitely not the best solution - but it's *easily* understandable. When you think about it and take everything into account, giving over a thousand monsters good builds and tweaking their AI according to those builds is quite a shitload of work.

While it's definitely not a "preferred method" of increasing the challenge of the game, it's most certainly made the game a bit more challenging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm no shit? thats what i said. Also im not 100% sure cause i play the PC CoD4 but i think in most console games you can co-op.

Then reference to those. For awhile you've been proving apples with oranges which is just, well, funny. But either way, it's going to be the same thing: Facing X problem. The environment is always static, never changing, but when you join a PvP match you never really know what you're going to go up against.

That's why many who like competitive games found them so replayable. You won't know what your opponent will use, and how they'll use it. The same can't be said of player vs. AI, because the AI always falls into patterns. You don't see Halo 3 still being as popular as it is today because of it's online co-op.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no i didnt, your doing a * or a " just about every other word in more your post.

Refresh your literary knowledge in an composition course.

When you see me *star* something, it's meant to be taking with emphasis. When you see it in quotations, it's meant to not be taken as its literal meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

QQ ive not done any Personal attacks, all your post have been is you call me names, w/o making any points, no saying green is a color is not a point.

Quoted for irony. Extra points if you quote this segment saying the exact same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

umm i think you can party up with people in the explorable areas... plus its not needed any way.

Too bad that's entirely and completely not the point of what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

so your saying green is a color?

It's actually more like saying that "poop brown" is a color. Sure, it's a color, but certainly not as enjoyable as say "lipstick pink".

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

still need some1 else to do it with, only reason i think they didnt lock heros in some elite areas is because they were to lazy to make the code.

To sum all of this up, since most of it is entirely off-topic: You need to start giving a bit more backup to your claims, otherwise you're just further proving everything I say. Saying "I've already told you" is proving me right, trying to dispute the power of PvE skills is totally ridiculous and further helps me, and moreso than the rest is the fact that heroes are not easy to set up (it's easy for us because we have all of the tools). And if you chop up my posts then you're just dodging the questions and further proving my point.

If you can really show me how "weak" PvE skills are and how accessible and simple it is to set up a good team of heroes - simply "buying the packs" isn't a good reason, as seen above - then I'll start giving you credit. Otherwise, you've done nothing.

I'm not going to respond to any of the rest of the gibberish you quote. I'd much rather you felt "right and superior" on discussions that don't matter rather than something actually meaningful.

FyrFytr998 · Sep 17, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Holy Crap!!

How did this pipe dream of a concept make it to 83 pages?

Bryant Again · Sep 17, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

It's a pretty close subject. The only response we've gotten from ANet is pretty much "we don't want to do it".

Age · Sep 17, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

I voted yes depending on how well GW is doing after a few months of release of GW2.I would say no if it is doing fine but for now No and it would be nice if there was more credit for pugging.

^
^
Our Waffle thread goes up to over 300 pages sort of like MSN talk thread.

credit · Sep 17, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

If I'm going to be PvEing with Heroes and Henchmen, I'd rather just have 7 heroes.

I'm all for 7 heroes.

Inner Salbat · Sep 17, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you can really show me how "weak" PvE skills are and how accessible and simple it is to set up a good team of heroes - simply "buying the packs" isn't a good reason, as seen above - then I'll start giving you credit. Otherwise, you've done nothing.

Let's see Pain Inverter (The instant gib of the GW world or at least one of them).

Frozen Elemental (Hard Mode & Normal Node) casted before agro - instant death most of the time.

Ruby Djinn (Hard Mode & Normal Node) casted before agro - drops it's HP to less than 15% killed by 1 wand. - it becomes harder when you have more than just the 1 in the mob as long as you can kill 1 fast your okay most of the time with the other.

There is a Necro boss I do apologize by I've completely forgotten his name, he is around the Sunspear Sanctuary area somewhere he is one of those type that like to pop out of the ground, my reaction to that was almost instant it's a boss it requires attention at any rate it went like this, pop up -> pain inverter = dead the battle couldn't have lasted less than a second.

Podaltur the Angry - Oh my what a nightmare I kicked his ass with h/h but it left me so DPed and I had no power stones to remove it, I killed it by skillful tactics of let the henchmen die, leave a hero for rez out of range and use myself as the tank pain inverter was the key skill that killed him because I used it ageist him, if your going to kill my entire party in one hit your going to pay a price for it.

PvE skills are anything but weak which is why heroes aren't allowed to use them and never should be, for the exception of I think LoD.

JDRyder · Sep 17, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Thought we went over this? Just because people are agreeing with you proves nothing, just like the poll proves nothing. If you consider someone else agreeing with you as "proof" then you need to retract about what you said about looking at the polls as "proof".

yep agreed, its just guru and now of the really matters, but i only said some people agree with me as proof as some people agree with me cause you said no1 does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The reason I'm right is because you're not giving me any proof. You're *still* not giving me proof.

what do you want for proof? theres nothing any1 can do on forums to prove anything really, when it comes to something like guild wars that is

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You didn't read what I said correctly. See the sixth word in the portion of the post you quoted? "Most"?

thats not most, just about every 1 has used Ebay, amazon or something like it. Buying stuff of the internet is a everyday thing to people now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So lemme get this straight:
-Most of the people YOU'VE met bought the UAX packs.
-Therefore, most people have bought the UAX packs.

That's a logical fallacy, sadly, and a perfect example of one.

well what do you want me to say "just about every 1 i meet has got the UAX packs, but no1 buys them" ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

See? You're still simply just saying "NUH UH!"

and your like "YA UH!" i dont use pve skills that much, ive tryed them and like non pve skills most time so, what do you want me to say, "i never use PVE skills but they are very overpowered and useful" ? I dont find them as useful as you do, i dont see the hold up. Do you like blue better than red?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So people are just going to pay $15/mo for a game that they don't enjoy? I see.

thats WoW for you. SURE some people like it, like the people that get in the MLG and stuff, but ive met more people that dont like it and have played/playing it. Dont get me wrong, I flame all over people that talk shit about WoW and have not played it, but i also dont care if people like it or not. I like GW better cause im able to play more classes, and i liked the pvp better

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And how do you think they even hired someone like Mr. T in the first place? That would have to require a hefty and steady income from quite a lot of subscribers - and at which point, how do you think they ever get so many players in the first place?

It was also 1 of 1st MMOs, and the better MMO when it came out, so it got most the people when the 1st MMOs were starting out, plus SWG really F***ed up with its updates and a lot of people went to WoW, Also its had hype before Mr T, it was the rated as the best game for PC on Gamespot for some time, thats why i tryed it. Now i know not to go by their ratings "cough GTA4"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You tell me, Ryder. You were the one to re-reference it.

what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you'd been reading my later posts you would see that I've never ever mentioned 7 heroes as a need. It's always been a want, and giving how little evidence *you've* given and all of the facts *I've* given it would be a very harmless one.

so your just posting cause you dont like me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...I'm pretty sure that's not what I said. Oh well?

its not what you said but its what your mean. How many times have you said "pugs are bad" and "i dont want to play with Pugs" ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's different when you're saying "this is just one of many reasons why more heroes are bad" as opposed to "THIS is why more heroes are bad".

so you agree i have reasons now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And still bear in mind one of my points: Using heroes is only easy when you have all the tools you needs, and as I've previously shown that's not as easy process to do (actually, not an easy process at all). This would be different if builds were easy to put together and the gear simply to get, but it's not. It's both expensive and/or time consuming.

i dont give my heros shit, maybe if i loot something im to lazy to sell ill give it to them. I just give them a modded cookie cutter build like SF for a ele or something, and its good to go. If you really want to mod them you can, but its not holding you back from any thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That would have to be if everyone followed the exact same learning curve. They don't. 1 month of casual play will not net you the same amount of experience and skill that it takes to complete DoA on hard mode.

I didnt say he would be as good as a player thats been playing for years, but hes just as able to do things like DoA, fow, UW etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Nonetheless, I think you're grossly overestimating the skill level of the majority of the GW playerbase.

I think most of them suck and the areas are easy, but are good cause of the standard of player today, if you were to put the standard of player today next to the standard when factions came out you'd see how bad ursan messed up players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-The wiki has a *ton* of information about the game, providing info and strategy for every single mission in the game. New players aren't the only people that are going to find a use for it.

-Wow, you make such a baseless claim when the contrary is 3 clicks away? Took me all but 2 minutes to find out that this is far from reality.

-I think we've already discussed this.

i mean pvx wiki, hell even i use the GW wiki a ton.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's definitely not the best solution - but it's *easily* understandable. When you think about it and take everything into account, giving over a thousand monsters good builds and tweaking their AI according to those builds is quite a shitload of work.

yep, coding game takes a shit ton of work. Just about every game that comes out now uses that sloppy content, and then put more money in to ads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

While it's definitely not a "preferred method" of increasing the challenge of the game, it's most certainly made the game a bit more challenging.

yea and it made it as fun as getting hit by a car at 70MPH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then reference to those. For awhile you've been proving apples with oranges which is just, well, funny. But either way, it's going to be the same thing: Facing X problem. The environment is always static, never changing, but when you join a PvP match you never really know what you're going to go up against.

have you seen pvp a match today? its about a 5% chance that its not going to be 2 wars, 1 ranger, dom mes, water mes, woh monk, RC monk, and rit flager. part of why it was better back than cause you never knew what was going to come but today its just a meta build that every 1 uses, and if they are not, your mostly going to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's why many who like competitive games found them so replayable. You won't know what your opponent will use, and how they'll use it. The same can't be said of player vs. AI, because the AI always falls into patterns. You don't see Halo 3 still being as popular as it is today because of it's online co-op.

no you know what the other team is going to use in pvp in todays pvp, the meta or some crappy shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Too bad that's entirely and completely not the point of what I said.

didnt you say "you cant"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

To sum all of this up, since most of it is entirely off-topic: You need to start giving a bit more backup to your claims, otherwise you're just further proving everything I say. Saying "I've already told you" is proving me right, trying to dispute the power of PvE skills is totally ridiculous and further helps me, and moreso than the rest is the fact that heroes are not easy to set up (it's easy for us because we have all of the tools). And if you chop up my posts then you're just dodging the questions and further proving my point.

[QUOTE=Bryant Again]Thought we went over this? Just because people are agreeing with you proves nothing, just like the poll proves nothing[QUOTE] no, by saying "i already told you" means you just asked a Q i already answered, like if i say 2+2=4 and you ask "whats 1+1" and i say 2 and then you ask "whats 2+2"

and no pve skills only give you like 5% more power and are less flexible.

if i chop your post down its cause it had nothing to do with anything and i dont feel like answering how enjoyable saying "lipstick pick" is to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you can really show me how "weak" PvE skills are and how accessible and simple it is to set up a good team of heroes - simply "buying the packs" isn't a good reason, as seen above - then I'll start giving you credit. Otherwise, you've done nothing.

did you read any of them, and look for a non-pve only skill that does about the same thing. Many non-pve only skills do just about the same thing as the pve only skills, some times better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'm not going to respond to any of the rest of the gibberish you quote. I'd much rather you felt "right and superior" on discussions that don't matter rather than something actually meaningful.

its not about ego, its a discussion, matter of fact it says so in the title, if you stop posting to some1 cause they are disagreeing with you, than you were in it for ego not the discussion.

plus what ever happen to the PMs? you sent me a PM saying you wanted to have a discussion about this and ive yet get a PM back after the 1st PM i sent.

Bryant Again · Sep 17, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

As promised, I'm not going to answer to any of the dribble but to what I consider the most key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

and your like "YA UH!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Heroes are far from easy to use. To use them to their best proficency, you have to outfit them accordingly to the best detail with the appropriate runes. You need to know how to put together skills from different professions. You need to *have* all those skills for those builds. You have to know what skills are used right by Heroes. And you have to know how to deal with hero/hench AI. Quite frankly that's a shit load of work, especially moreso given the fact that we're talking about the average player.

-Again, PvE skills. You may not think they're needed since you think the game is already "too easy" (read below for my comments on that), but they're PvE-only for a very good reason: they, in themselves, make up for a lack of player skills. More than 3 PvE skills in a team > 3 PvE skills in a team, and that is simply irrefutable.

Not just a "yah huh": A "yah huh, now here's WHY". Huge difference. "Just about every 1 has used Ebay, amazon or something like it" is such a bogus statement that I won't even touch it (lawlz too late!)

Most GW players don't use the online store for numerous reasons, but largely it's game they don't need. What can you get from the store as a casual player? More slots? Pointless when you're only playing with a couple. All skills? Not very useful when you're just playing simply through a campaign as one profession. Vanity skins? Little point, save for the max weapon ones (but even then it's considered a waste of moolah).

(note: this is all based on specifics nick'd the "rule of casuals")

I still see you doing your "nuh uh's", though. Back up why you don't see PvE skills too "useful". For me personally I don't need to rely on them. I fully understand that PvE skills are quite good but I don't need a crutch.

In the meantime, try answering these simple (hopefully) questions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Example 1: Party X and party Y are both in the Realm of Torment. In total, Party X only has 3 copies of Lightbringer's Gaze in the party. Party Y, on the other hand, has everyone bring a copy of Lightbringer's Gaze on their bar resulting in 8 Lightbringer's Gazes, resulting in quite a hefty amount of damage. Q: Which party is going to have an easier time in the Realm of Torment?

Example 2: Party A and party B are both going to go into Slaver's Exile at the same time. The Warriors in Party A only have "Watch Yourselves!" for defense, while both of Party B's Warriors have both "Watch Yourselves!" *and* "Save Yourselves!". Q: Which party is going to have an easier time of success?

"Not needed" is not an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

plus what ever happen to the PMs? you sent me a PM saying you wanted to have a discussion about this and ive yet get a PM back after the 1st PM i sent.

There was just too much travesty too ignore.

And I can agree with discussion - but there wasn't any, hence why I stopped. I see that hasn't stopped you, though.

Inner Salbat · Sep 17, 2008, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

like GW better cause im able to play more classes, and i liked the pvp better

Ahuh.. smoking gun your PvP nut well guess what no one here wants your little delicate world lottory PvP to be invaded by even 1 hero let alone 7 of them, and if they where to even think of proposing the idea I would be the first to say no, we are talking about exclusively enabling it for PvE so go back to your lotto game have fun, and get out of my face.

pamelf · Sep 17, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I do understand that people would like to run 7 heroes.

Arguments like 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced' are partly true.
I know a seasoned 8-human group would easily beat the 1+7 group.
However, I don't think people that have the posibility to form a seasoned 8-human group are the ones asking for 7 heroes.

Hero AI is good at one thing: timing.
Both interrupting and certain spike build (pre-nerf GvG Discord team for example).
While it's very possible to do the same (and better) with full human teams, it's a very powerfull tool, specially considering that the player him/herself does not need a lot of skill to play such builds.

Now, with two human players and 4 heroes people would have about the same result as with 7 heroes.
So there is no reason there to deny a 7 hero team.

However, do we really need 7 heroes?
The main pro-hero arguments are the following I think:
- Hench AI is broken
While they are not as good as heroes, it was possible to hench prophecies and factions. Same for H&H nightfall and EotN.
- Certain areas/quests are difficult/impossible with hench
This is true, but only limited to a few specific areas (FoW/UW access from ToA Normal Mode comes in mind) and quests.
- People want to play solo and not wait to team up with someone else
Well, don't buy a MMORPG/CORPG!

So while 7 heroes would be nice, there is absolutely no need.

If you want game improvement, stop asking for ideas that would turn the game in a single player game (even more than it is now) and start asking for things that would improve teaming up with other people.
I know A-net implemented the party search, however, there is a lot more that can be done here.
I'm mainly thinking about scheduling and a posibility to watch/place party requests in a certain outpost while not being there yourself.

JDRyder, may I suggest you read this post from page 5 I think it is... While I don't agree with everything this person has written it is succinctly put, with reasons for his/her opinion. My opinion may be different to theirs, but I can see where their thoughts are coming from and therefore try to gain an understanding of what their mindset is behind their opinion, leading to an intelligent discussion/argument over the merits of both sides.

In order to contribute to a discussion with such a stoic argument you need to be able to give us a valid counter argument. Bryant Again is giving valid points at every turn, and none of your counters are actually 'countering' him. You are also making sweeping generalizations about who does what on the internet which is clearly not helping your cause.

You have yet to illustrate why 7 heroes will affect gameplay in general, and PUGs in general. So far the counter points have far outweighed your original points.

Simple questions which you can answer:

Why will 7 heroes mean a decrease in PUGs as most players who don't like to PUG don't already and get by with H/H or guildees?

Quote:

i dont give my heros shit, maybe if i loot something im to lazy to sell ill give it to them. I just give them a modded cookie cutter build like SF for a ele or something, and its good to go. If you really want to mod them you can, but its not holding you back from any thing

What of those of us who do mod our heroes and treat them as viable members of our party? Should our gameplay be punished just because you choose not to utilize a game mechanic?

Could you, for the sake of discussion just dot point your major objections to 7 heroes? I would like to see them put succinctly as it's difficult to get a sense of your argument through all the quoting and off topic discussion about PVE skills and console co-op games.

Inner Salbat · Sep 17, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

"- People want to play solo and not wait to team up with someone else
Well, don't buy a MMORPG/CORPG!"

I could post the picture again but I think we all know what it says on the box now and we all have a box to look at too, HAD the game said that soloing was not an option that you had to do everything with people I would have walked away and not brought it.

The reason soloing is important especially to a new game even more so a new company is you don't know how successful your product is going to be, so you need options in there for those that do play to get there moneys worth, and to spread by word of mouth how good the game is, while that happens there has to be something enjoyable to do.

When a game winds down like GW is you need to look after the customers that are still playing or they will leave discontent or content up to the individual how they feel, personal for myself discontent because I haven't yet completed all the content on the table.

DreamWind · Sep 17, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

I could post the picture again but I think we all know what it says on the box now and we all have a box to look at too, HAD the game said that soloing was not an option that you had to do everything with people I would have walked away and not brought it.

You have posted this numerous times and it has been refuted successfully numerous times...What is pictured on the box has no bearing on what the game is now. I can probably name 5 things on the Prophecies box that aren't in the game today. Not to mention, soloing IS an option as it stands now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

When a game winds down like GW is you need to look after the customers that are still playing or they will leave discontent or content up to the individual how they feel, personal for myself discontent because I haven't yet completed all the content on the table.

With Anet's current market plan, they really couldn't care less about current customers right now. They can say they do, but really they don't too much. All that matters is they keep everyone just happy enough to buy Guild Wars 2. Hell...they could even promise 7 heroes in Guild Wars 2 as an incentive to buy it.